What does it mean to be born again?

[marks]

John said they can not live in sin.. Lets just take John at his word.

Good point! We start there!

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

That appears to be stated exactly backwards to me…

Well the references given are circumcising etc …,,,

 

[marks]

Seems to me that Paul is saying that sin is the observance of the law.

Where do you see that?

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

Philippians 3:4-5 KJV
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
He is stating practice of the old laws is the flesh.

 

[Keturah]

Philippians 3:4-11 KJV
4) Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Much love!

9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well the references given are circumcising etc …,,,

Yeah but…you literally just said: sin is the observance of the law.
That HAS to be wrong.

 

[marks]

LUKE CHAPTER 18 KJV
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am NOT as other mmen are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 | fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

I see the blowing of ones own shofar as the Pharisee telling God " How worthy he was" as opposed to his counter fellow who wouldn't even dare to lift himself up B4 the Lord!

Which exhibited humility ?

The tax collector was being honest. The Pharisee was in denial. The Pharisee compared himself to others. He believed his own poor opinions of others, but dishonestly, as a means of maintaining his denial of his true state.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Yes, yes, how we can get so stuck in Romans 6 that we neglect moving on through Romans 7 into Romans 8 where the victory lies. The point is not to get selective about the passages that we think justify our present cond

Philippians 3:4-5 KJV
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
He is stating practice of the old laws is the flesh.

You are quoting in part.....

Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Did Paul still considered himself as such in 3.5-6?

 

[Waiting on him]

Yeah but…you literally just said: sin is the observance of the law.
That HAS to be wrong.

I didn’t say it, Paul did.

 

[Waiting on him]

You are quoting in part.....

Php 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Did Paul still considered himself as such in 3.5-6?

Yes. He’s saying the law found him blameless. But he wasn’t.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I didn’t say it, Paul did.

Oh my gosh. Lol.
If you think Paul meant to say, the definition of sin is to obey Gods laws, something in your thinking is quite wrong.

 

[marks]

So this is where I lack understanding. Paul seems to speaking of what he tore down as his observation of Old Testament laws.

I never even heard of or observed these laws prior to Christianity so how does this have anything to do with me? Unless of course I’ve only been role playing?

OK, now I understand what you are saying.

Galatians 2:16-19 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

To be honest, verse 18, I see it possibly meaning a couple of different things, and I'm not thoroughly settled on how I understand it.

In the way you are looking at this, which I don't disagree with, Paul counts putting himself back under the Law as making himself a transgressor.

Romans 4:14-16 KJV
14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Where there is no Law, no one is a lawbreaker.

There is another way I see this verse also, as God is renewing our minds, this is leading us away from sin. But if we return to sin, we are "unrenewing" our minds, rebuilding the fleshy mind, and reaping the result.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Yes. He’s saying the law found him blameless. But he wasn’t.

Found blameless (genomenos amemptos). “Having become blameless” (Gal_1:14). He knew and practised all the rules of the rabbis. A marvellous record, scoring a hundred in Judaism.

Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless; he rises higher yet in his personal obedience; he might have been a zealot in his sect, and yet a hypocrite, if not of a scandalous life; but it seems, in the external observation of those things which the ceremonial or moral law did prescribe, he was, in the eye of man, of a blameless conversation, resembling Zacharias and Elisabeth, Luk_1:6. Men could not tax him, he had behaved himself so conscientiously, Act_23:1; yet when he had his eyes opened, he found here was no such matter of confidence for him before God, 1Sa_16:7 1Co_4:4.

This external performance he found, when enlightened, was far short of internal and perfect obedience, Rom_7:7; and therefore he saw it necessary to change the ground and foundation of his confidence, all that he before rested on, unto Christ alone, 1Co_3:11 2Co_5:17; not seeking to receive honour from men, but that from Christ only, Joh_5:44.
Poole

And I fully concur.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. He’s saying the law found him blameless. But he wasn’t.

Yes. Because the inside of your cup can be filthy while the outside looks clean to yourself and others.
So as to an outward keeping of the law, yes he was blameless.
But the law is not the letter for the outside. That leads to death. The law is the spirit for the inside.

 

[marks]

Yes. He’s saying the law found him blameless. But he wasn’t.

I don't know about that. Others are said to be righteous under the Law. I just tend to believe these straightfoward statements.

The Law made provision to cover sin, and in the faithful keeping of that part of the Law, unrighteousness was covered by the sacrifice.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

Oh my gosh. Lol.
If you think Paul meant to say, the definition of sin is to obey Gods laws, something in your thinking is quite wrong.

Romans 7:5 KJV
[5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Ephesians 2:15 KJV
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The law was contrary to them!

Paul makes it very clear it was the observation of these Moses commands was what was their flesh

John 1:17 KJV
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[marks]

Found blameless (genomenos amemptos). “Having become blameless” (Gal_1:14). He knew and practised all the rules of the rabbis. A marvellous record, scoring a hundred in Judaism.

Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless; he rises higher yet in his personal obedience; he might have been a zealot in his sect, and yet a hypocrite, if not of a scandalous life; but it seems, in the external observation of those things which the ceremonial or moral law did prescribe, he was, in the eye of man, of a blameless conversation, resembling Zacharias and Elisabeth, Luk_1:6. Men could not tax him, he had behaved himself so conscientiously, Act_23:1; yet when he had his eyes opened, he found here was no such matter of confidence for him before God, 1Sa_16:7 1Co_4:4.

This external performance he found, when enlightened, was far short of internal and perfect obedience, Rom_7:7; and therefore he saw it necessary to change the ground and foundation of his confidence, all that he before rested on, unto Christ alone, 1Co_3:11 2Co_5:17; not seeking to receive honour from men, but that from Christ only, Joh_5:44.
Poole

And I fully concur.

Yes, his "own" righteousness was seen by him as so deficient it was nothing more than manure compared to the righteousness of God by faith.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So this is where I lack understanding. Paul seems to speaking of what he tore down as his observation of Old Testament laws.

I never even heard of or observed these laws prior to Christianity so how does this have anything to do with me? Unless of course I’ve only been role playing?

Those laws he called a schoolmaster to lead us to christ. As they showed you fell short of his standard.

its not about observing them, its about the fact we could not observe them as God required.. perfectly.

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes. Because the inside of your cup can be filthy while the outside looks clean to yourself and others.
So as to an outward keeping of the law, yes he was blameless.
But the law is not the letter for the outside. That leads to death. The law is the spirit for the inside.

I don’t believe so, no one was ever reconciled to God through that law.

 

[Episkopos]

We don't need to get stuck anywhere, but we also don't skip over portions.

I think the point is that we come to understand the entire passage, shouldn't we? Including all of these chapters? And without understanding our baptism into Christ, will we have a true understanding of what follows?

Much love!

Having personally experienced up to Romans 8, I can say that the layout of Paul shows us that we shouldn't be stopping and justifying ourselves based on Romans 6. What do you say?