The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[face2face]

KJV is quite unique. Many swear by it, but not me. I cut my teeth on it, but it was difficult dealing with thee, thou, doest, sayest, pisseth, lol. But the main Biblical doctrines are quite clear, Jesus is God, Hell is eternal and Jesus is THE Savior.

Quite clear
Not sure of how clear the water is in your neck of the woods.. but if it's quite clear, you are lucky to be alive!
F2F

 

[Jack]

Quite clear
Not sure of how clear the water is in your neck of the woods.. but if it's quite clear, you are lucky to be alive!
F2F

More personal insults? Why don't you try some Scripture?

 

[Instant]

More personal insults? Why don't you try some Scripture?

There is definitely no need for anyone to be insulting, but the KJV isn't that difficult. I was reading it when I was 17 right after I got saved. There are some words where the meaning has changed, but that is easily figured out over time by just using a Strong's Concordance with a Greek and Hebrew Dictionary. It is worth buying just for the Exhaustive Concordance with every word in the Bible, but the Dictionary is a huge help. Once you learn things like how the word suffer often means allow and things like that, you don't need to keep looking the words up. You remember their meaning in old English.

 

[St. SteVen]

Only because other languages like Hebrew are more descriptive and meaningful than English, not because it's inadequate.
And to your first point, the Bible is the most accurate history book, while much of secular sources of history have been greatly altered, so ironically, you are the one ignoring history.

I mostly agree. But this does not support inerrancy.
Can you even define inerrancy? Do you actually know what that means?

 

[St. SteVen]

You didn't get what I was saying. I was saying that even if I didn't believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I would follow the Bible's teachings as if I did, not that I would lie and say I believed it was inerrant when I didn't.

Right. I wasn't suggesting that you not follow the Bible's teachings.

I am also saying that you're teaching it is not inerrant and making a case of it only harms the church. It doesn't help it.

Is the church about "truth", or "let's pretend"?

The chaos we have is caused by people refusing to adhere to the same Biblical standards.

You are in favor of doctrinal unity? Bad idea. Who's doctrine? Who decides what you believe?
Would you surrender your beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."

A follow-up to the two previous topics: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/would-you-surrender-your-own-beliefs-in-the-cause-of-doctrinal-unity.56191/ https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/unity-of-the-faith-at-what-cost.56095/ - Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Patrick1966]

I was saying that even if I didn't believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I would follow the Bible's teachings as if I did,

Do you believe that all English translations of the Bible are accurate?

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you believe that all English translations of the Bible are accurate?

That's a great question.
Typically KJVOs believe that the modern translations left verses OUT of the Bible.
What it really means is the modern translations didn't INSERT verses that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
And these proper omissions are typically footnoted in any Bible that has that feature.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's a great question.
Typically KJVOs believe that the modern translations left verses OUT of the Bible.
What it really means is the modern translations didn't INSERT verses that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
And these proper omissions are typically footnoted in any Bible that has that feature.

@Patrick1966
I should add that the reason it appears that modern translations "omitted" verses is because,
THANKFULLY, they kept the same chapter and verse numbering system as earlier translations.
Imagine what it would be like if they didn't do that. But they get criticized for it.
Claiming they OMITTED verses from "the Word of God". (horrors)

 

[face2face]

Some definitions my help.

What's your view on the final judgement?

Here are the three popular biblical views:
1) Damnationism
The forever burning hell, eternal separation from God for the "unsaved".
2) Annihilationism
Incineration of the "unsaved" after judgment.
3) Universalism
Everyone will go through an age of judgment, correction, and restoration.
There are no "unsaved". The plan of redemption is for all humankind.

Many believe that the "unsaved" dead are raised from a state of unconscious nonexistence
to face incineration, or eternal torment after judgment.

- Damnationism conflicts with Annihilationism and Universalism
- Annihilationism conflicts with Damnationism and Universalism
- Universalism conflicts with Damnationism and Annihilationism

All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.

The one which is truth is missing and is Biblical where a person dismissed from the judgment seat would first suffer the agonising reality of their shame "seen" (Rev. 16:15)

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

While this is a difficult subject the idea of the symbolic "outer darkness" is to mean these people are left to walk the earth alone and ashamed. I sense the torment in this person is seen in what they might do to themselves having lost all hope. Many will find refuge in death while others will wander hopelessly throughout the earth to find the ungodly, armies of the earth.

The end is to return to the grave and the memory of them is forgotten.

Depressing subject but one the Evangelicals like to embellish beyond what is written.

F2F

 

[Patrick1966]

The end is to return to the grave and the memory of them is forgotten.

Verse?

 

[face2face]

Verse?

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Eccl 9:5

 

[face2face]

@Patrick1966

I hate talking about this subject though I have studied it early on in my walk and felt I had a good grasp on the subject.

Rev. 19:19,

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is speaking of the gathering of forces for "the war of the great day of God Almighty," in which they "make war with the Lamb, but the Lamb shall overcome them."

Fierce judgment impends at that moment, of which the world is unconscious. Christ, of whose presence they are not aware, is about to be manifested "in naming fire taking vengeance" (2 Thess. 1:7, 8)

I believe many of the rejected will side with these armies and eventually be overthrown by Christ and the Saints

I am not dogmatic on this so you won't get a wrestle from me on this.

What I know for certain is the hyper literal interpratations of hell fire; eternal torment etc are false. It runs right accross the teachings on the Character of God.

F2F

 

[Patrick1966]

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Eccl 9:5

I don't believe that verse or that chapter is discussing the "outer darkness" discussed in Revelation.

It's also for the age, not forever.

As well, Ecclesiastes then goes on to say (YLT): 6 Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.

 

[Patrick1966]

The end is to return to the grave

This is actually what I was questioning. What is the Biblical support for this doctrine, please?

 

[face2face]

I don't believe that verse or that chapter is discussing the "outer darkness" discussed in Revelation.

Outer darkness is symbolic.

It's also for the age, not forever.

As well, Ecclesiastes then goes on to say (YLT): 6 Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.

Correct! This is true of both the righteous and the wicked - difference is the responsible are raised for judgement.

F2F

 

[face2face]

This is actually what I was questioning. What is the Biblical support for this doctrine, please?

All mortals return to the grave...have you not been to a funeral? Surely you dont need a quote for that!

 

[face2face]

This is actually what I was questioning. What is the Biblical support for this doctrine, please?

The corruption of the grave is given many symbolic expressions in the Bible.

but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries Heb 10:27

Not literal fire but used as a symbol to demonstrate the severity of those judgements

F2F

 

[Patrick1966]

All mortals return to the grave...

I guess I'm not following you when you say "return to the grave". We must die once. The faithful in Christ immediately go to God.

 

[St. SteVen]

The one which is truth is missing and is Biblical where a person dismissed from the judgment seat would first suffer the agonising reality of their shame "seen" (Rev. 16:15)

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

While this is a difficult subject the idea of the symbolic "outer darkness" is to mean these people are left to walk the earth alone and ashamed. I sense the torment in this person is seen in what they might do to themselves having lost all hope. Many will find refuge in death while others will wander hopelessly throughout the earth to find the ungodly, armies of the earth.

The end is to return to the grave and the memory of them is forgotten.

Depressing subject but one the Evangelicals like to embellish beyond what is written.

F2F

Unless I am overlooking something, that sounds like Annihilationism to me.

 

[face2face]

I guess I'm not following you when you say "return to the grave". We must die once. The faithful in Christ immediately go to God.

Unfortunately not Patrick.
The rejected will die a second time and take no more part in the plan of salvation.
Nowhere is it taught the faithful go immediately to God....but if you would like to try and prove that doctrine happy to be dogmatic on that one ;)
F2F