When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[WPM]

You are avoiding the point of your own accusations.

Hello! You repeated what I wrote. That is what I was talking about.

 

[Timtofly]

The events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ occurs over years of time.

Our mortal bodies being transformed into immortal glorified bodies happens in a "twinkling of an eye"

The 5th Seal is the entire church being glorified in the twinkling of an eye.

That is what I posted.

It is the same twinkling of an eye as the 6th Seal, Second Coming.

The church is not glorified in seperate groups. The Second Coming is not a seperate event from the church being glorified.

The church is glorified in the air at the same time as 2 Peter 3:10 is happening. Jesus is on the way to the Mount of Olives with His angels per Zechariah 14, Matthew 13, and Matthew 25, in the same event as the 5th and 6th Seal.

 

[David in NJ]

The 5th Seal is the entire church being glorified in the twinkling of an eye.

That is what I posted.

It is the same twinkling of an eye as the 6th Seal, Second Coming.

The church is not glorified in seperate groups. The Second Coming is not a seperate event from the church being glorified.

The church is glorified in the air at the same time as 2 Peter 3:10 is happening. Jesus is on the way to the Mount of Olives with His angels per Zechariah 14, Matthew 13, and Matthew 25, in the same event as the 5th and 6th Seal.

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

the white robes are not Resurrected Bodies

 

[Timtofly]

After all of these years of Amils explaining what the Bible says on this subject you act dumb in regards to what the Book teaches.

It is just like a gang leader in prison. He has power and influence in his own world. He has the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison. But the governor and officers control his life and limit his movement and freedom. He cannot do his own thing. Regardless of what that prisoner thinks, he has no real power or authority. He is actually under authority. His life is regulated by rules and regulations that he does not agree with or appreciate. That does not diminish his restrained status.

Comparing Satan to a gang leader in prison is your Amil thought process. It is not found in Scripture.

Name one Scripture that God let's Satan have free control from a prison cell.

I have never once claimed Satan has had unleashed control and authority. That is clearly your point prior to Satan being incarcerated in your Amil theology. You have Satan as the sole authority and power on earth, as obviously all human kingdoms were under his subjection according to you.

That is not in Scripture. The analogy of a strong man in his own house was not literally the condition on earth. That is an Amil interpretation in addition to the analogy.

Your point also implies Jesus had no authority until He arrived on the scene.

This is your version of big Satan and little God.

 

[WPM]

Comparing Satan to a gang leader in prison is your Amil thought process. It is not found in Scripture.

Name one Scripture that God let's Satan have free control from a prison cell.

I have never once claimed Satan has had unleashed control and authority. That is clearly your point prior to Satan being incarcerated in your Amil theology. You have Satan as the sole authority and power on earth, as obviously all human kingdoms were under his subjection according to you.

That is not in Scripture. The analogy of a strong man in his own house was not literally the condition on earth. That is an Amil interpretation in addition to the analogy.

Your point also implies Jesus had no authority until He arrived on the scene.

This is your version of big Satan and little God.

Your BIG-devil small-god Premil theology is exposed throughout the Word of God. I NEVER said Satan had free control from his prison cell. Where did you get that? He is currently held within the boundaries of God's spiritual prison restrained by spiritual chains. He is limited in his movement. He is under constant observation. He is subject to the rule of law (God's Word).

• With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom.
• With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth.
• With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

 

[David in NJ]

Your BIG-devil small-god Premil theology is exposed throughout the Word of God. I NEVER said Satan had free control from his prison cell. Where did you get that? He is currently held within the boundaries of God's spiritual prison restrained by spiritual chains. He is limited in his movement. He is under constant observation. He is subject to the rule of law (God's Word).

• With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom.
• With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth.
• With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

God has satan in chains/bound = he has no movement.

God placed a seal over satan = he has no outside communication with anyone and no influence on anyone or anything.

For the entire creation, both physical and spiritual, satan does not exist during his 1,000 Year lockup.

 

[Timtofly]

Hello! You repeated what I wrote. That is what I was talking about.

That is because you totally avoided what I posted. You never even addressed that post at all. You dismissed it and never even explained why it was original and not worth your attention. I pointed out your error and you just dodged as if I had not even pointed out your error.

 

[WPM]

God has satan in chains/bound = he has no movement.

God placed a seal over satan = he has no outside communication with anyone and no influence on anyone or anything.

For the entire creation, both physical and spiritual, satan does not exist during his 1,000 Year lockup.

Really? That is not what the Bible says. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

 

[Timtofly]

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

the white robes are not Resurrected Bodies

I never said that robes of white are resurrected bodies. They are not.

I said it was the entire church being glorified.

Do I need to define what it is to be glorified?

 

[WPM]

That is because you totally avoided what I posted. You never even addressed that post at all. You dismissed it and never even explained why it was original and not worth your attention. I pointed out your error and you just dodged as if I had not even pointed out your error.

What post did I avoid?

 

[David in NJ]

I never said that robes of white are resurrected bodies. They are not.

I said it was the entire church being glorified.

Do I need to define what it is to be glorified?

YES please define "glorified"

 

[David in NJ]

Really? That is not what the Bible says. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

All those scriptures ( except Rev 20:2) you posted are BEFORE satan is locked up.

Those scriptures are demonstrating Christ's Power/Authority/Victory over satan while he still remains free to roam about seeking whom he may devour.

 

[WPM]

All those scriptures ( except Rev 20:2) you posted are BEFORE satan is locked up.

Those scriptures are demonstrating Christ's Power/Authority/Victory over satan while he still remains free to roam about seeking whom he may devour.

They relate to the earthly ministry of Christ and the great commission. See how the devil was defeated through the cross-work. You promote an impotent Christ and a powerless Church. This is false theology. Like most Premils with a BIG-devil and small-god theology, you refuse to read on 1 Peter 5:8 says: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL. Not so. They relate to the earthly ministry of Christ and the great commission. See how the devil was defeated through the cross-work. You promote an impotent Christ and a powerless Church. This is false theology. Like most Premils with a BIG-devil and small-god theology, you refuse to read on 1 Peter 5:8 says: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Exactly what i said in Post 192

You need to chill out and stop fighting with everyone.

 

[WPM]

Exactly what i said in Post 192

You need to chill out and stop fighting with everyone.

They prove that Satan is bound now. Since this, Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

 

[WPM]

All those scriptures ( except Rev 20:2) you posted are BEFORE satan is locked up.

Those scriptures are demonstrating Christ's Power/Authority/Victory over satan while he still remains free to roam about seeking whom he may devour.

Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

 

[Keraz]

They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period.

Yes, Which plainly, obviously; is yet to happen.
The AMill theory is a contradiction of many scriptures and a total divergence from reality.

We who trust in the Lord and are Bible believers can and should know what He has planned for our future. Paul says: 1 Thessalonians 5:4 You; friends are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. Revelation 1:1 The Lord has revealed His plans to His servants.

We believe that God’s Word is inerrant and complete as presented to us in the Holy Scriptures, therefore it is not right to ignore parts of it, or to say: that must have already happened, and: that does not apply to us, excepting for the obvious.

To hold onto beliefs that do not have solid Bible support, like looking to the Return of Jesus as the next event, or a ‘rapture’ out of this world, is a serious error and may result in some disadvantage for you. The attitude of “I trust in the Lord for protection” is correct, but barely adequate when He has given us so much warning and information.

The actual end times events will surprise and shock those who didn’t bother to gain understanding, even though it will dramatically affect everyone.

The unfortunate part about not knowing our future, is that we miss out on the anticipation of the wonderful and amazing promises that the Lord has made to His people, those who keep His Laws and honour and praise their Creator.

Now, there is a great proliferation of end times misinformation, books, movies, internet, etc. Hopefully people can see through the commercialization and profit making opportunities of these times. But, the biggest problems for church goers, is the lack of preaching about prophecy and the adherence to inadequate Bible translations. How can we properly understand something written 400 years ago? So many Bibles have, at best a translators bias and at worst actual changes to suit certain doctrines.



People quote Matthew 24:36 ...no one knows the day or hour... omitting the full quote, that is; verse 35-36 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away. Yet about THAT Day and hour no one knows... Then Jesus goes on to talk about His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ desecrates the Temple. The verse that explains Matthew 24:35-36 belongs at the time of the end of the Millennium, as Revelation 20:11 says: heaven and earth will flee... at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Why has God given us so many end time prophecies if we can only know afterwards?

To say that it is impossible to know the timing of soon to happen prophesied events, results in a contradiction of Scripture, as several prophets say that we can know God’s plans. Psalms 25:14, Isaiah 46:10, Isaiah 48:16, Amos 3:7, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 1:1

Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come on everyone, the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus.

This Bible passage is not about the Day of the Return, but the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a worldwide fire judgement, the next prophesied event.

We are actually given time periods, figures that many people have grappled with and always come up with incorrect results, because up until now, God has not wanted mankind to know. Now, as we near the ‘two days’ / 2000 years of the church age, we Christians should be at least aware of forthcoming events.

 

[WPM]

Yes, Which plainly, obviously; is yet to happen.
The AMill theory is a contradiction of many scriptures and a total divergence from reality.

We who trust in the Lord and are Bible believers can and should know what He has planned for our future. Paul says: 1 Thessalonians 5:4 You; friends are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. Revelation 1:1 The Lord has revealed His plans to His servants.

We believe that God’s Word is inerrant and complete as presented to us in the Holy Scriptures, therefore it is not right to ignore parts of it, or to say: that must have already happened, and: that does not apply to us, excepting for the obvious.

To hold onto beliefs that do not have solid Bible support, like looking to the Return of Jesus as the next event, or a ‘rapture’ out of this world, is a serious error and may result in some disadvantage for you. The attitude of “I trust in the Lord for protection” is correct, but barely adequate when He has given us so much warning and information.

The actual end times events will surprise and shock those who didn’t bother to gain understanding, even though it will dramatically affect everyone.

The unfortunate part about not knowing our future, is that we miss out on the anticipation of the wonderful and amazing promises that the Lord has made to His people, those who keep His Laws and honour and praise their Creator.

Now, there is a great proliferation of end times misinformation, books, movies, internet, etc. Hopefully people can see through the commercialization and profit making opportunities of these times. But, the biggest problems for church goers, is the lack of preaching about prophecy and the adherence to inadequate Bible translations. How can we properly understand something written 400 years ago? So many Bibles have, at best a translators bias and at worst actual changes to suit certain doctrines.



People quote Matthew 24:36 ...no one knows the day or hour... omitting the full quote, that is; verse 35-36 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away. Yet about THAT Day and hour no one knows... Then Jesus goes on to talk about His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ desecrates the Temple. The verse that explains Matthew 24:35-36 belongs at the time of the end of the Millennium, as Revelation 20:11 says: heaven and earth will flee... at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Why has God given us so many end time prophecies if we can only know afterwards?

To say that it is impossible to know the timing of soon to happen prophesied events, results in a contradiction of Scripture, as several prophets say that we can know God’s plans. Psalms 25:14, Isaiah 46:10, Isaiah 48:16, Amos 3:7, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 1:1

Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come on everyone, the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus.

This Bible passage is not about the Day of the Return, but the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a worldwide fire judgement, the next prophesied event.

We are actually given time periods, figures that many people have grappled with and always come up with incorrect results, because up until now, God has not wanted mankind to know. Now, as we near the ‘two days’ / 2000 years of the church age, we Christians should be at least aware of forthcoming events.

And what exactly is your rebuttal?

 

[David in NJ]

They prove that Satan is bound now. Since this, Revelation 20 describes the defeat and binding (or curtailment) of Satan for the expressed purpose of the Gospel invading the nations and removing the deception that blinded the Gentiles before Christ's first resurrection. When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Satan has not yet been locked up as in Rev ch20

 

[WPM]

Satan has not yet been locked up as in Rev ch20

Not true!

1. Satan is a spiritual being.
2. Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.
3. Revelation is saturated in figurative language.
4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.
5. Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.
6. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.