Unitarianism vs Trinitarianism
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“Titles provide one way of speaking about Jesus’ identity. Another way to speak of his being: Was Jesus God? Was he human? Was he both? The church followed this way as it struggled with doctrinal controversies, especially in the fourth and fifth centuries, culminating in the Nicene Creed and the definition of Chalcedon. That concern belonged neither to Jesus nor to the authors of the New Testament, not even to John.”
(R. David Kaylor, Jesus the Prophet: His Vision of the Kingdom on Earth, p. 206)
Bold is mine.
Dr. Kaylor (Presbyterian) is making a simple observation about church history. The first question I would ask is this: Why wasn’t it the concern of Jesus and the authors of the New Testament?
Wrangler
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Wrangler
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LOL The fact that you 'do not know' reveals the idolatry of your doctrine. The Apostles were monotheists who did not recognize any God but Jesus' God. It's not that you don't know. It's that you want to ignore the significance of the fact that those who walked with Jesus, and Jesus himself, did not teach the trinity.
Okay the next time I want my opinion I will ask you for it. You seem to know more about me than I do. How does that work?
Wrangler
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I
I don't know what "Can you say me it" means but you certainly are sure of yourself. It's something you share with JWs you are so sure you're the only one who's right. I haven't made any such claim it seems you can't have a conversation without personal attacks and insults. What exactly have I lied about?
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Some people can't have a conversation and disagree without personal attacks and false accusations. Excluding you.
Wrangler
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RT, I'm just having fun. There is a guy in Denmark who opens these threads with a cryptic title. The only words in the OP are "Can you say me it." I don' think English is his 1st language. Others seem to know what he means. I think it is funny. LOL
Regarding what you have lied about. I think most trinitarians lie to themselves about what has been said numerous times. The trinity is not in the Bible. The Apostles who walked with Jesus, and Jesus himself, did not teach the trinity. Can you say me it? (That is, can you admit this simple truth, yes or no? You've shown over and over again the answer is no. All manner of rationalizations emerge but not the simple admission of what is true.)
I once was a Unitarian-Universalist. Universalism appeals to me. Yet, I can readily admit that it is not in the Bible. See? I did it. Your turn. Can you say me it?
Wrangler
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Not to hijack this thread to become personal, but I'll take that as a compliment.
I am sure of myself - about a small number of things. I decided a long time ago to go deep about a few matters rather than wide about many. There is much I don't know or only have a very superficial understanding of. Then there are a few things that I have encyclopedic knowledge of, e.g., philosophy, epistemology & logic, ethics, religion, economics, mathematics, history, the scientific method, business, culture, the art of conversation, parenting.
On this last topic, I don't share this often but I have 17-grandchildren. I know 2 + 2 = 4, which necessarily means it equals no other number. So, there is that.
I find the deity of Christ is found in the Bible and there have been numerous threads about this and no one is any closer to coming to an agreement. Some people think Universalism is found in the Bible there is a thread on another forum claiming the KJV supports it. What do you get when you cross a JW with a Universalist? A person who goes door to door for no reason. BTW I don't claim to be an expert at anything except training dogs, law enforcement and Security.
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Wrangler
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On the contrary, I know how the subject is abused. Consider the meaning of Chancellor Palpatine telling Mace Windu, "I am the Senate?" The Executive representing the entirety of the representative legislative body cannot make literal sense. In fact, it does not make sense - unless one goes tyranny, out of bounds, and recognizing the abuse (of language and power) taking place.
It's akin to the abuse of saying a 3-member committee is made up entirely of one member. This is why 'Jesus is God' is wrong even within the constraints of the inherently contradictory doctrine of the trinity.
Wrangler
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You find this? It implies the topic is subjective. Is that what you think, the nature of God is in the eye of the beholder?
Hmmm. I never heard this.
However, you probably know I somewhat diss the KJV. The reason is 21st century Americans don't speak Middle English well and are prone to misinterpret they way thou spoketh backeth in the dayeth.
Sound like a joke.
Funny! :cool:
Zig Ziglar said anyone can become an expert in anything in 5 years. If you read one book a month for 5 years, you'll be at the upper echelon in that area.
I'm not into law enforcement, except in a philosophical or ethical way. I have a lot of respect for the thin, blue line. My stepson aspired to be in law enforcement. I think his sister and gf talked him out it.
By Zig's definition I'm an expert on the Bible, theology and personality typing as wellYou find this? It implies the topic is subjective. Is that what you think, the nature of God is in the eye of the beholder?
Hmmm. I never heard this.
However, you probably know I somewhat diss the KJV. The reason is 21st century Americans don't speak Middle English well and are prone to misinterpret they way thou spoketh backeth in the dayeth.
Sound like a joke.
Funny! :cool:
Zig Ziglar said anyone can become an expert in anything in 5 years. If you read one book a month for 5 years, you'll be at the upper echelon in that area.
I'm not into law enforcement, except in a philosophical or ethical way. I have a lot of respect for the thin, blue line. My stepson aspired to be in law enforcement. I think his sister and gf talked him out it.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Turning this conversation to a serious matter, regarding our love for God and expertise in the subject matter, how to you broach the subject to those in the dark?
For most of my life, I've relied on not throwing pearls before swine. In more recent years, I realize that is a bit of a crutch. I think I started a thread a few years ago differentiating evangelizing with proselytizing. Proselytizing, using coercion, I despise. My pastor recently preached that if you are going to be a witness, be a good one. Then, he introduced us to the legal term Adversarial Witness. This is one who undermines the team he is on.
It often seems to me the gulf is too great, a bridge too far. So, I've set my sights on 'seed planting' but feel unsatisfied by that most times.
I've always felt the best sermons are what you do not what you say. But I have to admit everyone I led to Christ was when I was teaching or preaching. I've planted seeds but never proselytize. I had a Pastor a long time ago that believed he was storing treasure in Heaven for every soul he led to Christ. He went about it like a salesman and wouldn't take no for an answer. People said the sinner's prayer with him just to get rid of him. I didn't want to be like him. I wish I was more effective at witnessing outside the Church but would rather be a seed planter than someone who comes across like a vacuum cleaner salesman.
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