God's Holy Nation is those of faithfulness and obedience to Him.
AKA His Church.
Matthew 21:43; 1 Peter 2:9
The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist
- Thread starter Arthur81
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
AKA His Church.
Matthew 21:43; 1 Peter 2:9
Isreal has not ceased from being a nation before God. Did you happen to catch the sunrise this morning? Just like the rainbow is the sign of God's promise not to flood the earth again, the sunrise is a sign that God still holds Israel - that Israel - a nation before Him.
There's no mystery here. Only the question, will you believe His promises?
Much love!
That's a good one, hadn't heard it, gotta remember that.
Much more factual than facetious.
Israel ceased to be a nation for a cumulative 2,000 years during its exiles.
But those faithful and obedient to God never ceased to be a Nation to Him.
That's why His Church is declared to be His Holy Nation in 1 Peter 2:9.
Get your nations right.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
My dislike of 'isms and calling them man's doing, is simply the fact that men have separated or categorized would-be people of God for their own need for compartmentalized organization before seeing the same as one body or an orchestration made by God to do the same but as one. In other words, what God has separated for our understanding but also joined together, we ourselves should not actually separate. Meaning that when we have come to comprehend what it is that God has done, separations should not be further maintained.
In this case and question of dispensationalism, the shame of it is...is that many dwell on that point rather than the fact that it's not about that but about the distinction between the dead and the living (in Christ). As such--there is indeed a difference...and that is more of what the topic of discussion should be rather than the rabbit trail of multiple 'isms.
Last edited:
God never lost track of His chosen nation. What nation has reestablished it's ancient homeland, intact as a people, culture, language, after nearly 2,000 years of being gone from it?
I'm not aware of any!
Except this is not just any old nation, this is God's chosen nation, Israel, to whom He promised:
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
For what reason would God not keep this promise? That is, unless the sun doesn't rise, or if you measure the span of the heavens . . .
"for all that they have done."
Seriously, why do you think God would not keep this promise?
Much love!
So many folks, even well-meaning Christians, don't see the concepts of lesser and greater, and the lesser foreshadowing the greater, in Scripture. It is so integral to so many things, and One in particular ~ see Hebrews 1:1-4... my signature below... ~ that, it would seem just impossible to miss, but alas. Well, that and the fact that so many create a dichotomy doesn't Scripturally exist... recreating the wall of separation, as it were (as if that were even possible). But so it goes.
Grace and peace to all.
Grace and peace to all.
You've just agreed that "after nearly 2,000 years of being gone", i.e ceased; it is not God's nation of Jeremiah 31.
Stop worshipping the abomination of antichrist Israel. 1 John 2:22,23; 4:3
In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.
The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.
If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:
"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."
This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.
Thus we see:
Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:
Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.
There is none greater.
We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:
Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.
If you deny that God has appointed His Son alone as heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.
His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Such as:
Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Additional promissory clauses in...:
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.
But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...
Who is not in Christ.
You should quote me correctly. But then that might make your strawman more difficult.
marks said:
God never lost track of His chosen nation. What nation has reestablished it's ancient homeland, intact as a people, culture, language, after nearly 2,000 years of being gone from it?
Do you see the distinction between what I wrote, and what you present here? I most certainly did not agree that the nation was gone. I specifically said they were gone from their homeland, then, as a nation, reestablished it.
It was prophesied that they would be scattered, that they would return in unbelief, and then that Jesus would come, and they would all be returned, in belief. So far history is tracking right along. Let's not suppose God is not able to go the distance!
Much love!
This is your sophistry that God will not fulfill His Word. If you don't think He will keep His Word to them, why do you think He will keep it to you??
Much love!
Why not read all of the Scriptures in the post?
Then explain this:
Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
If you can disprove any Scriptures in the post, please do.
None of these overturn God's promise. God made an ironclad promise, and fulfulls today, and will fulfill it.
This is a simple manner. He is preserving a nation for salvation when He returns. It's prophesied all over the Bible.
This isn't "Scripture against Scripture", each of these are true. The true understanding doesn't require that you negate any parts of the Bible.
He as much as said there is nothing they could do that would cause God to cast them off. And He promised He would not. So why would you think He did?
Much love!
All of the posted Scriptures are God's Last Words regarding His Covenants and His Promises.
God's Last Words are the Words which take precedence.
Stop whining and complaining and attempting to deny God His Divine Right to rewrite His Own Will and Testament.
And get with His Program.
See . . . it's like you have this idea that the Bible is in conflict with itself, and that as we read the NT passages, we then go back and strike out the OT passages.
But in fact God knew all along His entire plan, and He has no need of making a liar of Himself. I repeat . . . if you have such a light view of God's promises, how do you know He will keep His promises to you?
There is no Greater and Lesser Scripture, and we have to rank them to see which we will believe. We hold them all in the same supremecy, we place our minds and understandings in subjection to the Scriptures, and we find the understanding that holds every passage, every Word of God, True.
This must mean your at your wit's end with me! God has revealed all these things to us in His Word, and there is no rewrite of the promises and covenant's He made, with the exception of what He in fact changed. The Priesthood, primarily. The New Covenent.
I've been posting this passage from Jeremiah a lot, but I'm going to include a little more context so you can see more what God is telling them. Yes, God has every sovereign right to do as He pleases. And it certainly did please Him to give a New Covenant. The New Will. He even prophesied that He was going to do that,
Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Which is, interestingly, immediately before this passage promising,
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
So He prophesied a New Covenant that would be made, and affirmed that Israel would remain a nation before Him.
Much love!
Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
What is the first, and what is the second?
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,296
- 1,453
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Seems God didn't get your message.
Context, my friend, will answer all of your questions.
Hebrews 10:6-14 KJV
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The first, is the sacrifice that cannot remove sins, and leaves them in rememberence of their sins. The second is the sacrifice that perfects forever them that are sanctified.
This does not abrogate God's promise to Israel given through so many of the prophets, that God would keep them throughout the centuries, to be returned to their promised land in faith and salvation when Jesus comes in power and glory.
Much love!
That didn't end the nation of Israel. And in the Great Tribulation a great many will die, but on behalf of the Chosen, Israel, God has cut short the affliction lest all flesh would die.
God promised to preserve the nation, but He did not promise certain individuals on the wide scale.
And it's not my message, I'm quoting God's Own Words, to you.
Much love!
You should post that passage in it's context, and you will see the full passage speaks exactly opposite the way you are presenting it.
This passage is still another assurance that God will preserve Israel to be saved when Jesus returns. Among other things God tells us, Paul quotes from Isaiah,
Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Will His promises fail? Does He prophesy in vain?
No, and no.
Much love!
Similar threads
