We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[David in NJ]

What's your interpretation of Daniel 12:1-3?

Self explanatory = no interpretation necessary

The LORD Jesus and the Apostles spoke of it.

 

[David in NJ]

Because the entire book of Revelation is a "vision" that God gave to John. It is a prophecy regarding the spiritual attributes and not the carnal worldly view.
It is a KEY book that is used to interpret spiritual things not physical.
It's a code deciphering book.

Jesus and Nicodemus having a conversation about being born again. Nicodemus didn't have the depth of understanding to interpret physical from spiritual.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

I think some people are afraid of having their head in the clouds and rather have their feet planted solidly on the ground.
But with God, you have to Come Up Here to see and understand. You have to be willing to open your mind to things we don't fully understand.
This scares a lot of people who only believe in their 5 senses. If I can't touch it, taste it, see it, smell it or hear it, then it isn't real.
But the truth is those 5 senses are the illusion and not the means by which one understands spiritual truth.

Those 5 senses are temporary for a temporary existance in this life. They were created for living in a carnal world.
But the mind and the spirit have no boundaries unless you put chains on them and refuse to let them freely explore...

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

The book of Revelation is a vision. A dream.
It's like when Joseph dreamed about the sun and moon and stars bowing down to him. It wasn't literal. it was a prophecy, a vision.
One that requires interpretation from beginning to end.
Or consider the dreams of the Butler and the Baker. Interpretation was required.
Josephs visions of 7 lean cattla and 7 fat cattle. Interpretation was required.
And so it is with the book of Revelation. Interpretation is required.


Hugs

Good Morning Ziggy,

Revelation is not entirely symbolic.

Revelation is BOTH literal and symbolic.

Peace

 

[Ziggy]

Good Morning Ziggy,

Revelation is not entirely symbolic.

Revelation is BOTH literal and symbolic.

Peace

Peace to you to David
Hugs

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that the things seen below will be "Literal" that have no symbolic interpretation given

Where is it indicated that something can't be symbolic unless the symbolic interpretation is given?

I'm Waiting for your symbolic interpretation of the five items listed below?

1.) Literal bodies that are killed and die

2.) Literal bodies that lay in a Literal street in Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified

3.) A Literal world celebrating their deaths, exchanging Literal gifts

4.) Literal bodies that stand upon Literal feet,, that are Literally raised to heaven, as their Literal enemies on this earth watch

5.) A Literal Earthquake, that follows the Literal prophets being raised to to heaven

Revelation 11:7-13KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I don't see it as necessary to specifically identify each thing listed there. It's all symbolic as a whole representing the witness of the church throughout the world, the persecution of the church and the eventual rapture of the church. There is no need to determine what each word symbolizes.

Do you believe that the seven heads and ten horns of the beast are all symbolic? I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do not think it's talking about literal heads and horns of a literal beast. So, can you tell me exactly what each of the seven heads and each of the ten horns represent symbolically? If not, then does that mean it can't be symbolic? No, it doesn't mean that, right? But, with the kind of logic you're using in relation to the two witnesses here, it would have to mean that. Which shows that your logic and your approach is flawed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

ohhh? you don't think Moses was and those whose graves were opened and came out when Jesus was resurrected?

They died again later. Paul gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where he indicated Jesus was first in order and then at His second coming those who belong to Him will be resurrected unto bodily immortality. No one but Jesus has experienced that yet. And Paul indicated that this will happen at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is a misunderstanding and a misapplication.
Consider what these words of Jesus might mean...

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:8-11
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Jesus tells us the Devil has already been judged. I suppose he qualifies as 'a wicked'? does that mean he's already in the lake of fire or is he still prowling around like a roaring lion?.....or is it he has phone access to outside the lake and is running his show from within the flames.

I'm serious. Holding a position has implications and if one is interested in intellectual honesty, these implications must be faced and addressed.

You're not differentiating here between Jesus declaring the eventual sentencing and judgment that Satan will receive and the actual act of Satan being sentenced and cast into the lake of fire. Jesus has already set it in stone that it will happen, which is what the verses you quoted are about, but it hasn't actually happened yet. It's guaranteed to happen because Jesus made sure of that, but that doesn't mean it already happened.

 

[ScottA]

A lot of people believe that the two witnesses will be people from the past from the bible like Mosses and Elijah because they appeared at the transfiguration or Enoch and Elijah because they didn’t die.

I believe that the two witnesses are symbolic for the law and the prophets which all pointed to Jesus. Jesus and Abraham confirms this in the verses below.

Luke 16:27-31
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Moses (who represented the Law) and the prophets all pointed to Jesus just like the two witnesses point to Jesus. In the verses above we see that the law and the prophets is all anyone especially the Jews need and will get to see who Jesus is. Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection in these scriptures but He also predicted that the Jewish nation will still reject Him even after His death and resurrection.

These scriptures also have a two fold meaning when Jesus says that they won’t believe even if someone comes back from the dead He is also saying that the two witnesses cannot be anyone from the past coming back to life to preach because people still won’t believe so why would God even send them?

Hi Marty,

The revelation is that the two witnesses are "My two witnesses."

When men think of "two", they naturally think of two men. Because that is the way the natural man thinks. But who are His/God's witnesses? Only two? Do you see the error of this way of thinking? And yet, is this not the common doctrine? Such is the doctrine of foolish and natural men--not the mind of Christ!

If you are following me then...is Israel one man, or many? Are they not all His witnesses? And what of Christ, was He one man? But what of Paul who said, "for me to live, is Christ?" Does that not at the very least make for three witnesses rather than only two? And what of the apostles, and the whole church--are they/we not all His witnesses? And of all Israel and all the Church, are we not two brought together making one new man in Christ Jesus?

The two witnesses are the first Adam and the Last Adam (the flesh and the spirit) in whom we all exist, two made up of many who overcome "by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony."

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't see it as necessary to specifically identify each thing listed there. It's all symbolic as a whole representing the witness of the church throughout the world, the persecution of the church and the eventual rapture of the church. There is no need to determine what each word symbolizes.

One wave in the air of the reformed preterist magical wand and its all interpreted as symbolic, "Sure"

1.) Literal bodies that are killed and die

2.) Literal bodies that lay in a Literal street in Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified

3.) A Literal world celebrating their deaths, exchanging Literal gifts

4.) Literal bodies that stand upon Literal feet,, that are Literally raised to heaven, as their Literal enemies on this earth watch

5.) A Literal Earthquake, that follows the Literal prophets being raised to to heaven

Revelation 11:7-13KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe that the seven heads and ten horns of the beast are all symbolic? I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do not think it's talking about literal heads and horns of a literal beast. So, can you tell me exactly what each of the seven heads and each of the ten horns represent symbolically?

You know well that the scripture itself interprets the mystery of the 7 heads and 10 horns below, you do nothing more than use this as a "Distraction"

The 7 heads are 7 literal mountains, and the 10 horns are 10 literal kings

Revelation 17:7-12KJV
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[ewq1938]

Swords are carried in the hand not the mouth. How then are we to understand the sword in the mouth metaphor? Isn't it the word of truth?

In this discussion we should focus on what it does to the men being struck by it. They are killed.

 

[quietthinker]

In this discussion we should focus on what it does to the men being struck by it. They are killed.

 

[quietthinker]

In this discussion we should focus on what it does to the men being struck by it. They are killed.

Certain ones have rejected The Truth.....the natural consequence is death. Life does not exist apart from God. Deliberate sustained distancing from life/ truth results in death. Death is not an arbitrary judgement....it is a consequential fact

 

[ewq1938]

Life does not exist apart from God.

No. Most people are apart from God and are alive in the living animal mortal sense. At Armageddon Jesus will physically kill every human member of the beast's army.

 

[quietthinker]

No. Most people are apart from God and are alive in the living animal mortal sense. At Armageddon Jesus will physically kill every human member of the beast's army.

We are all infected with the process of dying. God doesn't need to kill us. Instead, he offers life to all.

 

[Truth7t7]

We are all infected with the process of dying. God doesn't need to kill us. Instead, he offers life to all.

Your in denial of biblical truth, God destroyed the entire inhabitants of the earth in the flood, save eight that were on the Ark

Sodom and Gomorrah and it's inhabitants were destroyed by God, with fire and brimstone from heaven

Ananias and Sapphira were killed by God for lying regarding the price received on their land, just a few honorable mentions

Do you really think people believe your theology, that clearly opposes scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[quietthinker]

Your in denial of biblical truth, God destroyed the entire inhabitants of the earth in the flood, save eight that were on the Ark

Sodom and Gomorrah and it's inhabitants were destroyed by God, with fire and brimstone from heaven, just a few honorable mentions

Ananias and Sapphira were killed by God for lying regarding the price received on their land

Do you really think people believe your theology, that clearly opposes scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

You obviously are happy with a God who kills. The one I know who favours that view is Satan and he has much success. Don't all participants in wars pray to God to help them win? They have no problems killing the opposition because their God justifies killing also.

Joining their ranks only indicates you haven't understood the heart of the God of Jesus.

 

[David in NJ]

No. Most people are apart from God and are alive in the living animal mortal sense. At Armageddon Jesus will physically kill every human member of the beast's army.

The truth of the matter is that the 'two witnesses' are peanut butter and jelly = healthy fast food that feeds and fills

 

[Ziggy]

Hi Marty,

The revelation is that the two witnesses are "My two witnesses."

When men think of "two", they naturally think of two men. Because that is the way the natural man thinks. But who are His/God's witnesses? Only two? Do you see the error of this way of thinking? And yet, is this not the common doctrine? Such is the doctrine of foolish and natural men--not the mind of Christ!

If you are following me then...is Israel one man, or many? Are they not all His witnesses? And what of Christ, was He one man? But what of Paul who said, "for me to live, is Christ?" Does that not at the very least make for three witnesses rather than only two? And what of the apostles, and the whole church--are they/we not all His witnesses? And of all Israel and all the Church, are we not two brought together making one new man in Christ Jesus?

The two witnesses are the first Adam and the Last Adam (the flesh and the spirit) in whom we all exist, two made up of many who overcome "by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony."

Going down the rabbit hole....

Consider the sun and moon as witnesses

Psa 89:34
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Psa 89:35
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psa 72:5
They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

Compare:

Isa 60:19
The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Jhn 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joe 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Darkness is ignorance. Blood is sacrifice.

Luk 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

There will be neither Jew nor Gentile because the Lord is Lord of All.

Could the two witnesses be the sun and the moon that represent Judaism and Christianity which Clothes New Jeruselem.
And the stars are those the shine brightly in it.
That's us.

What does it mean the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall turn to blood?
Judaism and Christianity will both be tried like gold in a furnace.

1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Does this mean we will not see physical changes in the sun or the moon? No.
It means that what happens in the spiritual realm eventually manifests itself in material ways.

Mar 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

God uses many things to get his point across. But the truth never changes only the imagery of it.

Hugs

 

[David in NJ]

Going down the rabbit hole....

Consider the sun and moon as witnesses

Psa 89:34
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Psa 89:35
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psa 72:5
They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

Compare:

Isa 60:19
The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Jhn 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joe 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Darkness is ignorance. Blood is sacrifice.

Luk 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Rev 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

There will be neither Jew nor Gentile because the Lord is Lord of All.

Could the two witnesses be the sun and the moon that represent Judaism and Christianity which Clothes New Jeruselem.
And the stars are those the shine brightly in it.
That's us.

What does it mean the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall turn to blood?
Judaism and Christianity will both be tried like gold in a furnace.

1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Does this mean we will not see physical changes in the sun or the moon? No.
It means that what happens in the spiritual realm eventually manifests itself in material ways.

Mar 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

God uses many things to get his point across. But the truth never changes only the imagery of it.

Hugs

The FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT bear Witness of Themselves

The Creation bears Witness to Elohim the Creator

The Law bears Witness to the LORD/Messiah suffering for our sins.

The nation Israel bears witness to God's Faithfulness and Mercy.

Gentile Prophet Job bears witness of the End Times, the Resurrection at His Coming and rebukes the lie of pre-trib rapture.

The Prophets bear Witness to the TRUTH = Past/Present/Future

The LORD is the Faithful Witness who bears Witness to the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE = Alpha and Omega

Blood Washed - Holy Spirit Baptized Saints are the LORD's Witnesses.

Satan has false witnesses.

Revelation has many witnesses.

Revelation 11:7-10 are Two Prophets sent back from when God had taken them off the earth.

KEY = They are sent back to finish their specific witness to a specific audience in a specified time and place Ordained beforehand by God.

PEACE

 

[Ziggy]

The FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT bear Witness of Themselves

The Creation bears Witness to Elohim the Creator

The Law bears Witness to the LORD/Messiah suffering for our sins.

The nation Israel bears witness to God's Faithfulness and Mercy.

Gentile Prophet Job bears witness of the End Times, the Resurrection at His Coming and rebukes the lie of pre-trib rapture.

The Prophets bear Witness to the TRUTH = Past/Present/Future

The LORD is the Faithful Witness who bears Witness to the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE = Alpha and Omega

Blood Washed - Holy Spirit Baptized Saints are the LORD's Witnesses.

Satan has false witnesses.

Revelation has many witnesses.

Revelation 11:7-10 are Two Prophets sent back from when God had taken them off the earth.

KEY = They are sent back to finish their specific witness to a specific audience in a specified time and place Ordained beforehand by God.

PEACE

Abraham was a gentile too. Who gave birth to Israel.
Chicken and the egg...
Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Everything gives witness to the one that created everything.

Peace
and Hugs
:)