When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[Timtofly]

Not a Pretribber. That is because it blows apart what they have learned from their Left Behind novels.

So the church has not been called out of the world for the last 6,000 years? All pre-trib calling out. The church is still on earth, all of her? Where are they hiding? Where are they waiting for the tribulation of the last 6,000 years to finish?

If your tribulation is the last 6,000 years, since Satan tempted Eve, how would any be called out prior to Eve being tempted? Was Noah called out pre-trib of Israel in Egypt, or did Noah have to wait in a cave somewhere to this day? Certainly Noah is pre-trib of all tribulation after him. Even your definition does not negate being called out pre-trib.

“ekklesia.” This word is the Greek word kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out).

 

[WPM]

You cannot present Scripture that states Amil.

It is a taught doctrine. It is man-made. That is why you cannot answer a simple question or provide basic support.

Who was beheaded in the first century for refusing the mark of the beast?

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

LOL. It might actually be refreshing for you to come up with something original.

 

[Timtofly]

Hello! Where is your rapture in Revelation? Where is your 7-years tribulation? Where is your 3rd coming. You make so many assumptions without actually proving anything. What is more, Christians are on earth through the tribulation in Revelation. Read it. It started after the earthly ministry of Christ. Notwithstanding, the redeemed are protected from the wrath upon the wicked, but they are subject to the wrath of Satan/antichrist. These are 2 completely different tribulations.

It is time you you to come up with some solid biblical evidence or we can just dismiss this for what it is: a 19th century Jesuit invention.

And this is not mocking Scripture?

You have a weird way of doing things you then accuse others of.

 

[WPM]

You cannot present Scripture that states Amil.

It is a taught doctrine. It is man-made. That is why you cannot answer a simple question or provide basic support.

Who was beheaded in the first century for refusing the mark of the beast?

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

If you would actually examine the biblical evidence instead of always fighting it you might actually see it. The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Matthew 13:29, 49, 28:20, John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5 all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. A far more glorious age will then be ushered in. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

 

[WPM]

And this is not mocking Scripture?

You have a weird way of doing things you then accuse others of.

Again, no answers just more avoidance.

 

[WPM]

So no one is raised first? All humans are raised secondly?

You should explain that to Paul. The dead in Christ will not rise first. According to you they will all rise in addition to at any point in time.

That is not teaching that the first resurrection is future. It is simply indicating that the dead precede the living believers when Jesus comes. According to your rational, that would mean the living believers cannot be part of the first resurrection (only the dead) whereas our part in it is the means of overcoming the second death.

Every argument Premils give ends up destroying another element of Premil.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus will not Return to earth until the 5th Seal is Completed as stated by God.

Jesus Second Coming is not until the 6th Seal

Paul claims both events happen in a twinkling of an eye. The same twinkling of an eye. John just describes them in greater detail, not two totally separate events. John slows down God's twinkling of an eye event and elaborates on the detail.

 

[WPM]

So the church has not been called out of the world for the last 6,000 years? All pre-trib calling out. The church is still on earth, all of her? Where are they hiding? Where are they waiting for the tribulation of the last 6,000 years to finish?

If your tribulation is the last 6,000 years, since Satan tempted Eve, how would any be called out prior to Eve being tempted? Was Noah called out pre-trib of Israel in Egypt, or did Noah have to wait in a cave somewhere to this day? Certainly Noah is pre-trib of all tribulation after him. Even your definition does not negate being called out pre-trib.

“ekklesia.” This word is the Greek word kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out).

I do not have a clue of what you're trying to say or ask here. I hope you do.

 

[David in NJ]

Paul claims both events happen in a twinkling of an eye. The same twinkling of an eye. John just describes them in greater detail, not two totally separate events. John slows down God's twinkling of an eye event and elaborates on the detail.

The events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ occurs over years of time.

Our mortal bodies being transformed into immortal glorified bodies happens in a "twinkling of an eye"

 

[Timtofly]

Mock the Scriptures all you want, but it just exposes the impotence of Premil. Jesus taught this so your fight is with Him.

I was pointing out your lack of Scripture.

That is not mocking Scripture.

That would be mocking your lack of Scripture.

You did not even address the point that you failed to use Scripture.

Address the point you made without Scripture instead of changing your point to one that includes Scripture.

WPM said:
The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

You claim the tribulation is Satan's outpouring of wrath for centuries. At the same time Satan has been bound from deceiving people.

Do you not contradict yourself when you say Satan can persecute all humans, but cannot keep them in bondage?

People persecute each other. People even keep other people in bondage. Literally, Satan is not needed at all, once he got Adam to disobey God.

Yes, Satan is constantly complaining to God that God treats humans too well.

I think Satan has been influential in how humans shape their philosophy. 2 Thessalonians 2 is Paul's statement on the topic. Satan has totally seperated human thought from the Word of God. Even those who think they have a grasp on God's Word are deceieved by Satan in some pseudo understanding that is not from the Holy Spirit at all. Any one can quote Scripture, even Satan.

Your verses are about Satan's bondage. The post I quoted was your claim Satan's persecution is great tribulation. Can we go back to that, or play 20 questions, while you keep avoiding your own claim?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. It might actually be refreshing for you to come up with something original.

That is funny, as every thing people make up is original. Since I don't make stuff up, I will never satisfy your need that I bring an original thought to the table.

But now that you have pointed this out, you can no longer claim I make stuff up.

I doubt you will remember that though.

Obviously you will keep claiming avoidance, sweeping claims, but certainly I will never make stuff up. Every point I make is from Scripture, not from me nor any other human, so it seems. As you pointed out, no originality whatsoever.

But way to go, and you totally avoided every thing in that post.

 

[WPM]

I was pointing out your lack of Scripture.

That is not mocking Scripture.

That would be mocking your lack of Scripture.

You did not even address the point that you failed to use Scripture.

Address the point you made without Scripture instead of changing your point to a one that includes Scripture.

WPM said:
The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

You claim the tribulation is Satan's outpouring of wrath for centuries. At the same time Satan has been bound from deceiving people.

Do you not contradict yourself when you say Satan can persecute all humans, but cannot keep them in bondage?

People persecute each other. People even keep other people in bondage. Literally, Satan is not needed at all, once he got Adam to disobey God.

Yes, Satan is constantly complaining to God that God treats humans too well.

I think Satan has been influential in how humans shape their philosophy. 2 Thessalonians 2 is Paul's statement on the topic. Satan has totally seperated human thought from the Word of God. Even those who think they have a grasp on God's Word are deceieved by Satan in some pseudo understanding that is not from the Holy Spirit at all. Any one can quote Scripture, even Satan.

Your verses are about Satan's bondage. The post I quoted was your claim Satan's persecution is great tribulation. Can we go back to that, or play 20 questions, while you keep avoiding your own claim?

After all of these years of Amils explaining what the Bible says on this subject you act dumb in regards to what the Book teaches.

It is just like a gang leader in prison. He has power and influence in his own world. He has the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison. But the governor and officers control his life and limit his movement and freedom. He cannot do his own thing. Regardless of what that prisoner thinks, he has no real power or authority. He is actually under authority. His life is regulated by rules and regulations that he does not agree with or appreciate. That does not diminish his restrained status.

 

[WPM]

That is funny, as every thing people make up is original. Since I don't make stuff up, I will never satisfy your need that I bring an original thought to the table.

But now that you have pointed this out, you can no longer claim I make stuff up.

I doubt you will remember that though.

Obviously you will keep claiming avoidance, sweeping claims, but certainly I will never make stuff up. Every point I make is from Scripture, not from me nor any other human, so it sems. As you pointed out, no originality whatsoever.

But way to go, and you totally avoided every thing in that post.

Hello! You repeated what I wrote. That is what I was talking about.

 

[Timtofly]

If you would actually examine the biblical evidence instead of always fighting it you might actually see it. The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 25:12-13, 37:9-11, 22, 28-36, 34, Proverbs 2:21-22, 10:30, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:24, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). One must be qualified to inherit the new earth. They must be worthy to enter that age (Luke 20:35). Only glorified saints can inherit the glorified earth. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Matthew 13:29, 49, 28:20, John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5 all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. A far more glorious age will then be ushered in. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

I have never claimed the Millennium was the same old same old tired human existence.

That is your current Day of the Lord.

The Second Coming does bring an end to this current condition. The Day of the Lord is coming, not a has been.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Amil read this verse:

"But the day of the Lord will end as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Amil can claim that as their original thought they came up with, but the Day of the Lord does not end at the Second Coming in 2 Peter 3:10. That is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is coming meaning just arriving. It is just getting started, not ending, at the Second Coming.

You should start claiming 2 Peter 3 starts in the first century to not contradict you claim Revelation 20 also starts in the first century. That is the beginning of your Day of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Again, no answers just more avoidance.

You are avoiding the point of your own accusations.

 

[Timtofly]

That is not teaching that the first resurrection is future. It is simply indicating that the dead precede the living believers when Jesus comes. According to your rational, that would mean the living believers cannot be part of the first resurrection (only the dead) whereas our part in it is the means of overcoming the second death.

Every argument Premils give ends up destroying another element of Premil.

The first resurrection happened to Lazarus. That is the point you are avoiding. You demand that only Christ rose first, and all others are secondary.

I have stated many times that "first" is not a chronological statement. It is a type. But you avoid addressing that, and call it my "original nonsense".

The first resurrection is physical. All first resurrections whenever they occur are physical. That is John 3 the basics of the Gospel.

In fact according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, the physical resurrection body is ready in Paradise when the soul leaves this physical body of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is a first resurrection every time a soul changes from one physical body to the next physical body. It happens since the Cross as a bypass to death and the grave as those in Christ can never die again. They literally pass from death, this physical body, into life. They never physically die, as the spiritual birth removes the reality of physical death.

Jesus claimed to be the Resurrection and the Life months if not days before the Cross. He did not claim that after the Cross, He would become the Resurrection and the Life.

No one in Christ currently in Paradise are going to shed God's permanent body to reclaim a dead physical body in the ground, that will then be changed back into God's permanent body. You would claim that as nonsense, yet that is exactly what you claim, in your interpretation of Paul.

The first resurrection is not spiritual, it is the change from one physical body to another. The first birth is not spiritual. It is physical in the water of the womb.

The second birth, death, and resurrection is spiritual.

The first resurrection has nothing to do with pre-mill nor the Second Coming. Amil make it all about themselves and their ideology, and even quote Scripture. The first resurrection can happen at any time, and even before the Resurrection of Christ. It is not a chronological issue.

People who make it chronological contradict Scripture, and then have to justify their changing Scripture to fit their ideology.

 

[Timtofly]

I do not have a clue of what you're trying to say or ask here. I hope you do.

You are the one claiming a tribulation that last "hundreds" of years. Just pointing out you don't understand pre-trib.

You don't agree that there is a tribulation for the redeemed since the Cross as opposed to a short tribulation for Israel they have never faced prior to the Second Coming. Those are the two distinct times of trouble given in the Olivet Discourse.


WPM said:
The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

These are your words, no?

 

[WPM]

I have never claimed the Millennium was the same old same old tired human existence.

That is your current Day of the Lord.

The Second Coming does bring an end to this current condition. The Day of the Lord is coming, not a has been.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Amil read this verse:

"But the day of the Lord will end as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Amil can claim that as their original thought they came up with, but the Day of the Lord does not end at the Second Coming in 2 Peter 3:10. That is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is coming meaning just arriving. It is just getting started, not ending, at the Second Coming.

You should start claiming 2 Peter 3 starts in the first century to not contradict you claim Revelation 20 also starts in the first century. That is the beginning of your Day of the Lord.

Really? Billions of sinful wicked rebels overrun your glorious millennium at the end and die.

 

[WPM]

You are the one claiming a tribulation that last "hundreds" of years. Just pointing out you don't understand pre-trib.

You don't agree that there is a tribulation for the redeemed since the Cross as opposed to a short tribulation for Israel they have never faced prior to the Second Coming. Those are the two distinct times of trouble given in the Olivet Discourse.


WPM said:
The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

These are your words, no?

Are you Pretrib?

 

[WPM]

The first resurrection happened to Lazarus. That is the point you are avoiding. You demand that only Christ rose first, and all others are secondary.

I have stated many times that "first" is not a chronological statement. It is a type. But you avoid addressing that, and call it my "original nonsense".

The first resurrection is physical. All first resurrections whenever they occur are physical. That is John 3 the basics of the Gospel.

In fact according to Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, the physical resurrection body is ready in Paradise when the soul leaves this physical body of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is a first resurrection every time a soul changes from one physical body to the next physical body. It happens since the Cross as a bypass to death and the grave as those in Christ can never die again. They literally pass from death, this physical body, into life. They never physically die, as the spiritual birth removes the reality of physical death.

Jesus claimed to be the Resurrection and the Life months if not days before the Cross. He did not claim that after the Cross, He would become the Resurrection and the Life.

No one in Christ currently in Paradise are going to shed God's permanent body to reclaim a dead physical body in the ground, that will then be changed back into God's permanent body. You would claim that as nonsense, yet that is exactly what you claim, in your interpretation of Paul.

The first resurrection is not spiritual, it is the change from one physical body to another. The first birth is not spiritual. It is physical in the water of the womb.

The second birth, death, and resurrection is spiritual.

The first resurrection has nothing to do with pre-mill nor the Second Coming. Amil make it all about themselves and their ideology, and even quote Scripture. The first resurrection can happen at any time, and even before the Resurrection of Christ. It is not a chronological issue.

People who make it chronological contradict Scripture, and then have to justify their changing Scripture to fit their ideology.

Why are you so determined to undermine Christ's first resurrection? What is more, why did you not address my explanation of 1 Thess 4? You always deviate off the subject.

Lazarus was temporarily brought to life. He did not defeat the grave before Jesus. He doubtless went the way of all men - the grave. It was only after Christ's death that the dead in Christ escaped Hades to be with Jesus forever.

Lazarus never conquered the grave. Jesus was the first to do that. Please read the Scriptures above that you have been careful to avoid.