This Makes More Sense To Me Now

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ScottA

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Sorry Scott, as usual I just can’t understand what you say. I literally never understand you. It’s not for lack of trying.
:) Yes, that is the problem here. All language has been [intentionally] confused by God--which means "twisted", and must be spiritually discerned. Nonetheless, I was quoting the scriptures that explain the truth of these things, and untwisting it.

Maybe this will be easier:
  • The first resurrection is the dead in Christ, which is Israel because they died before salvation had come.
  • The second resurrection is the living in Christ, who are those saved before they die, by being born again.
  • "First the Jew and also the Greek."
  • "First the natural, and afterward the spiritual."
 
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quietthinker

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I get what you think on it, my mind just doesn’t work that way. I think it used to…at least somewhat. And I see that others around me still work that way in their minds, but I can’t remember how to do that and it’s very foreign to me now. I see it all around me but I can’t do it any more. It seems quite mad to me now. It’s like this one time when a designer wanted me to paint huge flowers on a clients wall. She brought an old tea towel that had abstracted flowers on it and she wanted me to paint, as odd as it sounds, an abstraction of that abstraction. I couldn’t do it. I literally couldn’t even begin to do what was apparently in her mind. The only way to do an abstraction of a flower (or of ANYTHING) is to start WITH the actual thing. You have to look at the ACTUAL thing in order to abstract it. Oh sheesh, that won’t make sense to you…it’s like…I see everyone around me painting abstractions and…seeming to believe their abstractions ARE the real thing. And…I used to sometimes believe their abstractions were the real thing. They convinced me of it. They were so convinced that I also became convinced. And even with much evidence that I wasn’t seeing the real thing, I kept somehow believing their abstraction was the real thing and the real thing was the abstraction. I can’t do that any more. I wouldn’t even want to try. The only reason I used to was…to be accepted by them, included by them, as they would get very angry if I wouldn’t accept their abstraction as the real thing. And I don’t know if people are getting worse or if it’s always been so prevalent but I just couldn’t see it. But I DO see it now, and it has an element to it of…oh I give up. I can’t explain it and neither can I do it any more.
I love you sbg! :)
 
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Charlie24

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Disagree again. Rev. 11:15, is the last trumpet - #7, the rapture/1st resurrection.
Here's why. So many key events occur at this time:
* The Temple in heaven is open.
* The Mystery of God is revealed, basically who He is and what He looks like - when every eye sees Him.
*The dead are resurrected and judged.
* The kingdons of the world become our Lord's.
* We receive rewards!
* Lots of praise and worship
*Time of judgment
* Bowls of wrath are released (the series of events that I do happens chronologically)

I think of Revelation this way: It is not ALL chronogical and therefore shows us different vantage points, events that overlap and accumulate. God can't show us things happening simultaneously and so shows us one at a time. I look at it like a transparent three dimensional sphere filled with events, Trumpets and Bowls within the Seals. As you turn the sphere, you see different events line up and overlap. For instance, the 144k is seen in chapter 7 & 14, not different time periods, just different vantage points. I see a worldwide earthquake happening with the 6th Seal, Rev. 6:12, that looks like the same one in Rev. 16:18. I see the rapture/resurrection at the 7th Trumpet which is also the multitude that no one could number shown in Rev. 7:9 that just came out of the Great Tribulation.
I think this is why there is so many views and confusion, it can't be read in a linear time frame, one event happening after another.

The "last trump" of Revelation is not the "trump" that Paul is speaking of in 1 Thes. 4.

If you study the 2 trumps, the Shofar trump of the horn of an animal, and the Silver horns that God told Moses to make for Israel, you will see, (if you follow the uses of these horns in the OT) that there is a "year of Jubilee" horn that is used in the harvest/the gathering. The trump that Paul is speaking of.

The trump of Revelation 11 marks the midpoint of the Great Tribulation, when all hell breaks loose for Israel, it is the trump of war.
 

quietthinker

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The "last trump" of Revelation is not the "trump" that Paul is speaking of in 1 Thes. 4.

If you study the 2 trumps, the Shofar trump of the horn of an animal, and the Silver horns that God told Moses to make for Israel, you will see, (if you follow the uses of these horns in the OT) that there is a "year of Jubilee" horn that is used in the harvest/the gathering. The trump that Paul is speaking of.

The trump of Revelation 11 marks the midpoint of the Great Tribulation, when all hell breaks loose for Israel, it is the trump of war.
Should I consult mr trump or his children?
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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If you study the 2 trumps, the Shofar trump of the horn of an animal, and the Silver horns that God told Moses to make for Israel, you will see, (if you follow the uses of these horns in the OT) that there is a "year of Jubilee" horn that is used in the harvest/the gathering. The trump that Paul is speaking of.
I have studied and considered this as a possibility and realized one important aspect of this prophecy: the trumpets are not blown by humans, they are blown by angels. Spiritual angels don't require horns from physical animals or man-made on earth.
Could you imagine Angel #5 picks up his horn and and weird low volume screeching sound,ending with a flutter comes out. God and the other angels look at him and he says, Hey, I got this one on sale for $9.99 from a salesman who said it was the finest ... I even verified the business with Yelp. He said, "The horn is a little smaller than most but it packs a punch ... All of creation will hear it!" They all look at him and laughed. God says, You're fired! And now we must postpone the events until we can purchase another Shofar down there ... and most of them have been all destroyed!"
 

stunnedbygrace

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The "last trump" of Revelation is not the "trump" that Paul is speaking of in 1 Thes. 4.

If you study the 2 trumps, the Shofar trump of the horn of an animal, and the Silver horns that God told Moses to make for Israel, you will see, (if you follow the uses of these horns in the OT) that there is a "year of Jubilee" horn that is used in the harvest/the gathering. The trump that Paul is speaking of.

The trump of Revelation 11 marks the midpoint of the Great Tribulation, when all hell breaks loose for Israel, it is the trump of war.

A thread about that would be something I would read. :)
 

stunnedbygrace

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I have studied and considered this as a possibility and realized one important aspect of this prophecy: the trumpets are not blown by humans, they are blown by angels. Spiritual angels don't require horns from physical animals or man-made on earth.
Could you imagine Angel #5 picks up his horn and and weird low volume screeching sound,ending with a flutter comes out. God and the other angels look at him and he says, Hey, I got this one on sale for $9.99 from a salesman who said it was the finest ... I even verified the business with Yelp. He said, "The horn is a little smaller than most but it packs a punch ... All of creation will hear it!" They all look at him and laughed. God says, You're fired! And now we must postpone the events until we can purchase another Shofar down there ... and most of them have been all destroyed!"

I don’t think he meant to say Gods horns are animal horns, that the trumpets angels blow are earthly. Everything God had them make, from silver trumpets to the temple to the decorations and curtains were fashioned after things in heaven. They weren’t ACTUALLY those heavenly things.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I don’t think he meant to say Gods horns are animal horns, that the trumpets angels blow are earthly. Everything God had them make, from silver trumpets to the temple to the decorations and curtains were fashioned after things in heaven. They weren’t ACTUALLY those heavenly things.
I know, I threw in some humor in there.
He implied that these horns were shofars and obviously the last one would then be blown by a human. I know people interpret the last trumpet differently and either assign it to the Feast of Trumpets last blast on earth, likely in Jerusalem or as some mysterious separate "Trump of God" that is not in any series of calls at all. Why would it be the last if it wasn't part of a series?
What we do have in the Book of Revelation is a series of Trumpets blown by angels that release judgments on earth - what a coincidence. Do you think maybe scripture was pointing us in this direction? I see the correlation, don't you? And as I explained, many things happen at this 7th Trumpet blast. Just my two cents, I won't debate it further, take it or leave it and believe what you will.
 
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bbyrd009

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I get what you think on it, my mind just doesn’t work that way. I think it used to…at least somewhat. And I see that others around me still work that way in their minds, but I can’t remember how to do that and it’s very foreign to me now. I see it all around me but I can’t do it any more. It seems quite mad to me now. It’s like this one time when a designer wanted me to paint huge flowers on a clients wall. She brought an old tea towel that had abstracted flowers on it and she wanted me to paint, as odd as it sounds, an abstraction of that abstraction. I couldn’t do it. I literally couldn’t even begin to do what was apparently in her mind. The only way to do an abstraction of a flower (or of ANYTHING) is to start WITH the actual thing. You have to look at the ACTUAL thing in order to abstract it. Oh sheesh, that won’t make sense to you…it’s like…I see everyone around me painting abstractions and…seeming to believe their abstractions ARE the real thing. And…I used to sometimes believe their abstractions were the real thing. They convinced me of it. They were so convinced that I also became convinced. And even with much evidence that I wasn’t seeing the real thing, I kept somehow believing their abstraction was the real thing and the real thing was the abstraction. I can’t do that any more. I wouldn’t even want to try. The only reason I used to was…to be accepted by them, included by them, as they would get very angry if I wouldn’t accept their abstraction as the real thing. And I don’t know if people are getting worse or if it’s always been so prevalent but I just couldn’t see it. But I DO see it now, and it has an element to it of…oh I give up. I can’t explain it and neither can I do it any more.
fwiw i can say that the Bible starts making a lot more sense when it is applied to today rather than tomorrow :)
 

stunnedbygrace

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The detail highlights God's people being from 'everywhere', the twelve x twelve factor indicating completeness.
This deduction I've determined from the awareness that God's people are from every nation, tribe and people. There are not two groups ie, Jews and Gentiles. There is only one overarching, what shall I say? 'group' known as God's people. These are also called the Israel of God.
When Jacob wrestled with the angel his name was changed from 'deceiver' to 'him who wrestles with God and prevails'. This is the story of all God's people. Yes, they are prevailers aka Israel.

Sheesh, I really don’t understand this thing. Some are very bent on proving Jesus is not God. Some are very bent on nothing ever being literal. Some are very very bent on God being completely done with Israel.
I don’t get it…
 
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bbyrd009

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ya, wandering in the wilderness can be vexing, huh
what did you go out into the wilderness to see?
IF you suspect, as I do, that the gathering together comes before the tribulation and the wrath of God, you have to do something with the souls under the altar because it specifically says they were beheaded and came from out of the great tribulation, which would be them dying AFTER that first resurrection. If you suspect otherwise and think all must go through the tribulation and wrath, you don’t have that problem.
best of luck with that though, honestly

“beheading” surely has an allegorical meaning too, fwiw
that is really quite apt for this particular line of discussion imo…not sure how to illustrate the beheaded here w/o offending someone though :)
 

stunnedbygrace

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best of luck with that though, honestly

“beheading” surely has an allegorical meaning too, fwiw
that is really quite apt for this particular line of discussion imo…not sure how to illustrate the beheaded here w/o offending someone though :)
ya, wandering in the wilderness can be vexing, huh
what did you go out into the wilderness to see?

best of luck with that though, honestly

“beheading” surely has an allegorical meaning too, fwiw
that is really quite apt for this particular line of discussion imo…not sure how to illustrate the beheaded here w/o offending someone though :)

Maybe it does also have a spiritual meaning. If it does, I haven’t seen it. But I think it also happens literally. There have been some literal fulfillment’s on earth of prophecy you know.
 

bbyrd009

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A metaphor when it goes into great detail to explain how many from which exact tribes of Israel? Doesn’t make sense to me personally.
hiding wisdom from the wise is an interesting concept, huh?
gimme someone who that doesnt make sense to personally over someone who is sure any day though lol
 
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bbyrd009

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Maybe it does also have a spiritual meaning. If it does, I haven’t seen it
ya, i get you
“beheading” as an allegory is strange, and i forget how i got there tbh

But I think it also happens literally. There have been some literal fulfillment’s on earth of prophecy you know.
not disagreeing, but im sure you have noted how even “literal” can become subjective? But sure, imo you could expect to witness some literal manifestations of spiritual principles, too
 
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bbyrd009

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  • The first resurrection is the dead in Christ, which is Israel because they died before salvation had come.
  • The second resurrection is the living in Christ, who are those saved before they die, by being born again.
  • "First the Jew and also the Greek."
  • "First the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

note how the quest for personal immortality is…caught up in this pov
find a way for that to all be happening in today, rather than tomorrow
imo
 
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stunnedbygrace

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not disagreeing, but im sure you have noted how even “literal” can become subjective? But sure, imo you could expect to witness some literal manifestations of spiritual principles, too

It depends…”literal” being subjective doesn’t happen so much with prophecy that has already occurred. No one goes around saying, hmm…”none of my bones are broken” or “I count all my bones” must mean bones are “kumquats” and broken must mean “whoozits.”
Everyone accepts quite fine that it happened literally. Yes, Byrd, it might also have a spiritual meaning.:D