Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

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Bible Highlighter

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You don't? Well, I have a copy of Koine Greek Bible on my table and read it--not Greek scholars?

You honestly want to tell me you don't know of ANY Greek Scholars?!

Show me any page you like in Greek and I can read it--correct, there is a difference in Modern Greek and Koine Greek--I read both--and you need to familiarize yourself with the morphology and parsing/etymology of Greek and Hebrew, as for bias, we ALL have our biases friend, whether you like it or not.
The problem is that not all scholars agree on what the Greek says. So are you saying you know more than scholars and what makes your interpretation on the Greek better than their own? The KJB Translators were experts in Greek. They spoke, wrote, and read it fluently. I am pretty sure you don’t and or you are going off some recent dictionary that comes from Textual Criticism (like the Strong’s etcetera).

As for me using the original lanuages: While you may be different, the difference between most original language “know it alls” and me on this topic is that I don’t try to explain away the English or act like I am an expert in the original languages. For me: The English is just as authoritative in the KJB. Also, the translators on the KJB spoke, wrote, and read Greek fluently. Again, I don’t think your an expert. I believe your lens is the traditional beliefs of the evangelical church and their interpretation and then you just are following what they say.


Yes, we can hang up the phone--no problem, esp. as you class me in a "religious group"
And why not? James tells his readers about pure religion and how to put that into practice.

James 1:27
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”


I don't let anything "slide" forever and ever is just that, in the KJV--no need to twist it.
I don’t think you understand that the King James Bible has many archaic words whereby we cannot enforce our Modern undertanding upon it always. Try picking up D.A. Waite’s small little book called,
4,114 Definitions from the Defined King James Bible.”


Yes, this is called indoctrination--over and over again--sorry friend, we all have our biases, I don't believe in annihilation/soul sleep, but what stands written, Perfect Tense--olemei olamim--forever and ever, no need to twist it.
I don’t believe in soul sleep, either.
I believe in a literal hell (if you were to read my posts in this thread).
I just believe the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) will destroy or annihiate the wicked, the devil, and his minions.
Even death will be destroyed. Paul says in Corinthians that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This suggests that there are other enemies of God before “death” that will be destroyed, too. Think. Something that is destroyed is no more.

Okay. As for words like ”forever” and “eternal.” Are you suggesting that the word “eternal” in the words “eternal judgment” in Hebrews 6:2 will be forever or eternal in the sense that God will be judging the wicked for all eterinity or time that will not end? Surely not. So you cannot always read the word “forever” or “eternal” in the way that you suggest.


Personally, I think you were surprised to see the Greek/Hebrew version in the KJV--I read multiple Bibles, not just the KJV.
Shalom
J.
The KJB was THE BIBLE used for hundreds of years long before the Modern bibles ever showed up. Yes, I also look at Modern bibles, too. I also occasionally look at the original lanugages, but it is rare. The Bible should be believed in English. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The biblical Hebrew and Greek are dead languages that nobody speaks anymore. Most of the world does not speak these languages. But the English is the world language of today.
 

Patrick1966

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The Lamb is present in the LOF for what reason?
Because Jesus, who is merciful and loving, enjoys sticking ice picks into the ears of the bad people.

;)

Just kidding. The only POSSIBLE explanation for torturing people for eternity is that God is a sadist and derives satisfaction from watching people suffer.
 

Bible Highlighter

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You don't? Well, I have a copy of Koine Greek Bible on my table and read it--not Greek scholars?

You honestly want to tell me you don't know of ANY Greek Scholars?!

Show me any page you like in Greek and I can read it--correct, there is a difference in Modern Greek and Koine Greek--I read both--and you need to familiarize yourself with the morphology and parsing/etymology of Greek and Hebrew, as for bias, we ALL have our biases friend, whether you like it or not.

Yes, we can hang up the phone--no problem, esp. as you class me in a "religious group"

I don't let anything "slide" forever and ever is just that, in the KJV--no need to twist it.

Yes, this is called indoctrination--over and over again--sorry friend, we all have our biases, I don't believe in annihilation/soul sleep, but what stands written, Perfect Tense--olemei olamim--forever and ever, no need to twist it.

Personally, I think you were surprised to see the Greek/Hebrew version in the KJV--I read multiple Bibles, not just the KJV.
Shalom
J.
I remember one day when my wife and I were dating before we got married. I tried to impress her by getting a book on Portuguese (Brazillian) and share my knowledge based on the book. When I started to speak she was correcting me non-stop. She said you would not say certain things in that book in all parts of Brazil. So the point here is that first hand experience of growing up in that culture in knowing the language is far different than trying to learn it by some book. Just because you have some book does not mean anything.

It would be like trying to go to China and trying to correct the Chinese people on one of their great literary works (or books) by using an English to Chinese Dictionary. You would simply be laughed at by the Chinese people if you ever tried to do that.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Because Jesus, who is merciful and loving, enjoys sticking ice picks into the ears of the bad people.

;)

Just kidding. The only POSSIBLE explanation for torturing people for eternity is that God is a sadist and derives satisfaction from watching people suffer.
Even ECT proponents will not admit that God is a sadist. That is extreme. I mean, look. I used to believe in ECT and I even tried to defend it like you guys. But it is a hollow defense or pursuit. You cannot explain how God is into fair justice if you believe in ECT. Yet, I already demonstrated by Scripture that God does employ fair justice and not unfair justice.

Everyone knows that if you torture the little kid in a horrible painful way the rest of their adult life for committing a finite amount of crimes is simply unjust and or unfair in regards to justice.

You actually have to admit that your God is not fair when it comes to justice. That is how bad ECT really is.
But of course many of you will just dodge this issue or point.
 

Patrick1966

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The unsaved will be tormented unmercifully in the LOF for infinity due to a finite lifetime of sins and thus separated from God forever. Yet, we are told that though tormented, those in the LOF will be in the presence of Jesus, and the angels per Rev 14:10. The Lamb is present in the LOF for what reason?
It seems that the original Greek uses "torment" as a purifying process. Our modern definition of torment doesn't exactly match the original meaning written by Paul and others. Jesus is there to oversee the purifying process of those thrown into the LOF. Once purified, Jesus will welcome them into his kingdom. Once all have been purified (put under his feet), Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God.


As a verb, basanizo can mean the following things:

  • to test by rubbing on the touchstone
  • to be harrassed
  • be distressed
  • to question by applying torture
  • to vex; torment
 

Patrick1966

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Notice that in this passage Jesus is addressing a particular age of time...
It's been my experience that most Christians are unaware that God works with us in ages. Until they understand this fact, they will not have a decent understanding of God's process.
 
J

Johann

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The problem is that not all scholars agree on what the Greek says. So are you saying you know more than scholars and what makes your interpretation on the Greek better than their own? The KJB Translators were experts in Greek. They spoke, wrote, and read it fluently. I am pretty sure you don’t and or you are going off some recent dictionary that comes from Textual Criticism (like the Strong’s etcetera).
No, some agree, some don't, hence discernment is needed to discern error from truth/eat the chicken, spit out the bones.
Brother, if I gave you the impression that I am a scholar, I'm not, but love hermeneutical works/writings-it is for my epignosis-the Lord knows my heart--this is how I study-not you.
As for me using the original lanuages: While you may be different, the difference between most original language “know it alls” and me on this topic is that I don’t try to explain away the English or act like I am an expert in the original languages. For me: The English is just as authoritative in the KJB. Also, the translators on the KJB spoke, wrote, and read Greek fluently. Again, I don’t think your an expert. I believe your lens is the traditional beliefs of the evangelical church and their interpretation and then you just are following what they say.

I'm not a "know it all" but a late starter, holding myself accountable to three members--I am no expert--fault me on my posts, if you can't, let go.
And why not? James tells his readers about pure religion and how to put that into practice.

James 1:27
“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”
No problem here--are you DOING it? I do.
Okay. As for words like ”forever” and “eternal.” Are you suggesting that the word “eternal” in the words “eternal judgment” in Hebrews 6:2 will be forever or eternal in the sense that God will be judging the wicked for all eterinity or time that will not end? Surely not. So you cannot always read the word “forever” or “eternal” in the way that you suggest.
We can start a new thread on this topic--and go through "olam" and "Chayyei Olam"
The KJB was THE BIBLE used for hundreds of years long before the Modern bibles ever showed up. Yes, I also look at Modern bibles, too. I also occasionally look at the original lanugages, but it is rare. The Bible should be believed in English. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The biblical Hebrew and Greek are dead languages that nobody speaks anymore. Most of the world does not speak these languages. But the English is the world language of today.
Like I have said, this is how I study--I don't expect you to do so.
And there is no pride on my end, there is no room for pride and boasting in our intellectual achievements--I'm sure you would agree with me.
Also, I don't believe Hebrew and Greek are "dead languages"
 

Mr E

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It's been my experience that most Christians are unaware that God works with us in ages. Until they understand this fact, they will not have a decent understanding of God's process.

Most Christians believe what they have been taught...... without thinking about it.
 
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Patrick1966

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and after this millennial period comes the great white throne judgment.
Is it possible that the Great White Throne Judgment is actually not a judgment at all but a celebration wherein Jesus announces that sin and death are destroyed and that ALL will go to live with God in the new Earth?
 

Mr E

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Is it possible that the Great White Throne Judgment is actually not a judgment at all but a celebration wherein Jesus announces that sin and death are destroyed and that ALL will go to live with God in the new Earth?

When people die-- they stand before HIM for judgment. He weighs them in the balance-- their souls. The record of their "life" and determines their worth.

Some HE allows to remain. Some HE cuts off.


Those cut off are reserved for the fire, and they are no more. It's really quite simple.
 

Patrick1966

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Those cut off are reserved for the fire, and they are no more. It's really quite simple.
Jesus will save ALL from eternal death.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
 
J

Johann

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When people die-- they stand before HIM for judgment. He weighs them in the balance-- their souls. The record of their "life" and determines their worth.

Some HE allows to remain. Some HE cuts off.


Those cut off are reserved for the fire, and they are no more. It's really quite simple.
Not what Scriptures is saying--but I'm not here to debate since it brings division among the brethren.
It is appointed once for men to die, and after that the judgement.
The wrath of YHVH is presently abiding on all unbelievers--guess God can do with His clay as He wish--He is the Potter--we, mere pieces of clay, but there is a radical transformation for anyone born again--

In reply, he said to him, Omein, omein, I say to you, unless someone is born anew [born again, Yn 1:13; Dt 10:16; 30:6; Jer 4:4; Isa 52:1; Ezek 44:7,9], he is not able to see the Malchut Hashem.
Joh_3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, It is necessary/dei for you to be born again, born anew.

Really that simple.
J.
 

Patrick1966

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Not what Scriptures is saying--but I'm not here to debate since it brings division among the brethren.
Pride, ego, and vanity should NEVER get in our way of understanding God's word. We're commanded to be HUMBLE and so that is what we must be. :)
 
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Mr E

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Jesus will save ALL from eternal death.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Kind of.

You live.

You die.

You stand before Him.

And your "life" is weighed in the balance. (Judgment).

He told a story about this....

Then Jesus told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it and found none. So he said to the worker who tended the vineyard, ‘For three years now, I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, and each time I inspect it I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue to deplete the soil?’ But the worker answered him, ‘Sir, leave it alone this year too, until I dig around it and put fertilizer on it. Then if it bears fruit next year, very well, but if not, you can cut it down.’”
 

Mr E

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Not what Scriptures is saying--but I'm not here to debate since it brings division among the brethren.
It is appointed once for men to die, and after that the judgement.
The wrath of YHVH is presently abiding on all unbelievers--guess God can do with His clay as He wish--He is the Potter--we, mere pieces of clay, but there is a radical transformation for anyone born again--

In reply, he said to him, Omein, omein, I say to you, unless someone is born anew [born again, Yn 1:13; Dt 10:16; 30:6; Jer 4:4; Isa 52:1; Ezek 44:7,9], he is not able to see the Malchut Hashem.
Joh_3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, It is necessary/dei for you to be born again, born anew.

Really that simple.
J.

You don't know what you are talking about. Consider, not talking about it.
 
J

Johann

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Jesus will save ALL from eternal death.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Would you say "all" would be saved, even if they don't believe?