The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

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Chadrho

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and if one believes that Jesus Christ has had the victory that would mean for believers or unbelievers, they are saved from hell, death, satan, sin

We're saved from the destructive nature of sin and evil, which tend toward non-being. The consuming fire of God is God, it is divine love redeeming what belongs to God. The Logos (hypostasis of divine wisdom) of God is both the means of creation and the means of reconciliation. The incarnation, death, and resurrection are the revelation of God's love and power as well as the means of uniting God and humanity (theosis).

But we are not saved from suffering. Death to self and the passions entails suffering, either now or later. This is why Paul says- If we suffer with Christ we will be glorified with him. The early church understood that self-denial and detachment from the passions that destroy us is essential to faith. It's not works righteousness but death to the illusion (old man). We take off the old man and put on Christ. God will not lose anything given to the Son who has been given authority over all flesh. Hence, we will all be salted with fire (divine love). Catharsis/healing is an act of divine love whether it happens now or later.

If we are in Christ, this age is a gentle death to self as we go through the process of sanctification under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we don't consent to death of self now, in the next age we will be confronted with a more intimate experience of divine love. When we enter pure, unmitigated love and yet are still clinging to sin and evil, that death will be more excruciating because we will have no way to avoid it. The illusory self we have created in the image of our desires will be destroyed in the presence of pure, unmitigated love so that we suffer the loss of what we thought we were. As the illusion painfully dies, we will see the truth and the reality of divine love. In seeing we will freely choose the good for which we are created. But waiting until the next age is foolish since the good for which we are created is revealed and the suffering of this age cannot compared to the glory or suffering of the next, depending on whether we are in Christ, the means of our creation and redemption.

That's the general outlook as it was understood by those influenced by the Alexandrian school (Clement, Origen, Nyssan, Evagrious, etc.). I know it's not the usual way we think about the faith and the afterlife, but it helps to understand the basic idea, I think. It's not like I walk into heaven and see my grandmother (a saint to be sure) and Hitler playing checkers. If Hitler endures the fire of God, what comes out in the other side will not be Hitler (the illusory self created from sin and self-will) but the image God created and brought to fulfillment in Christ. Essentially, grandma will be in the age of life, until Hitler and the rest are purified in the age of punishment, after which (after all has been subjected to Christ) Christ will hand the purified kingdom to God, who will be all in all eternally.
 

MatthewG

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We're saved from the destructive nature of sin and evil, which tend toward non-being. The consuming fire of God is God, it is divine love redeeming what belongs to God. The Logos (hypostasis of divine wisdom) of God is both the means of creation and the means of reconciliation. The incarnation, death, and resurrection are the revelation of God's love and power as well as the means of uniting God and humanity (theosis).
Hello again Chadrho,

Okay.
But we are not saved from suffering. Death to self and the passions entails suffering, either now or later. This is why Paul says- If we suffer with Christ we will be glorified with him. The early church understood that self-denial and detachment from the passions that destroy us is essential to faith. It's not works righteousness but death to the illusion (old man). We take off the old man and put on Christ. God will not lose anything given to the Son who has been given authority over all flesh. Hence, we will all be salted with fire (divine love). Catharsis/healing is an act of divine love whether it happens now or later.
Okay.
If we are in Christ, this age is a gentle death to self as we go through the process of sanctification under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we don't consent to death of self now, in the next age we will be confronted with a more intimate experience of divine love. When we enter pure, unmitigated love and yet are still clinging to sin and evil, that death will be more excruciating because we will have no way to avoid it. The illusory self we have created in the image of our desires will be destroyed in the presence of pure, unmitigated love so that we suffer the loss of what we thought we were. As the illusion painfully dies, we will see the truth and the reality of divine love. In seeing we will freely choose the good for which we are created. But waiting until the next age is foolish since the good for which we are created is revealed and the suffering of this age cannot compared to the glory or suffering of the next, depending on whether we are in Christ, the means of our creation and redemption.
Okay.
That's the general outlook as it was understood by those influenced by the Alexandrian school (Clement, Origen, Nyssan, Evagrious, etc.). I know it's not the usual way we think about the faith and the afterlife, but it helps to understand the basic idea, I think. It's not like I walk into heaven and see my grandmother (a saint to be sure) and Hitler playing checkers. If Hitler endures the fire of God, what comes out in the other side will not be Hitler (the illusory self created from sin and self-will) but the image God created and brought to fulfillment in Christ. Essentially, grandma will be in the age of life, until Hitler and the rest are purified in the age of punishment, after which (after all has been subjected to Christ) Christ will hand the purified kingdom to God, who will be all in all eternally.
I dont know whether to believe these people or not, so... it is all speculation at the end.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts of what you believe and see, hope you can understand why I said what I did as well.

Peace unto you,
Matthew
 
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Chadrho

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Hello again Chadrho,

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

I dont know whether to believe these people or not, so...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts of what you believe and see, hope you can understand why I said what I did as well.

I do and appreciate you taking the time to read it.


Perhaps as individuals of the kingdom, you are able to go help those who are in darkness to come to the light, though the flame of fire of truth may be to painful for them to bear and could take some time to get them there

Yes, this makes sense to me. I pretty much assume we are being trained now, at least in part, to continue the ministry of reconciliation in the next age (Paul talks about ages to come in Ephesians so it could be plural). What does it mean to reign in the age to come if not as servants of the Lord's kingdom and his goodness?
 

teamventure

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On the contrary.
What I know is not anti-biblical, it is anti-doctrinal. Not all doctrine is good. Right?
Historical evidence proves that the Bible is not inerrant. (free from error) We have to live with that.
Perhaps you need to learn how to eat the meat and spit out the bones. (in reference to doctrine)
Nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism.

To be clear, I love the Bible. I use it every day.
But it's a poor replacement for a relationship with God.
Some Christians worship a god of paper and ink with a leather-bound cover.
The word of God and a relationship with him are inseparable. You can't have one without the other. Those who say they have God but knock his word as recorded in scripture make me wonder what Jesus they are following.
 
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teamventure

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...and the destruction of Christianity continues at a rapid pace!

Teamventure and the illustrious 'Jack' - two peas in the same pod.
Destruction?
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Matthew 24:35 NIV
 

Jack

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JW'S use any translation. The bible is full of errors. It's a fact that one reason, among many reasons people leave 'Christianity' is, the nonsense of an error free bible.
Then you can't believe any of it!
Steve is right - the bible shows 3 things. Deal with it and sort it out for yourself. STOP attributing everything you disagree with to Satan! He loves you more than you think for what you do.
IOW: Pick and choose the parts you like!
 

Jack

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...and the destruction of Christianity continues at a rapid pace!

Teamventure and the illustrious 'Jack' - two peas in the same pod.
You're attacking the Bible just like Satan does! Such irony!
 
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Jack

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Yes, im not so sure that judgement deals with us today. I believe everything has been fulfilled, yes.

However the kingdom of God has yet to stop growing.

Chapter 21-22, are considered renewnal chapters.
If Preterism wasn't so sad and ridiculous it would be hilarious.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Hell is done away with now today according to the bible but its subjective if you believe so or not.

“And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls — according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬-‭15‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

The Revelation doesnt end here.
No. That's not how truth works. Here is how it works.

Someone makes a truth claim, which is true if it corresponds to reality. If not, then it isn't true. Truth is never subjective.

The answer to the question you raise depends on the sequence of events. The Great White Throne event takes place after the Second Coming of Christ and After the Millennial Period. Neither of these events has taken place, so the GWT has not occurred.
 

MatthewG

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Either, those verses have happened or they haven't, people believe subjectively @CadyandZoe.

Objectively, Jesus Christ was coming, along with the wrath of God with Judgement on a nation that killed his Son, whom was perfect, and he was to take his bride, along with the doing away with Satan, False Prophet, and Beast, and even hell and death.

Either those things happened or they haven't and subjectively people believe what they will.

I personally believe the objectivity of the truth, and subjectively believe they have occured within the 40 years promised by the Messiah.

Peace be to you,
Matthew
 

Jack

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Either, those verses have happened or they haven't, people believe subjectively @CadyandZoe.

Objectively, Jesus Christ was coming, along with the wrath of God with Judgement on a nation that killed his Son, whom was perfect, and he was to take his bride, along with the doing away with Satan, False Prophet, and Beast, and even hell and death.

Either those things happened or they haven't and subjectively people believe what they will.

I personally believe the objectivity of the truth, and subjectively believe they have occured within the 40 years promised by the Messiah.

Peace be to you,
Matthew
Preterists have a HUGE surprise dead ahead!

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Either, those verses have happened or they haven't, people believe subjectively @CadyandZoe.

Objectively, Jesus Christ was coming, along with the wrath of God with Judgement on a nation that killed his Son, whom was perfect, and he was to take his bride, along with the doing away with Satan, False Prophet, and Beast, and even hell and death.

Either those things happened or they haven't and subjectively people believe what they will.

I personally believe the objectivity of the truth, and subjectively believe they have occured within the 40 years promised by the Messiah.

Peace be to you,
Matthew
Why mention subjectivity?
 

CadyandZoe

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What would the be purpose of concealing it?
Well, it goes without saying, that's all. :) It's like saying, "Tuesday follows Monday." This is true but everyone knows it.
Since everyone knows that belief is subjective, I wondered if you had more in mind. I'm not being critical, just curious.
 

MatthewG

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Well, it goes without saying, that's all. :) It's like saying, "Tuesday follows Monday." This is true but everyone knows it.
Since everyone knows that belief is subjective, I wondered if you had more in mind. I'm not being critical, just curious.

Where you able to understand objectivity and subjectivity point in the prior statement?
 

Jack

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It's one thing to not know for sure about the eternal Hell fire clearly defined in the Christian Bible. Some new Christians don't know for sure. It's quite another to insist on removing it from the Bible because you don't like it. The consequences can be eternally DEADLY!

Revelation 22
19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 20
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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St. SteVen

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The word of God and a relationship with him are inseparable. You can't have one without the other. Those who say they have God but knock his word as recorded in scripture make me wonder what Jesus they are following.
As you hopefully know, Hebrews chapter 11 is the faith chapter.
How many of those listed had a Bible? How many had a relationship with God?
 

St. SteVen

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Here's the thing. Should we really be saying this on a public forum...

When are people going to realize that when the world sees us belittling one another, it reflects upon all of us - ALL of Christianity. One reason why the world has such an unfavorable opinion of us.
Well said, thanks.
 
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Jack

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...and the destruction of Christianity continues at a rapid pace!

Teamventure and the illustrious 'Jack' - two peas in the same pod.
Your personal attacks are a smokescreen because you avoid Scripture.