Another Premillennial absurdity

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m getting confused! Who in here thinks the first resurrection/gathering together to meet the Lord/rapture occurs BEFORE the tribulation? I have a question for those men if they are here.

 

[WPM]

I ducked around nothing. It's you who have repeatedly avoided providing any Premil belief, old or new, that states, unequivocally, that the Millennial earth will be "corrupt" and "goat-infested." I've got nothing but silence from you. So you divert to other things.

Let me be clear about this so nobody is fooled by your claims. Premills generally believe that the Millennial earth will be peopled by *mortals* with a Sin Nature. That is the definition of "mortal," ie someone who has a Sin Nature and who will therefore die.

There has never been any mystery about this. So you seem to be trying to divert away from your complete failure to prove your stated belief, that Premills teach a "goat-infested world."

Anybody reading this can discern the difference between a mortal population that is under Satan's influence and a mortal population that is not under Satan's influence. The present world exists under the rule of Satan. The Millennial world will exist without Satan's influence and incitement.

Exactly! You believe in a sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium, as i allege. I rest my case!

You have no understanding that sin is innate to all humans even if Satan dropped dead tomorrow. This is elementary Christian doctrine. I will give you 23 evidences of man’s innate depravity outside of Christ.

1. The Bible says that prior to salvation he is a spiritual corpse that is “dead in … sins” (Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13).
2. Prior to salvation he is spiritually “blind” (Matthew 13:13, 15-16 & 2 Corinthians 4:4).
3. Prior to salvation he is spiritually “deaf” ((Psalms 58:4, Ezekiel 12:2 & Matthew 13:13, 15-16).
4. Prior to salvation he is “by nature a child of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3).
5. The Bible says that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).
6. The Bible says that “they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them” (1 Corinthians 2:14).
7. The Bible says “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).
8. Prior to salvation one is spiritually a “prisoner” of Satan (Isaiah 14:17, 42:6 & 61:1).
9. Prior to salvation one is bound in “chains” of sin (Psalms 68:6, 107:8-16 and Isaiah 61:1).
10. Outside of Christ there is “none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:10).
11. Outside of Christ there is “none righteous” (Romans 3:10).
12. Outside of Christ there is “none that understandeth” (Romans 3:10).
13. Outside of Christ there is “none that doeth good” (Romans 3:10).
14. Prior to salvation the unregenerate does not hear the words of Christ (John 8:43-44).
15. Prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to come to Christ (John 6:44).
16. Prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).
17. Prior to salvation the unregenerate is not able to please God (Romans 8:8).
18. Prior to salvation you are “alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works” (Col 1:21).
19. Outside of Christ there man (“the old man”) is “corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” (Ephesians 4:22).
20. Outside of Christ there you were ‘vain in your imaginations, and your foolish heart was darkened’ (Romans 1:21).
21. Outside of Christ you were ‘walking in the vanity of your mind, Having your understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that was in you, because of the blindness of your heart” (Ephesians 4:17-19).
22. Outside of Christ the Bible says “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9).
23. The Bible says that outside of Christ “I know nothing by myself” (1 Corinthians 4:4).

Does this all suddenly dissolve when Satan is bound in your supposed future millennium?

As fallen human mortals are your millennial phonies suddenly not “by nature the children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3)?

As fallen human mortals are your millennial phonies suddenly not “estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born” (Psalms 58:3-11 says,)?

As fallen human mortals are your millennial phonies suddenly not “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me”(Psalms 51:5)?

Is “Foolishness" not "bound in the heart of a child” born in your supposed future millennium (Proverbs 22:15)?

 

[farouk]

Hi WPM,

So are saying that when the Lord comes, in one day He will deliver Israel, bring vengeance upon the rebellious, judge the sheep and goats, have living water flow out to the polluted waters, have the trees grow fruit for medicine, (Ez. 47: 8 - 12, Zech. 14: 8) the nations go up to Jerusalem to worship the king at the feast of tabernacles, the lion laying down with the lamb on God`s holy mountain, and then Satan locked up and then released to come against Jerusalem (again), & on an on.....IN ONE DAY!!!!!

H @Marilyn C Interesting that in 1 Cor. 11.26 it is the church in view, as regard the aspect of the Lord's coming that relates to the end of its earthly pilgrimage. (Nothing there about the Lord wreaking judgment upon earth...)

 

[Marilyn C]

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

And where does it say that the Body of Christ is IN that city?

 

[Marilyn C]

This is plain nonsense. The eternal home of all the saints is in the heavenly city New Jerusalem.

Actually, the Body of Christ has a greater dominion, on Christ`s seat of power and authority in the third heaven - above all the other realms. (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Marilyn C]

Can you tell me who the supposed sheep nations are? I've never heard of them before.

They are those who looked after the brethren in the trib. (Matt. 25: 40) (Much like those who looked after the Jews in WW 2)

 

[Marilyn C]

Good morning, Marilyn.

Are you saying you reject Jesus and Paul's clear words in Jn 12 and 2Thess 1?
I am much more comfortable and confident in my interpretation of the New. It does happen quickly, suddenly, in a twinkling of an eye.

Hi jeff,

And a good morning to you. The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed until the Lord ascended and sent His Holy Spirit, and revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

Our bodies will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but not everything else.

 

[Marilyn C]

H @Marilyn C Interesting that in 1 Cor. 11.26 it is the church in view, as regard the aspect of the Lord's coming that relates to the end of its earthly pilgrimage. (Nothing there about the Lord wreaking judgment upon earth...)

Hi farouk,

God is referring to the Body of Christ in 1 Cor. 11: 26, while we see in Rev. 19: 21 the Lord is bringing vengeance upon the rebellious. Also prophecied in many place eg. Deut. 32: 43.

 

[farouk]

Hi farouk,

God is referring to the Body of Christ in 1 Cor. 11: 26, while we see in Rev. 19: 21 the Lord is bringing vengeance upon the rebellious. Also prophecied in many place eg. Deut. 32: 43.

Indeed so.....

 

[WPM]

And where does it say that the Body of Christ is IN that city?

Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

 

[WPM]

They are those who looked after the brethren in the trib. (Matt. 25: 40) (Much like those who looked after the Jews in WW 2)

But, name some of these nations. I have never heard of such a thing. What qualifies them to be a sheep nation?

 

[Enoch111]

Actually, the Body of Christ has a greater dominion, on Christ`s seat of power and authority in the third heaven - above all the other realms. (Rev. 3: 21)

The Body of Christ is also the Bride of Christ and the Building of Christ. And the eternal home of all the saints is in the New Jerusalem. Indeed all the saints who have passed on (both OT and NT) are all there presently in the New Jerusalem. And after the Resurrection/Rapture they will continue to have mansions and an eternal inheritance in the heavenly city (which will eventually replace the sun).

 

[jeffweeder]

You've said that WPM is a good teacher.

Yes. Strictly by the book with no room for assumption. Anointed in his ability to study a matter and communicate it honestly as he should.
Do people duck and dive and avoid addressing him scripturally?
Yes, they most certainly do MOST of the time

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes. Strictly by the book with no room for assumption. Anointed in his ability to study a matter and communicate it honestly as he should.
Do people duck and dive and avoid addressing him scripturally?
Yes, they most certainly do MOST of the time

Then I put you in the same category as him. Sorry!

 

[jeffweeder]

Hi jeff,

And a good morning to you. The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed until the Lord ascended and sent His Holy Spirit, and revealed it to the Apostle Paul.

Our bodies will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but not everything else.

You didnt address my questions.
We are all part of the Body of Christ through the same Gospel, body, and blood of Jesus. One sheep with one Shephard.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exactly! You believe in a sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium, as i allege. I rest my case!

You're a cop--not a lawyer. Your case is still staring you in the face! You have a lot of audacity thinking you can just say it isn't so, while being clearly unable to provide a single quote I asked for. And so, you misrepresent Premill beliefs, and do so without blushing. Shame on you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is brazen. The informed poster here knows the truth.

Is this what you mean by "loving"?

You don't know what it means to be "loving?" Do we really need to argue over its definition? This is your whole problem. You argue, but you don't edify. You embrace those who agree with you, but you have no love for those who don't. You deserve to be corrected and rebuked. And that's what I'm doing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

• To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
• One also has to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
• As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
• Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.

In other words, you completely rationalize away the simple meaning of the passage? Clearly, the OT Hope of Israel was to return to God's covenant in order to be blessed as a nation of God. And you don't understand that? Why am I not surprised?

 

[jeffweeder]

Then I put you in the same category as him. Sorry!

How do you feel about our Lord Jesus calling things out as he saw it....like you snake, and you have the devil for your father, you hypocrite, your evil and a liar etc?
WPM is not that colorful is he Randy?
Truth hurts sometimes I know and we need teachers who do not add water and compromise the truth.

 

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

There is NO mention of the Body of Christ there!