Truth7t7
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New Covenant only for Jews?
- Thread starter Mike Tang 1991
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BreadOfLife
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Then YOU agree with the Catholic Church. Catholics are not requires to pray the Rosary.
However - your Protestant Fathers prayed the Rosary and venerated Mary as the Mother of God.
Soooo, if tthe Protestant Revolt was so "great" and "sanctioned" by God - WHY do you Protestants of today flatly reject the teachings of your Protestant Fathers??
BreadOfLife
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Sooooo, you couldnt think of a SINGLE intelligent readon why - or is it that you just DON'T know?
Truth7t7
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The Catholic Church Teaches Heresy, Just As The Catholic Catechism Below Shows, Mary Doesn't Bring Eternal Salvation "Heresy"!
Romans 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Catholic Catechism)
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
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Illuminator
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Stop with the viscous lies. The catechism says no such thing.
Jesus never condemned repetitious prayer, He condemned VANITY, and whenever fundies get proven wrong on any given point, they automatically derail by jumping on the unbiblical anti-Mary bandwagon.
The next paragraph:
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
Fashioning weapons from the catechism (with no context) to attack the Church is a form of witchcraft, IMO.
Matt Slick (CARM) abuses the catechism in the same way, deceiving his followers.
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Truth7t7
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No lies whatsoever, Mary doesn't intercede as Mediatrix, nor does she bring the gift of eternal salvation, a Catholic heretical lie!
The Catholic Church Teaches Heresy, Just As The Catholic Catechism Below Shows, Mary Doesn't Bring Eternal Salvation "Heresy"!
Romans 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Catholic Catechism)
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
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Your incomprehension is beyond comprehension. Quote my claim that Catholics are not required to pray the rosary.
Provide links, names, sources, dates, and verbatim quotes of recognized Reformers who prayed the rosary during the Reformation.
Provide links, names, sources, dates, and verbatim quotes of recognized Reformers who venerated Mary as the Mother of God during the Reformation.
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Brakelite
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Do you honestly believe that any Protestant claims that they discovered all truth overnight? Are you denying them the privilege of learning over time... The same privilege you afford the early church fathers in coming into a place of doctrinal understanding that formed the basis of catholicism? The same privilege any Bible scholar would apply to the apostles add they entered into life without the physical presence of the Teacher to guide them? Did they not learn over the ensuing decades regarding several essential doctrinal beliefs? The gospel to the gentiles. The power and meaning of the resurrection. The ministry of Christ as intercessor and High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.
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Brakelite
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True. The reformation was the birth of emancipation from the tyranny of despotism. What's even more dangerous now is that which isn't so easily recognizable, that which someone long before me expressed, the despotism of toleration. The protestant world is taking into a state of deception in thinking that because Rome now tolerates protestantism, this somehow equates with freedom, and the Antichrist, the leopard, had changed her spots. But toleration only lasts as long as people change their underwear. Intolerance is ever only just around the corner. And despite the revisionist lies denying the depth of darkness that prevailed over Europe for 1000 years, Rome will return... Briefly... To her former intolerant nature, and it will be apostate protestantism that will enthrone her.
Brakelite
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Mmmm. Interesting that. Required of whom? Penance, in relation to the confessional and inclusive of it, to my young mind, was a requirement in order to receive forgiveness of sin. Penance, every single time, without exception, included the repetition of prayers taken from the rosary, the number dependant on the mood of the priest and his perception of the severity of the sins confessed. But required nevertheless. As to the need for a priestly confessional and inevitable penance, that's a discussion for another time.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
"tyranny of despotism", yes, according to Lenin and Marx. You would be loved in North Korea and China.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Running from paragraph 970 shows your prejudice. Mary's intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation, not Mary herself. The so called "reformers" unbiblically rejected all human intercession, and invented a new religion.
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 6
This paragraph exposes your lies with your obvious false interpretation of one paragraph, just like the professional liar Matt Slick. We are constantly reminded that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man, as if we didn't know that.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
No need to. Catholics are not required to practice any devotion. I'll say it again for clarity: Catholics are not required to pray the rosary. A devotion is not doctrinal.
An unrealistic demand since the reformers rejected all human intercession. You won't accept my evidence of the reformers beliefs about Mary because you are a slave to 18th century cover-ups invented by Modernist liberals.
John Calvin: It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
Ulrich Zwingli:
We might wonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survive in the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists. This break with the past did not come through any new discovery or revelation. The Reformers themselves (see above) took a benign even positive view of Marian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation because of their rejection of all human mediation. Moreover, while there were some excesses in popular Marian piety, Marian doctrine as taught in the pre-Reformation era drew its inspiration from the witness of Scripture and was rooted in Christology. The real reason for the break with the past must be attributed to the iconoclastic passion of the followers of the Reformation and the consequences of some Reformation principles. Even more influential in the break with Mary was the influence of the Enlightenment Era which essentially questioned or denied the mysteries of faith.
Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences. This "cover-up" can be detected even in Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology.
One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modern Protestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner". He then asks if it is "a favourable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"!17
What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.
1 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107.Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences. This "cover-up" can be detected even in Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology.
One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modern Protestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner". He then asks if it is "a favourable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"!17
What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.
2 Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.
3 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,
English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.
Louis], Volume 4, 694.
4 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.
5 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works
(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.
6 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.
7 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.
8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.
9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.
17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.
9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.
17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
further reading:
www.patheos.com
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.
17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
further reading:
"Why Should Anyone Care About Early Protestant Mariology?"
If one is interested in the history of theology and development of doctrine (as I am, very much so), early Protestant Mariology is utterly fascinating.
www.patheos.com
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
You know, there's some mighty fine wordsmithing in that quote, and it sure sounds very religious, sincere, and deeply spiritual, which I am sure, was the original intention. But good intentions unfortunately can have some serious consequences, and it is one specific consequence however that I have an issue with. And that consequence is clearly demonstrated throughout catholicism. Mary has displaced her Son in the minds and hearts of millions of otherwise sincerely God loving folk throughout the world. Millions pray to Mary expecting blessings, protection, and salvation as a result of their prayers, and when they see what they believe to be results in their life, they thank Mary and issue her for her grace, mercy, love, and fidelity. Mary is exalted instead of Christ. Mary is praised instead of Christ. Mary is elevated to a pedestal and venerated, honored, trusted, and yes worshipped, instead of Christ. And that my friend is the essence of the Spirit of Antichrist. And that elevating of Mary, a human being when all said and done, to the level of the Godhead, is idolatry, but she isn't the only concern. Almost everything within catholicism, from the mass to the priesthood, from confession to the eucharist, from prayers to saints to the granting of indulgences and all manner of stuff in between, all replace Christ to some degree or another, and is Antichrist. Which is why the reformers, at least on that matter, were all in agreement.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Of course. All the reformers were liars, ignorant deceived heretical self serving cowards who walked away from a harmoniously united benevolent loving community of saints, and they were completely wrong in their accusations of the larceny, the pleasure seeking, the violence, the immorality, blasphemy, prophetic fulfillment and corruption of the priesthood, particularly on Rome. They made it all up. And my name is really Engels.
BreadOfLife
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Uhhhh, NOT exactly.
Your Protestant Fathers prayed the Rosary, believed in the Eucharist and venerated Mary as Mother of God.
The rejection of these things occurred over time as their successors became more and more rebellious and splintered . . .
Martin Luther:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
"St. Paul says 'God sent his Son born of a woman, ' These words which I hold for true, really sustain quite firmly that Mary is the Mother of God."
(Martin Luther, Martin Luther's Works, vol. 7, pg 592)
John Calvin
It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary as at the same time the eternal God.
(Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35)
John Wycliffe
"It seems to me impossible that we should obtain the reward of Heaven without the help of Mary. There is no sex or age, no rank or position, of anyone in the whole human race, which has no need to call for the help of the Holy Virgin." [Sermon on Mary]
Ulrich Zwingli
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God".
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow". [The Works of Zwingli, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905].
Your statements above in RED are either:
a. A flat out LIE
b. A woefully-ignorant claim
I’m guessing by your statement, that you were ONCE a practicing Catholic. UNFORTUNATELY, you didn’t learn much – which is ALWAYS the case with anti-Catholics like you.
Prayers of penance are not a “requirement” for forgiveness. It is a time for the penitent person to REFLECT on their sins and resolve NOT to repeat them.
Sometimes the priest will suggest making amends with someone or similar, depending on what was confessed.
HOWEVER – whether prayers or suggested actions – NEITHER are “required” for forgiveness.
So, YOU claims above are completely FALSE.
BreadOfLife
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The utter stupidity of your post is astounding.
The Church doesn’t teach that Mary SAVES us, Einstein.
She intercedes for us just like your friends and family do - so your entire rant is moot.
Do your homework . . .
From
Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?
From Luther's Works:No need to. Catholics are not required to practice any devotion. I'll say it again for clarity: Catholics are not required to pray the rosary. A devotion is not doctrinal.
An unrealistic demand since the reformers rejected all human intercession. You won't accept my evidence of the reformers beliefs about Mary because you are a slave to 18th century cover-ups invented by Modernist liberals.
John Calvin: It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
Ulrich Zwingli:
We might wonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survive in the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists. This break with the past did not come through any new discovery or revelation. The Reformers themselves (see above) took a benign even positive view of Marian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation because of their rejection of all human mediation. Moreover, while there were some excesses in popular Marian piety, Marian doctrine as taught in the pre-Reformation era drew its inspiration from the witness of Scripture and was rooted in Christology. The real reason for the break with the past must be attributed to the iconoclastic passion of the followers of the Reformation and the consequences of some Reformation principles. Even more influential in the break with Mary was the influence of the Enlightenment Era which essentially questioned or denied the mysteries of faith.1 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107.
Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences. This "cover-up" can be detected even in Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology.
One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modern Protestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner". He then asks if it is "a favourable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"!17
What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.
2 Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.
3 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,
English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.
Louis], Volume 4, 694.
4 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.
5 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works
(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.
6 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.
7 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.
8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.
9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.
17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.
9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.
10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.
11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639
12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.
13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.
14 Ibid.
15 Ibid.
16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.
17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
further reading:
"Why Should Anyone Care About Early Protestant Mariology?"
If one is interested in the history of theology and development of doctrine (as I am, very much so), early Protestant Mariology is utterly fascinating.
Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?
BreadOfLife
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Ummmm, the difference us that the Early Church Fathers didn’t splinter off and do their OWN thing by breaking off into factions. The things they wrote about and debated were for the ONE Catholic Church, although few of them, like Tertullian and Origen eventually went into heresy.
That the Protestants of today have strayed away from the teachings of their Protestant Fathers illustrates the devastating effects of perpetual splintering – and the arrogance of the inventors of all of the new doctrines since then.
Protestants are always quick to remind us about the ”simplicity” of the Gospel.
If that were the case – WHY are there thousands of different factions that ALL teach different doctrines and precepts?
BreadOfLife
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And of the perpetusallu-splintering monster he created, Luther lamented:
"There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams." - Martin Luther, Christians at Antwerp, 1525
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