Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[St. SteVen]

I don't believe that Jesus said that. I believe the translation of the original scripture into English changed what Jesus said. I believe that Jesus said that people would be damned for the age or an age, not FOREVER.

Agreed.
A search below in the NIV translation on "age to come" yields these results in the NT.

The translation errors are obvious. An age has a beginning and an end,
Two of these contain the phrase "in the age to come eternal life."
They have to be read to view "eternal" as a quality rather than a duration of endless time.
Fortunately, one age is followed by the next age.

• Matthew 12:32
  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
  
  
• Mark 10:30
  will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
  
  
• Luke 18:30
  will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
  
  
• Luke 20:35
  But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 10:11
  These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
  
  
• Ephesians 1:21
  far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

 

[Jack]

Brimstone is an agent used for refining. Why would God use a refining agent if his intent is to torture someone forever?

Jesus said, "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER,"

 

[Jack]

Young's Literal Translation, for one. There are several others but I do confess that most of Christianity, including yourself, believe in the world's version of God the destroyer and torturer.

Did you check Luke 16 in the YLT. It says you're wrong.

 

[Patrick1966]

Jesus said, "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER,"

No, he said they will be tested for the age.

 

[Patrick1966]

Did you check Luke 16 in the YLT. It says you're wrong.

Verse?

 

[Jack]

Verse?

The rich man died but was very much alive in the fire. I already posted it to you.

 

[Keiw]

Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs…

Why is he a heretic? He is right. Teaching the true living God as the sadist that the blind guides teach about their literal place of eternal suffering are the real heretics. Its called darkness and billions follow the darkness.

 

[Jack]

Jesus said, "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Amen Jesus!

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus said, "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Amen Jesus!

Every WORD JESUS Ever said is absolute TRUTH . Thus my advice is , Whatever HE said and taught , BELIEVE IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

The rich man died but was very much alive in the fire. I already posted it to you.

and being in torments .
This is why JESUS warned them all , Fear not He who can only KILL the body and then after that can do nothing .
FEAR YE HIM who after he has killed ..........................can destroy both body and soul in hell fire .
Many folks keep trying to omit things . But my advice is they better read that bible .
And read near the end of revelation . About what it say to those who add to or take from that book .
which i might add speaks about such a place . The very infernos of hells fire that many believed not existed
they will know it does . LEST they repent and learn CHRIST . cause adding too or taking from
means they gonna see it for themselves . read the end of revelation .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said, "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Amen Jesus!

That's actually John narrating His vision under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Revelation 20:10, and this is not Jesus speaking.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

and being in torments .
This is why JESUS warned them all , Fear not He who can only KILL the body and then after that can do nothing .
FEAR YE HIM who after he has killed ..........................can destroy both body and soul in hell fire .
Many folks keep trying to omit things . But my advice is they better read that bible .
And read near the end of revelation . About what it say to those who add to or take from that book .
which i might add speaks about such a place . The very infernos of hells fire that many believed not existed
they will know it does . LEST they repent and learn CHRIST . cause adding too or taking from
means they gonna see it for themselves . read the end of revelation .

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus compares the "killing of the body by men" with His comparing how we are to fear Him who can destroy (kill) both body and soul in Gehenna (Gehenna fire). The analogy or parallel Jesus made is destroyed if one inserts ECT into this verse.

 

[Jack]

That's actually John narrating His vision under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Revelation 20:10, and this is not Jesus speaking.

It is indeed Jesus speaking. It's the Word of God. Jesus is God.

 

[Johann]

Verse?

Luk 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
In Hades (en tōi Hāidēi). See note on Mat_16:18 for discussion of this word. Lazarus was in Hades also for both Paradise (Abraham’s bosom) and Gehenna are in the unseen world beyond the grave.

In torments (en basanois). The touchstone by which gold and other metals were tested, then the rack for torturing people. Old word, but in the N.T. only here, Luk_16:28; Mat_4:24.

Sees (horāi). Dramatic present indicative. The Jews believed that Gehenna and Paradise were close together.
From afar (apo makrothen). Pleonastic use of apo as makrothen means from afar.



1) "And In hell he lift up his eyes," (kai en to hade eparas tous ophthalmous autou) "And in the hades (place of torments, called hell) he lifted up his eyes," the holding place (abode) of the souls of the responsible unbelievers after death. It is a place of conscious torments, Luk_13:28; Rev_14:10-11.

2) "Being in torments," (huparchon en basanois) "Being or existing in torments," in mental, emotional, and spiritual state and place (location) of torments, with every sense-faculty of body and spirit that he had while living, to see, hear, taste, feel and to think, His final damnation was yet future, Rev_20:11; Rev_20:15.



"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T. The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel , Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide. It is in the N.T. used as the translation of two Greek words :--

I. Gehenna . Gr. geenna . This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom , i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.

In the O.T. Tophet was the Heb. word used, because it was a place in this valley.
In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, " geenna of fire". See 2Ki_23:10. Isa_30:33. Jer_7:31; Jer_7:32; Jer_19:11-14.


Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", viz. Mat_5:22; Mat_5:29; Mat_5:30; Mat_10:28; Mat_18:9; Mat_23:15; Mat_23:33. Mar_9:45; Mar_9:47. Luk_12:5. Jam_3:6.

II. Hades . Gr. hades , from a (privative) and idein , to see (Ap. 133. I. i); used by the Greeks for the unseen world. The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them. The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Psa_12:6).

From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".
The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sheol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.


Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Act_2:27; Act_2:31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psa_16:10, He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Psa_16:10 is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.

The word occurs eleven times (Mat_11:23; Mat_16:18. Luk_10:15; Luk_16:23. Act_2:27; Act_2:31. 1Co_15:55. Rev_1:18; Rev_6:8; Rev_20:13; Rev_20:14); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" (1Co_15:55, marg. "hell"). In the R.V. the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in 1Co_15:55 (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade ), and in the American R.V. also.

As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol , further light may be gained from Ap. 35, and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the N.T. (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sheol , its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).

"The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (Germ. sterbend , for w 6a2 hich we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show.
1. The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Num_16:30; Num_16:33. Job_17:16).

2. The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor ) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades . For, as to direction , it is always down: as to place , it is in the earth: as to relation , it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deu_32:22-25 and 1Sa_2:6-8); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen_37:34; Gen_37:35), sorrow (Gen_42:38. 2Sa_22:6. Psa_18:5; Psa_116:3), fright and terror (Num_16:27; Num_16:34) mourning (Isa_38:3; Isa_38:10; Isa_38:17; Isa_38:18), silence (Psa_6:5; Psa_31:17. Ecc_9:10), no knowledge (Ecc_9:5; Ecc_9:6; Ecc_9:10), punishment (Num_16:29; Num_16:34. 1Ki_2:6; 1Ki_2:9. Job_24:19. Psa_9:17 (R.V. = re -turned), corruption (Psa_16:10. Act_2:27; Act_2:31); as to duration resurrection is the only exit from it (Psa_16:11. Act_2:27; Act_2:31; Act_13:33-37. 1Co_15:55. Rev_1:18; Rev_20:5; Rev_20:13; Rev_20:14).

III. Tartaroo (occurs only in 2Pe_2:4) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Sept. Homer describes it as subterranean (cp. Deu_32:22, which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim , Ap. 25), who rebelled against Zeus .
Bullinger

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is indeed Jesus speaking. It's the Word of God. Jesus is God.

Yes, Jesus is God.
Praise the Lord.
I also believe there is a symbiotic relationship between the Living Word (Jesus) and the Communicated Word (like Scripture).
I have listed 41 verses that makes this connection.
You can check out my write up on that here:

The Living Word & the Communicated Word.

The Symbiotic Relationship Between The Living Word, & the Communicated Word: Christ is good (John 10:11, John 10:14), and the word is good (1 Kings 2:42). Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and the word is the truth (John 17:17). Christ is called Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11), and...

www.christianforums.com

The Holy Spirit moved men to speak God’s words (2 Peter 1:21), and God superintended (inspired) men to write those words down correctly or perfectly (Which is Scripture).

But I do not believe everything written in the Bible are the words of Jesus (While I do not discount the possibility that Jesus could have guided the listeners of Scripture to accurately record what men of God said or the story of God, there is no exact verse or passage that say this). 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. So it could have been guided by all three persons of the Trinity or just the Holy Spirit.

But we have to recognize that even if this is so, within the actual events themselves, there are words that are exclusive to certain persons of the Trinity or Godhead.

For example:

Jesus said He did not speak on His own behalf, but Jesus spoke by commandment on what God the Father told Him to say.

John 12:49
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”

In other words, Jesus was relaying the words of God the Father.

The words in Hebrews 3:7-10 are the words of the Holy Ghost.

7 “Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.”

Matthew 3:17
“And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was clearly the Father saying this and not Jesus (if you were to have been present during that actual event).

So in one sense, while Jesus could have been taken part in making Scripture to happen (like the words chosen in Revelation) because Jesus is one with the Father, to say that He directly spoke those words entirely would not be true. John was writing down his vision in what he seen using his own mind and thoughts. He was inspired by God to write what he did, but he was not auto writing mindlessly with no thoughts of his own. John’s personality was still a part of Scripture. John said, “Even so, come, Lord Jesus.” So if Jesus said, “Come Lord Jesus“ it would not make any sense. Jesus would not be speaking on behalf of John’s prayer. God did not take over John’s mind and force John to say those words as a part of His prayer. That was the apostle John’s prayer and desire in that Jesus would come.

 

[Johann]

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus compares the "killing of the body by men" with His comparing how we are to fear Him who can destroy (kill) both body and soul in Gehenna (Gehenna fire). The analogy or parallel Jesus made is destroyed if one inserts ECT into this verse.

Olam . This word is derived from 'alam (to hide), and means the hidden time or age, like aion (see below II. A), by which the word, or its Adjective aionios , it is generally rendered in the Sept. In Ezra 4 and Dan. 2-7, the Chaldee form 'alam is used. There are 448 passages where the word occurs.

i. It is doubled, "from 'olam to 'olam " in 11 places, and is translated :--
1. "for ever and ever" in 1Ch_16:36; 1Ch_29:10. Neh_9:5. Jer_7:7; Jer_25:5. Dan_2:20; Dan_7:18.
2. "from everlasting to everlasting" in Psa_41:13; Psa_90:2; Psa_103:17; Psa_106:48.

ii. It is used in the plural 11 times, and translated :--
1. "for ever" in 1Ki_8:13. 2Ch_6:2. Psa_61:4; Psa_77:7.
2. "everlasting" in Psa_145:13 (see marg.). Isa_26:4. (see marg.); Isa_45:17. Dan_9:24.
3. "of ancient times or old times" in Psa_77:5. Ecc_1:10.
4. "of old" in Isa_51:9.

iii. It is rendered "for ever" in Gen_3:22; Gen_13:15. Exo_3:15; Exo_12:14; Exo_12:17; Exo_12:24; Exo_14:13; Exo_19:9; Exo_21:6; Exo_27:21; Exo_28:43; Exo_29:28; Exo_30:21; Exo_31:17; Exo_32:13. Lev_6:18; Lev_6:22; Lev_7:34; Lev_7:336; Lev_10:9; Lev_10:15; Lev_16:29; Lev_16:31; Lev_17:7; Lev_23:14; Lev_23:21; Lev_23:31; Lev_23:41; Lev_24:3; Lev_25:46. Num_10:8; Num_15:15; Num_18:8; Num_18:11; Num_18:19; Num_18:23; Num_19:10. Deu_5:29; Deu_12:28; Deu_13:16; Deu_15:17; Deu_23:3; Deu_23:6; Deu_28:46; Deu_29:29; Deu_32:40. Jos_4:7; Jos_8:28; Jos_14:9. 1Sa_1:22; 1Sa_2:30; 1Sa_3:13-14; 1Sa_13:13; 1Sa_20:15; 1Sa_20:23; 1Sa_20:42; 1Sa_27:12. 2Sa_3:28; 2Sa_7:13; 2Sa_7:15; 2Sa_7:18; 2Sa_7:24-26; 2Sa_7:29. 1Ki_1:31; 1Ki_2:53; 1Ki_2:45; 1Ki_9:3; 1Ki_9:5; 1Ki_10:9. 2Ki_5:27; 2Ki_21:7. 1Ch_15:2; 1Ch_16:34; 1Ch_16:41; 1Ch_17:12; 1Ch_17:14; 1Ch_17:22; 1Ch_17:24; 1Ch_17:27; 1Ch_22:10; 1Ch_23:13; 1Ch_23:25; 1Ch_28:4; 1Ch_28:7-8; 1Ch_29:18 2Ch_2:4; 2Ch_5:13; 2Ch_7:3; 2Ch_7:6; 2Ch_7:16; 2Ch_9:8; 2Ch_13:5; 2Ch_20:7; 2Ch_20:21; 2Ch_30:8; 2Ch_33:4; 2Ch_33:7. Ezr_3:11; Ezr_9:12. Neh_2:3; Neh_13:1. Job_41:4. Psa_9:7; Psa_12:7; Psa_28:9; Psa_29:10; Psa_30:12; Psa_33:11; Psa_37:18; Psa_37:28; Psa_41:12; Psa_44:8; Psa_45:2; Psa_48:8; Psa_49:8; Psa_49:11; Psa_52:9; Psa_61:7; Psa_66:7; Psa_72:17; Psa_72:19; Psa_73:26; Psa_75:9; Psa_78:69; Psa_79:13; Psa_81:15; Psa_85:5; Psa_89:1-2; Psa_89:4; Psa_89:36-37; Psa_102:12; Psa_103:9; Psa_104:31; Psa_105:8; Psa_106:1; Psa_107:1; Psa_110:4; Psa_111:9; Psa_112:6; Psa_117:2; Psa_118:1-4; Psa_118:29; Psa_119:89; Psa_119:111; Psa_119:152; Psa_119:160; Psa_125:1-2; Psa_131:3; Psa_135:13; Psa_136:1-26; Psa_138:8; Psa_146:6; Psa_146:10. Pro_27:24. Ecc_1:4; Ecc_2:16; Ecc_3:14; Ecc_9:6. Isa_9:7; Isa_32:14; Isa_32:17; Isa_34:10; Isa_34:17; Isa_40:8; Isa_47:7; Isa_51:6; Isa_51:8; Isa_57:16; Isa_59:21; Isa_60:21. Jer_3:5; Jer_3:12; Jer_17:4; Jer_17:25; Jer_31:40; Jer_33:11; Jer_35:6; Jer_49:33; Jer_51:26; Jer_51:62. Lam_3:31; Lam_5:19. Eze_37:25; Eze_43:7; Eze_43:9. Dan_2:4; Dan_2:44; Dan_3:9; Dan_4:34; Dan_5:10; Dan_6:6; Dan_6:21; Dan_6:26; Dan_7:18; Dan_12:7. Hos_2:19. Joe_3:20. Oba_1:10. Jon_2:6. Mic_2:9; Mic_4:7. Zec_1:5. Mal_1:4.
iv. In conjunction with 'ad (see below, B) it is rendered :--
1. "for ever and ever" in Exo_15:18. Psa_9:5; Psa_10:16; Psa_21:4; Psa_45:6; Psa_45:17; Psa_48:14; Psa_52:8; Psa_111:8; Psa_119:44; Psa_145:1-2; Psa_145:21; Psa_148:6. Isa_30:8. Dan_12:3. Mic_4:5.
2. "for ever" in Psa_104:5.
3. "world without end" in Isa_45:-17. (*1)






Other words are: -
C. Nezach , which means "excellence" or "completeness", and is the word used in the subscription of 55 Psalms for "chief" in "chief Musician". It is rendered :--

i. "for ever" in 2Sa_2:26. Job_4:20; Job_14:20; Job_20:7; Job_23:7; Job_36:7. Psa_13:1; Psa_44:23; Psa_49:9; Psa_52:5; Psa_68:16; Psa_74:1; Psa_74:10; Psa_74:19; Psa_77:8; Psa_79:5; Psa_89:46. Jer_50:39. Lam_5:20. Amo_1:11.
ii. "never" (with a negative) in Psa_10:11; Psa_49:19. Isa_13:20. Amo_8:7. Hab_1:4.
iii. alway(s) in Psa_9:18; Psa_103:9. Isa_57:16.
iv. "perpetual" in Psa_9:6; Psa_74:3. Jer_15:18.
v. "ever" in Isa_28:28; Isa_33:20; "strength" in 1Sa_15:29. Lam_3:18; "the end" in Job_34:36. Jer_3:5; "victory" in 1Ch_29:11. Isa_25:8. "evermore" in Psa_16:11; "constantly" in Pro_21:28 and "for ever and ever" in Isa_34:10. In this last passage it is doubled, lenezach nezahim = completeness of completenesses.




II. In the N.T. the words rendered "for ever", &c., are the Noun aion , the Adjectives aionios , aidios , akatalutos , and aperantos ; the Adverbs aei and pantote , and the adverbial phrase eis to dienekes .

A. Aion , which means "age" (Ap. 129. 2), is found 128 times in 105 passages, in 23 of which it is doubled (see below, ii. 6, 9, 10). It occurs in its simple form 37 times, and with Prepositions 68 times.

i. In its simple form it is rendered :--
1. "age". Eph_2:7 (pl). Col_1:26 (pl).
2. "course". Eph_2:2.
3. "world". Mat_12:32; Mat_13:22; Mat_13:39-40; Mat_13:49; Mat_24:3; Mat_28:20. Mar_4:19; Mar_10:30. Luk_16:8; Luk_18:30; Luk_20:34-35. Rom_12:2. 1Co_1:20; 1Co_2:6-7 (pl), 1Co_2:8; 1Co_3:18; 1Co_3:1 Co_10:11 (pl). 2Co_4:4. Gal_1:4. Eph_1:21; Eph_6:12. 1Ti_6:17. 2Ti_4:10. Tit_2:12. Heb_1:2 (pl); Heb_6:5; Heb_9:26 (pl); Heb_11:3 (pl).
4. "eternal". Eph_3:11. 1Ti_1:17 (lit. "of the ages").


ii. In prepositional phrases :--
1. ap'aionos [from (Ap. 104. iv) an (the) age], rendered "since the world began" in Luk_1:70. Act_3:21; and "from the beginning of the world" in Act_15:18.
2. apo ton aionon [from (Ap. 104. iv) the ages], rendered "from the beginning of the world" in Eph_3:9.
3. ek tou ainos [out of (Ap. 104. vii) the age], rendered "since the world began" in Joh_9:32.
4. eis ton ainona [to (Ap. 104. vi) the age], rendered :--
a. "for ever" in Mat_21:19. Mar_11:14. Luk_1:55. Joh_6:51; Joh_6:58; Joh_8:35; Joh_12:34; Joh_14:16. 2Co_9:9. Heb_5:6; Heb_6:20; Heb_7:17; Heb_7:21. 1Pe_1:23; 1Pe_1:25. 2Pe_2:17 (no Art.). 1Jn_2:17. 2Jn_1:2. Jud_1:13.
b. "never" (with a negative) in Mar_3:29. Joh_4:14; Joh_8:51-52; Joh_10:28; Joh_11:26; Joh_13:8.
c. "ever" in Heb_7:24.
d. "for evermore" in Heb_7:28.
e. "while the world standeth" in 1Co_8:13.

5. eis hemeran aionos [to (Ap. 104. vi) day of an age], rendered "for ever" in 2Pe_3:18.
6. eis ton aiona tou aionos [to (Ap. 104. vi) the age of an age], rendered "for ever and ever" in Heb_1:8.
7. eis tous aionas [to (Ap. 104. vi) the ages], rendered :--
a. "for ever" in Mat_6:13. Luk_1:33. Rom_1:25; Rom_9:5; Rom_11:36; Rom_16:27. Heb_13:8.
b. "for evermore" in 2Co_11:31.

8. eis pantas tous aionas [to (Ap. 104. vi) all the ages], rendered "ever" in Jud_1:25.
9. eis tous aionas ton aionon [to (Ap. 104. vi) to the ages of the ages], rendered :--
a. "for ever and ever" in Gal_1:5.

10. eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon [to (Ap. 104. vi) all the generations of the age of ages], rendered "throughout all ages, world without end" in Eph_3:21.

B.

C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Mat_19:16; Mat_25:46. Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30. Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18. Joh_3:15; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_17:2-3. Act_13:48. Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:23. 2Co_4:17-18; 2Co_5:1. 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:19. 2Ti_2:10. Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7. Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14-15. 1Pe_5:10. 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20. Jud_1:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Mat_18:8; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46. Luk_16:9; Luk_18:30. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_12:50. Act_13:46. Rom_6:22; Rom_16:26. Gal_6:8. 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16. 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_1:1 Tit_6:16. Heb_13:20. 2Pe_1:11. Rev_14:6.
iii. "for ever" in Phm_1:15.
iv. "Before or since the world began", in the phrases, chronois , aioniois , or pro chronon aionion , (in, or before age-times), strangely rendered in the R.V. "through, or before times eternal", in Rom_16:25. 2Ti_1:9. Tit_1:2.


D. Aidios , said to be from aei (see F below), but perhaps from a not and idein to see, = unseen or hidden, occurs twice and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Rom_1:20.
ii. "everlasting" in Jud_1:6.


E. Akatalutos (indissoluble) occurs once, and is rendered "endless" in Heb_7:16.
F. Aperantos (interminable) occurs once, and is rendered "endless" in 1Ti_1:4.
G. Aei (always) occurs 8 times, and is rendered :--
i. "ever" in Mar_15:8.
ii. "alway" or "always" in Act_7:51. 2Co_4:11; 2Co_6:10. Tit_1:12. Heb_3:10. 1Pe_3:15. 2Pe_1:12.


H. Pantote (always) occurs 42 times, and is rendered :--
i. "alway" or "always" in Mat_26:11. Mar_14:7. Luk_18:1. Joh_7:6; Joh_8:29; Joh_11:42; Joh_12:8; Joh_18:20. Rom_1:9. 1Co_1:4; 1Co_15:58. 2Co_2:14; 2Co_4:10; 2Co_5:6; 2Co_9:8. Gal_4:18. Eph_5:20. Php_1:4; Php_1:20; Php_2:12; Php_4:4. Col_1:3; Col_4:6; Col_4:12. 1Th_1:2; 1Th_2:16; 1Th_3:6. 2Th_1:3; 2Th_1:11; 2Th_2:13. Phm_1:4.
ii. "ever" in Luk_15:31. Joh_18:20. 1Th_4:17; 1Th_5:15. 2Ti_3:7. Heb_7:25.
iii. "evermore" in Joh_6:34. 1Th_5:16.


I. Eis to dienekes [to (Ap. 104. vi) that which is continuos] occurs 4 times, rendered :--
i. "continually" in Heb_7:3; Heb_10:1.
ii. "for ever" in Heb_10:12; Heb_10:14.

 

[Johann]

The above from Bullinger @Bible Highlighter
#576

--and there are more-

Mat 25:46 Καὶ Kai|G2532|Conj|And ἀπελεύσονται apeleusontai|G565|V-FIM-3P|will go away οὗτοι houtoi|G3778|DPro-NMP|these εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|into κόλασιν kolasin|G2851|N-AFS|punishment αἰώνιον, aiōnion|G166|Adj-AFS|eternal; οἱ hoi|G3588|Art-NMP|- δὲ de|G1161|Conj|but δίκαιοι dikaioi|G1342|Adj-NMP|the righteous εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|into ζωὴν zōēn|G2222|N-AFS|life αἰώνιον. aiōnion|G166|Adj-AFS|eternal.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular + Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular


Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal.

There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis. But the same adjective aiōnios is used with kolasin and zōēn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zōēn.

There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).
Robertson

everlasting Greek. aionion. . In the same sense as in Heb_5:9 (Isa_45:17); Mat_6:2; Mat_9:12. 2Th_1:9. (Compare Psa_52:5; Psa_92:7.) The eternal result must be the same as in the next clause.

Remember, you believed in ECT and changed your mind, I find it difficult to believe as you do now-not being facetious with you.

Johann

 

[Jack]

Yes, Jesus is God.
Praise the Lord.
I also believe there is a symbiotic relationship between the Living Word (Jesus) and the Communicated Word (like Scripture).
I have listed 41 verses that makes this connection.
You can check out my write up on that here:

The Living Word & the Communicated Word.

The Symbiotic Relationship Between The Living Word, & the Communicated Word: Christ is good (John 10:11, John 10:14), and the word is good (1 Kings 2:42). Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and the word is the truth (John 17:17). Christ is called Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11), and...

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The Holy Spirit moved men to speak God’s words (2 Peter 1:21), and God superintended (inspired) men to write those words down correctly or perfectly (Which is Scripture).

But I do not believe everything written in the Bible are the words of Jesus (While I do not discount the possibility that Jesus could have guided the listeners of Scripture to accurately record what men of God said or the story of God, there is no exact verse or passage that say this). 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. So it could have been guided by all three persons of the Trinity or just the Holy Spirit.

But we have to recognize that even if this is so, within the actual events themselves, there are words that are exclusive to certain persons of the Trinity or Godhead.

For example:

Jesus said He did not speak on His own behalf, but Jesus spoke by commandment on what God the Father told Him to say.

John 12:49
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”

In other words, Jesus was relaying the words of God the Father.

The words in Hebrews 3:7-10 are the words of the Holy Ghost.

7 “Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.”

Matthew 3:17
“And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was clearly the Father saying this and not Jesus (if you were to have been present during that actual event).

So in one sense, while Jesus could have been taken part in making Scripture to happen (like the words chosen in Revelation) because Jesus is one with the Father, to say that He directly spoke those words entirely would not be true. John was writing down his vision in what he seen using his own mind and thoughts. He was inspired by God to write what he did, but he was not auto writing mindlessly with no thoughts of his own. John’s personality was still a part of Scripture. John said, “Even so, come, Lord Jesus.” So if Jesus said, “Come Lord Jesus“ it would not make any sense. Jesus would not be speaking on behalf of John’s prayer. God did not take over John’s mind and force John to say those words as a part of His prayer. That was the apostle John’s prayer and desire in that Jesus would come.

Christians believe that Jesus is God and the Bible is His Word. And therefore the Bible is the Words of Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Christians believe that Jesus is God

Yes, as I said before, Jesus is God.
So there is point in repeating something that I already agree with.

and the Bible is His Word. And therefore the Bible is the Words of Jesus.

You need to supply a Scripture verse or passage to lay claim that all words in the Bible are the words of Jesus.
So far, you have not really demonstrated this fact. Again, the apostle John said, “Come Lord Jesus.” Are you saying that Jesus was the One who really was saying those words and not John?

Also, are you the official spoken person of God for all Christians everywhere?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The above from Bullinger @Bible Highlighter
#576

--and there are more-

Mat 25:46 Καὶ Kai|G2532|Conj|And ἀπελεύσονται apeleusontai|G565|V-FIM-3P|will go away οὗτοι houtoi|G3778|DPro-NMP|these εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|into κόλασιν kolasin|G2851|N-AFS|punishment αἰώνιον, aiōnion|G166|Adj-AFS|eternal; οἱ hoi|G3588|Art-NMP|- δὲ de|G1161|Conj|but δίκαιοι dikaioi|G1342|Adj-NMP|the righteous εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|into ζωὴν zōēn|G2222|N-AFS|life αἰώνιον. aiōnion|G166|Adj-AFS|eternal.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular + Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular


Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal.

There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis. But the same adjective aiōnios is used with kolasin and zōēn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zōēn.

There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).
Robertson

everlasting Greek. aionion. . In the same sense as in Heb_5:9 (Isa_45:17); Mat_6:2; Mat_9:12. 2Th_1:9. (Compare Psa_52:5; Psa_92:7.) The eternal result must be the same as in the next clause.

Remember, you believed in ECT and changed your mind, I find it difficult to believe as you do now-not being facetious with you.

Johann

First, you have to think that the predominant view in Christianity for hundreds of years is ECT. However, what is always popular is not always true. We know this because Jesus had a problem with the religious authorities (Who were popular) during His time. But please consider that any recent Lexicon or Original Languages Dictionary is going to be influenced and or defined by them. They have a bias to a belief they prefer. So we have to look strictly at what the Word of God says, and what English dictionaries (that are little less biased). For example: the English dictionary defines the word “ever” also as meaning, “to great extent or degree.” So when Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire and is tormented day and night, it could be defined as to a great extent, and degree (if we are to look at the other definitions for the word “ever” in Revelation 20:10).

Second, you have to ignore and or change the plain reading of these verses below in Scripture.

1. The Tree in the Garden (See here).
2. Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Death. The Second Death is related to the First Death. But in ECT this is not the case; They are not really related.
3. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28). In this verse Jesus compares to not be afraid of those who kill (destroy) the body, but be afraid of the One (Jesus) who can destroy the soul. The parallel is destroyed in ECT.
4. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12). Save AND DESTROY. But in ECT, the word “destroy” does not really mean, “destroy.”
5. "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10). In ECT, there is no immortality through the gospel. Everyone is either already immortal or they will be immortal regardless of the gospel.
6. Jesus (God) alone has immortality-anyone else becomes immortal only as a result of God's gracious gift (1 Timothy 6:16, Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT this is not the case.
7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7). Yet, in ECT, Why are we told to seek after eternal life if everyone is already going to live eternally?
8. Jude 1:7 - eternal fire. Just because the fire is “eternal fire” does that mean Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning today? Certainly not. But ECT Proponents just brush this truth aside and put their fingers intheir ears and move on (With them not really dealing with the truth).
9. Hebrews 6:2 says there is an “eternal judgment.” Does that mean that God is going to judging saved and unsaved for a finite amount of people for all eternity? Surely not. So then to say that “everlasting” (or eternal) punishment must be interpreted in the same way is silly (Especially when there are Conditional Immortality verses that ECT proponents love to ignore or twist).
10. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. (John 6:51). Again, in ECT, these words by our Lord Jesus do not really mean anything. Why should we care if we live forever if everyone is going to live forever anyways? It doesn’t make any sense.
11. Whose end is destruction, (Philippians 3:19). Yet, in ECT, they don’t believe the the wicked will have an end that is destruction.
12. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. In ECT, they don’t believe this word “destruction” is to be read literally. They somehow favor a God who punishes people way beyond what the crime calls for.
13. Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: perdion means “destruction”).
14. , "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. Again, how can one really lose his life if they live eternally in conscious torment in fire? Technically their life is not lost in ECT.
15. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). In ECT, death is not really the wages of sin because they will live forever. In ECT, eternal life is not really a gift of eternal life because everyone will have eternal life regardless of whether they receive the gift of eternal life or not. So more twisting or ignoring of Scripture is involved if one believes in ECT.

Three, ECT cannot be made into a parable or real world example. The Canaanite woman said to Jesus that even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table. She was using a real example to illusrate a spiritual truth. So this means we can also make real world examples (parables) to illustrate a spiritual truth that God teaches. Seeing, ECT cannot be demonstrated as being fair justice by way of real world example, we must conclude that it is a false doctrine that is seekign to malign the good chracter of God.

Four, I make more of a comprehesive defense of Conditional Immortality in this thread (on another forum) here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

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