ewq1938
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The bible states the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump, Rev 11. There is nothing that states the wrath of God is any other trump or any seal.
Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??
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The bible states the wrath of God starts at the 7th trump, Rev 11. There is nothing that states the wrath of God is any other trump or any seal.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Why? I didn’t say you claimed that. I asked a general question. Since you mentioned the church is in heaven and referenced Ch. 4 and 5, why would we be gone years before the day of the Lord?
I didn’t say it did. I said after the 6th seal. I did not specify how far after and I never said “at or immediately after”.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. It is the time that God keeps His promise to Israel.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before part of Israel has its blindness removed.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Fair enough. My error.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
But since you never seem to understand that fact, how is it possible that you are unable to understand that when the KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD..............Christ HAS RETURNED and set up His kingdom on earth. It is the time of Judgement and wrath is complete.
Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
I know, thy wrath is come in Revelation 6 confuses you because you see thy wrath is come in Revelation 11. I get it. However, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and it is the time of judgement. You ought to be able to put 1 and 1 together and get 2.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
I realize you believe that but I’m not asking about this 70th week. I’m asking why would we be removed years before the wrath comes. Not why do you think we are removed at all. These are 2 separate questions.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood for a reason. Just as the Church will be in heaven 7 years before the destruction.
Additionally, part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The 70th week is about Israel and part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Jacob had two brides. To get the chosen bride he worked 7 more years.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
That doesn't make sense. You're telling me the church will be in heaven 7 years before the wrath while most say the wrath is 7 years. That is 14 years total. Where is that in scripture?
What is the justification for being removed years before wrath? Scripture says those who are alive and remain until the coming of the son. And you said in post #280, The coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth happens at the 6th seal.
How are we in heaven in ch. 4 and 5 if he doesn't come till the 6th seal to gather us? Your words, not mine.
Doesnt the resurrection, which precedes the rapture, happen on the last day? Not 7 years and not 14 years before the last day
The Light
Well-Known Member
Most are wrong. Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.
The tribulation is OVER at the sixth seal as proven in the following verses.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.
The coming of Jesus in Mattherw 24, is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Jesus returns in Matthew 24, Revelation 6, and Revelation 14. It is the same coming when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the clouds. All are returning for the marriage supper. Then at the end of wrath Jesus will return with the armies of heaven
It's not 14 years. The 70th week is 7 years long. Part is the tribulation and part is wrath.
There are many comings of Jesus beginning first with the dead in Chirst rising. The barley harvest. Christ will return for the alive that remain in the wheat harvest. The barley and wheat together is the grain harvest.. This happens before the seals are opened.
Then Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest which is the fruit harvest. That is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. If the first fruits are pumpkins, you know the harvest is pumpkins. Since the 144,000 are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, you know the harvest is the 12 tribes across the earth.
Jesus comes for the Church before the seals are opened. Jesus comes for the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth at the 6th seal. Only the nation of Israel, those that have fled to the place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.
Everything in order. First fruits, then they that are Christs at His coming.
Christ is the first fruits of those that sleep. When He returns the dead in Christ rise first. That would be the dead of the Church. Then Christ will return for the alive believers that remain. He will bring the dead with Him and the alive will meet them in the air. This is the grain harvest that will happen before the seals are opened.
Then we have 144,000 first fruits which are redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
First fruits means there will be a harvest. Christ comes at the 6th seal. They that are Christ's at His coming are the seed of the woman, Israel as that is who the dragon goes after when it cannot get to the woman Israel.
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
If part is tribulation and part is wrath and we are not supposed to be punished by God's wrath, and you said God's wrath happens at the 7th seal, why would we be removed back in Ch. 4 - years before God's wrath according to your timeline if the only thing between the 1st seal and the 6th was tribulation which we are to endure as multiple scriptures and Paul tells us so.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Actually the Greek word is harpagēsometha and the rapture is not connected with Jesus' return. Jesus does not return to earth at the rapture, but descends into the atmosphere to take away the church! the coming of Jesus is when He physically steps foot on the earth again.
People have erroneously coupled the rapture with the second coming, which is foolish.
But as to the dead believers? Even if the rapture were part of the second coming, which it is not, Thesselonians clearly shows that the dead in Christ go up before the living!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So you have the trumpets and vials happening after Jesus returns. You also have the rise of the antichrist happening after Jesus returns. WOW! Did someone feed you bad donuts!!!!
The Light
Well-Known Member
I have told you multiple times. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.
The first harvest has to occur before part of Israel can see. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in first as the Gentiles are the first harvest.
As the Word says, the 70th week is about the people of Daniel.
The Church is in heaven before the seals are ever opened. See Revelation 4 and 5.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Well, yes of course. If the Word says it, why wouldn't I believe it. First off Jesus returns for the Chuch BEFORE the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 and 5. The is the grain harvest. The dead in Christ being the barley harvest and then Lord returning for the alive that remain is the wheat harvest.
At the 6th seal Jesus returns for the fruit harvest. Are you not able to see that Jesus returns immediately AFTER the tribulation at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Do you not understand that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest, and this is BEFORE THE 7TH SEAL IS OPENED. The 7th seal contains the trumpets of wrath.
A long time ago someone fed me some bad donuts but then I finally understood that the tribulation and wrath of God are two seperate events.
You see the Antichrist in Revelation 13 and think that happens AFTER the 7th seal is opened.
You don't understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. You don't understand that Armageddon is over before the 7th trumpet.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Or maybe you can tell me how the Kingdoms of this world can become the kingdoms of our Lord IF ARMAGEDDON HASN'T HAPPENED.
When you are reading about the Antichrist in Revelation 13 and 14 you are BACK IN THE SEALS. Revelation reads like Genesis 7. How many times does Noah load the animals? How many are there? And yet you get 3 views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. In Revelation you get 2 views of the tribulation and two views of the wrath of God.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
I disagree. The verb harpazo derives from the noun harpagmos and always means to seize, take it by force and caught up
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
But he's not.
1. God gives him the command that in 7 days it will rain.
2. God tells him to prepare the ark with the animals and in 7 days it will rain
Noah had 7 days to complete the entering of the ark based on God's command.
11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Noah entered the ark the same day the rain/floods came. He had 7 days to finish God's command. And just like Lot, he left Sodom and entered Zoar on the same day destruction came. Both examples Christ gave happen on the same day as destruction.
6And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
There is a simple grandeur in the threefold description of the entrance of Noah and his retinue into the ark, first in the command, next in the actual process during the seven days, and, lastly, in the completed act on the seventh day.
In the selfsame day on which the flood began by that terrible shower.
In the selfsame day] Observe that P represents the Flood as ommencing on the same day (cf. Genesis 7:11) that Noah entered the ark. There is no account taken here of the interval of seven days, mentioned by J in Genesis 7:4; Genesis 7:10, preceding the catastrophe. For the expression “selfsame day,” a characteristic of P, cf. Genesis 17:23; Genesis 17:26; Exodus 12:17; Exodus 12:41; Exodus 12:51.
Not inconsistent with vers. 4, 5, which do not necessarily imply that the actual entry was made seven days before the Flood; but merely that Noah then began to carry out the Divine instructions. The threefold recital of the entry - first in connection with the invitation or command (ver. 5), and again in the actual process during the seven days (ver. 7), and finally on the day when the Flood began (ver. 15), - besides lending emphasis to the narrative, heightens its dramatic effect.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The first command God gives Noah is to enter the ark. Do you think Noah disobeyed God?
Genesis 7
7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
No. Noah entered the ark as instructed and 7 days later there was rain upon the earth
Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
You might want to do a little more study. You will find that verse 13 is the beginning of a new paragraph, not the conclusion of the paragraph that preceded. The conclusion of the paragraph that preceded was that there was rain upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights.
Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Genesis 7:13 is telling you that in the selfsame day, Noah, his family and ALL of the animals entered the ark. Noah was instructed to enter the ark and in the selfsame day Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark. The entering of the ark happened in the same day. Not the day of the flood, but the day he was instructed to enter.
Proper conclusion: Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. as instructed
ewq1938
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No, you don't get it. It is YOU that is confused and who does not understand Rev properly. The 6th seal only speaks of things happening during the 7th trump. The events of the seals are not happening at the time of the seals being opened. This is why the wrath of God cannot happen at the 6th seal's opening and the 7th trump's sounding.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
God didn't kill her. She refused to be rescued.
Okay. I came to my conclusions after an extensive study of the OT passages referring to "The Day of the Lord." My point was to say that although many of my fellow brothers and sisters believe that the Olivet Discourse is speaking about 70AD exclusively, I believe that the Olivet discourse is speaking about TWO distinct events when the Jewish people will need to hastily leave home. One already occurred during the Jewish/Roman wars and another will occur in our future.
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
Is this a rhetorical question? Why would you even ask me that, a self proclaimed Christian asking another believer if Noah disobeyed God. It is argumentative.
Noah began the entering in and had 7 days to finish it per God's command to get all in the ark. At the end of 7 days, it was finished and the selfsame day it rained, Noah entered and was shut in. He was not shut in 7 days prior. He was able to freely go in and out as he had 7 days before the wrath came to get all inside.
This is why I wrote my thoughts on it and I showed you multiple other sources on as well. They all confirm he entered on the same day it rained and the flood came.
This is also proven by Christ own words. In Luke 17, Christ says,
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Christ demonstrates that up to the day Noah entered and the flood came and he links it to Lot.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Why would Christ link them if they were different? The point is, he tells us the same day Lot went out, it rained destruction and it will be that same thing in the day the son of man is revealed. But you say no, its 7 days before. Christ says it's just like Lot, its the same day. And he linked it to Noah.
Now you can disagree with me, but you are also disagreeing with multiple other sources and have to explain why Christ said it was the same day as Lot and you confess it's not the same day but 7 days before for Lot and Noah's account of how destruction happens identically in both analogies.
This kind of comment causes division. There is no point for it but to stir up others to anger as an insult and is arrogant. No point for it in Christian circles.
Where do you read that after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, blindness in part is removed from Israel? In Ro 9 Paul writes those counted as Israel who shall be saved are not ethnic Jews, but spiritual children of the promise that come through the Seed (Christ) that is of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not all ethnic Israel, but spiritually Israel of God, which is both Jew of faith and Gentile of faith grafted in to the same good olive tree together.
Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Romans 9:6-8 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Paul never indicates the blindness that is in part shall be removed. He tells us that "all Israel that shall be saved" shall be both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together with them. How could Paul be speaking of ethnic Israel in this passage and at the same time say the fullness of Israel comes when Gentiles are grafted in with them?
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