the real danger of Amillism

[Davy]

I had thought of this, and wondered if I need to respond to the matter? I never really explained because we all know Israel failed under the Covenant of Law. I do believe it was superseded by Christ's New Covenant.

So what I'm saying may or may not make sense to you, depending on your definitions and theological presuppositions. I believe the Covenant God gave to Israel in one sense was eternal, and in another sense was temporal. I believe the temporal Law was intended to present a progression leading to the eternal Covenant of Christ.

So when I reflect upon Israel still being under "covenant" with God, I'm not saying they are still under the Covenant of Law. I'm definitely not saying that. I've had Reform Theology all of my life, and I'm not remotely Catholic in viewing the need to participate in Christian institutions and traditions to supplement my Salvation.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that God's intention with his temporal covenant was intended to lead to the eternal covenant because the covenant He started with Israel was based on eternal promises. As I quoted to someone else, the promises were not based on work, but on faith in God.

And so, what was promised is good for anybody who believes. And that includes Abraham and his descendants, including the nation of Israel. If they began under the Covenant of Law, they could exercise faith and enter into the eternal promise that led to Christ's eternal covenant. Israel's covenant promises were and are eternal, in my opinion. Be happy to hear your thoughts on that?

More easily stated as... the Promise by Faith God first gave through Abraham was always first, before the giving of the law. Abraham believed God, and his belief was counted as righteousness. Thus the righteousness by Faith, and not of works, which is what The New Covenant is about.

Only certain ones of OT Israel believed like Abraham, and especially God's OT prophets waited for how Christ's Salvation would manifest (1 Peter 1:7-12). So did they not know? Yes, they knew, but only some of old Israel accepted the prophecy about Christ's coming.

What is little known though, is how one of the ways God uses to keep spiritual blindness upon many orthodox Jews is by having allowed Christ's enemies to creep into the positions of the priests and leaders of the people, including the scribes of Israel which were not even born of the seed of Israel. Those are blinded to the OT Scriptures about Lord Jesus, because even in Psalms 22 is written events that would happen at Christ's crucifixion 1,000 years later. Didn't the scribes and Pharisees at Jesus' 1st coming not know those Psalms 22 Scriptures? They include the event of the soldiers casting lots upon Jesus' clothing, so could they have missed that? Obviously, the faithful ones among the Jews didn't miss that, and did believe on Jesus at the cross.

 

[Truth7t7]

I thought Swaggart many years ago had some very spiritual, very pleasing worship music. I don't hate him because he was weak sexually. I think that's something most men have had to deal with. I never did like Swaggart's judgmentalism, though. He was hostile towards Christian Rockers like Larry Norman, and I don't think he had any business judging another person's ministry. Perhaps that's why God let him fall?

I'm a Pentecostal, brother. I'm not ashamed of it. What are you?

For what it's worth, I don't care for the dog barking Pentecostals, and I don't believe we all need to speak in tongues. That being said, I'm really high on living by the Spirit, if we can only put our carnality under our feet. Easier said than done. I think it helps to ask God for spiritual gifts. You never know what He might surprise you with?

I'm a Spirit filled believer and I don't follow a denomination

I believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today, and I have received the gift of speaking in other tongues long ago, its the same today it hasn't changed. The modern pentecostal movements today are a complete farce, driven by self gratification, and man's pride

One thing is a fact, God has no "National Covenant" with "Israel" as you falsely believe and teach, God has one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[GEN2REV]

The Scriptures do not seem to encourage us to place too much importance on speculating about future things. So we may or may not think a future literal Millennium is coming. We all believe the eternal Kingdom of Christ is coming. That unites us.

The dangers of Amillennial thinking are quite different from this. It isn't about speculating about future conditions in the Kingdom Age. Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored. Rejecting this is closing our hearts to backslidden Jews, which is not very "evangelical" for Christians to do.

Secondly, it is an underlying assumption in Premillennialism that though Christ defeated Satan at the cross, with respect to our Salvation, we must accept that our Salvation is not yet complete, and Satan continues to oppose us. That is, he is not yet fully bound.

To ignore this condemns us to the frustration of finding we are not able to cast Satan out of the world, and are not able to stop his opposition to our ministry. To not become frustrated and fall into despair, we have to know the conditions under which we successfully apply our ministry.

I think we need to be realistic and recognize that things are difficult in the present age. Though we have our Salvation secure, we need to remain on our guard until Satan is actually bound.

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes. But the important thing is to recognize where we are today, so that we are able to fulfill our ministries. Let's be united about that?

The Kingdom is right now.

Jesus hands it over to the Father on the last day when He returns. At that time, all power and authority that is NOT God will have been vanquished as you see in this verse.

1 Corinthians 15:24

There is no time or place for a Millennial reign. When Jesus returns, the earth is destroyed and the Kingdom is delivered from this world.

There's just simply no place for Pre-Mil in Scripture.

If there were, I'd happily embrace it.

 

[GEN2REV]

There you go again with false claims of personal attacks, Randy is trying to silence the opposition who is exposing his Zionist teachings that don't exist in scripture, it sounds just like liberal democrats screaming "Racist" at conservatives that disagree with them

This is the same tactic they all use.

It's either Ad Hominem attacks or accusations of teaching doctrine that's not even being discussed at the moment.

It's all sleight of hand as the magicians use smoke and mirrors to try to escape from the Light of Truth exposing their lies.

 

[Marty fox]

I had thought of this, and wondered if I need to respond to the matter? I never really explained because we all know Israel failed under the Covenant of Law. I do believe it was superseded by Christ's New Covenant.

So what I'm saying may or may not make sense to you, depending on your definitions and theological presuppositions. I believe the Covenant God gave to Israel in one sense was eternal, and in another sense was temporal. I believe the temporal Law was intended to present a progression leading to the eternal Covenant of Christ.

So when I reflect upon Israel still being under "covenant" with God, I'm not saying they are still under the Covenant of Law. I'm definitely not saying that. I've had Reform Theology all of my life, and I'm not remotely Catholic in viewing the need to participate in Christian institutions and traditions to supplement my Salvation.

So what am I saying? I'm saying that God's intention with his temporal covenant was intended to lead to the eternal covenant because the covenant He started with Israel was based on eternal promises. As I quoted to someone else, the promises were not based on work, but on faith in God.

And so, what was promised is good for anybody who believes. And that includes Abraham and his descendants, including the nation of Israel. If they began under the Covenant of Law, they could exercise faith and enter into the eternal promise that led to Christ's eternal covenant. Israel's covenant promises were and are eternal, in my opinion. Be happy to hear your thoughts on that?

Covenants are based on two entities and some were conditional but there has never been a person who has ever lived that could of lived up to Gods conditions that’s why we have Jesus and the new covenant.

We are saved by grace through faith not works that’s it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Covenants are based on two entities and some were conditional but there has never been a person who has ever lived that could of lived up to Gods conditions that’s why we have Jesus and the new covenant.

We are saved by grace through faith not works that’s it.

I can completely sign off on that. I do believe that all of God's covenants with Man were predicated on our hope in the grace that has been revealed at the Cross. That includes the Covenant of Law, even though it was designed to show Israel their need for Christ. The record of sin that developed in the Garden of Eden was indefensible, and the Law showed that, up until the measures of the Law resulted in a final measure revealed in Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Kingdom is right now.

The Scriptures beg to differ with you. Jesus warned about those who declared themselves to be Messiahs falsely. Paul warned about those who had said the Kingdom had already arrived. The book of Revelation indicates the kingdoms of the world only become the Kingdom of God and of Christ at the 7th Trumpet.

When Jesus was here the 1st time, he preached a Gospel of a "near" Kingdom--not a *here* Kingdom. You are teaching a Kingdom of heaven that is already with us, even though Jesus has not yet come back a 2nd time. The heavenly Kingdom of course exists in heaven, and God presently reigns over the earth. But Christ's Kingdom is not here yet--no.

The impact of the heavenly Kingdom on the earth presently concerns the Christian witness and ministry, but does not preclude Satanic opposition and persecution. The world's rulers run amok with Satanic authority, and the corrupt world loves it. This is not the Kingdom of heaven ruling on earth--no.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm a Spirit filled believer and I don't follow a denomination

I believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today, and I have received the gift of speaking in other tongues long ago, its the same today it hasn't changed. The modern pentecostal movements today are a complete farce, driven by self gratification, and man's pride

One thing is a fact, God has no "National Covenant" with "Israel" as you falsely believe and teach, God has one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

Jesus Is The Lord

I'm sympathetic to your concerns. I also am a Charismatic, and have been in Pentecostal Churches for many years. But I don't agree with their theology, and reject a lot that is going on in the name of "Pentecostal Revival." That being said, I've seen some really powerful things being done, despite the obvious ignorance. I continue to pray for those who have chosen the ways of the Spirit over the ways of the sinful flesh.

You have not proven to me you have overcome the sinful flesh in your own life because of your insulting manner. That being said, knowing who you are and claim to be, my prayers are with you as well as my fellowship, if you want it? Perhaps your brazen denunciations is just your style, and not intended to be insulting? I don't know--I could be wrong?

 

[Truth7t7]

You have not proven to me you have overcome the sinful flesh in your own life because of your insulting manner. That being said, knowing who you are and claim to be, my prayers are with you as well as my fellowship, if you want it? Perhaps your brazen denunciations is just your style, and not intended to be insulting? I don't know--I could be wrong?

More false claims to silence your opposition, I'm not here to prove anything to you Randy, your false claims are just like liberal Democrats shouting "Racist" at conservatives that disagree with them

One thing is a fact, God has no "National Covenant" with "Israel" as you falsely believe and teach, God has one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

More easily stated as... the Promise by Faith God first gave through Abraham was always first, before the giving of the law. Abraham believed God, and his belief was counted as righteousness. Thus the righteousness by Faith, and not of works, which is what The New Covenant is about.

Only certain ones of OT Israel believed like Abraham, and especially God's OT prophets waited for how Christ's Salvation would manifest (1 Peter 1:7-12). So did they not know? Yes, they knew, but only some of old Israel accepted the prophecy about Christ's coming.

What is little known though, is how one of the ways God uses to keep spiritual blindness upon many orthodox Jews is by having allowed Christ's enemies to creep into the positions of the priests and leaders of the people, including the scribes of Israel which were not even born of the seed of Israel. Those are blinded to the OT Scriptures about Lord Jesus, because even in Psalms 22 is written events that would happen at Christ's crucifixion 1,000 years later. Didn't the scribes and Pharisees at Jesus' 1st coming not know those Psalms 22 Scriptures? They include the event of the soldiers casting lots upon Jesus' clothing, so could they have missed that? Obviously, the faithful ones among the Jews didn't miss that, and did believe on Jesus at the cross.

Totally agree! Well said!

I think there are "sheep" and "goats." The goats came to rule over the sheep, and many of the people had goats that multiplied with the license and freedoms they were given by weak believers and corrupt people.

Once a nation is overtaken by bad leadership, the good people among them are suppressed and it seems national restoration is impossible. That is why national salvation for Israel will, I believe, take place through judgment, to break the bad leadership and the corruption among the people.

A righteous majority needs to be reinstituted. And that can only take place through the removal of the bad ones.

 

[Randy Kluth]

More false claims to silence your opposition, I'm not here to prove anything to you Randy

One thing is a fact, God has no "National Covenant" with "Israel" as you falsely believe and teach, God has one covenant with man, the shed blood upon Calvary "Period"

Jesus Is The Lord

Your choice.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture clearly teaches the "Remnant Jew" will be saved and added to the Church on earth, they are no longer "Ethnic Israel" they become saved "Church" where there isn't Jew or Greek, hope that helps :)

I don't see that anywhere in the Scriptures. The early disciples of Jesus among the Jews remained "Jews." They did not join Christian communities elsewhere unless they were called to minister in other countries.

The places where Christian Salvation is said to be independent of race or nationality is true, and does not require there cease to be nations and ethnicities. The *basis of Salvation* is Christ, and not a person's ethnicity or nationality.

But both nationality and ethnicity were made important in this age because *God made it that way!* He wanted that! He wants to save *your family*--not just the families of other people!

So God gave people families to hope for and pray for--not just to ignore the fact they are your family and pray, indiscriminately, about everybody. I hear this all the time, but find it is very much misunderstood.

Ethnicity and nationality are very important, particularly to those who have their own ethnicity and nationality. But Salvation itself is indiscriminate in this regard, and is available to all, whatever their background.

 

[Truth7t7]

Once a nation is overtaken by bad leadership, the good people among them are suppressed and it seems national restoration is impossible. That is why national salvation for Israel will, I believe, take place through judgment, to break the bad leadership and the corruption among the people.

A righteous majority needs to be reinstituted. And that can only take place through the removal of the bad ones.

No such thing as "National Salvation For Israel" as you continue to claim, this is found no place in scripture, your Zionism is on full display

 

[Truth7t7]

But both nationality and ethnicity were made important in this age because *God made it that way!* He wanted that!

Ethnicity and nationality are very important, particularly to those who have their own ethnicity and nationality.

Your claims are "False" God is color blind concerning "The Church"!

Your continued claims of "National Salvation For Israel" is "Laughable" found no place in scripture

Galatians 3:26-28KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12KJV
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:12KJV
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Scriptures do not seem to encourage us to place too much importance on speculating about future things. So we may or may not think a future literal Millennium is coming. We all believe the eternal Kingdom of Christ is coming. That unites us.

The dangers of Amillennial thinking are quite different from this. It isn't about speculating about future conditions in the Kingdom Age. Rather, it's about ignoring the underlying beliefs of Premillennialism, which requires acceptance of a literal Millennial Age in which the nation Israel is restored. Rejecting this is closing our hearts to backslidden Jews, which is not very "evangelical" for Christians to do.

Secondly, it is an underlying assumption in Premillennialism that though Christ defeated Satan at the cross, with respect to our Salvation, we must accept that our Salvation is not yet complete, and Satan continues to oppose us. That is, he is not yet fully bound.

To ignore this condemns us to the frustration of finding we are not able to cast Satan out of the world, and are not able to stop his opposition to our ministry. To not become frustrated and fall into despair, we have to know the conditions under which we successfully apply our ministry.

I think we need to be realistic and recognize that things are difficult in the present age. Though we have our Salvation secure, we need to remain on our guard until Satan is actually bound.

We may speculate about whether mortal humanity continues to live on the planet after Christ comes. But the important thing is to recognize where we are today, so that we are able to fulfill our ministries. Let's be united about that?

Hi Randy,

We are not to speculate about anything. God`s word lays out His wonderful eternal purposes through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Now one of His great titles is the Son of Man.

Do you know what that means?

Do you understand how it relates to the kinsman-redeemer?

A kinsman-redeemer had 4 responsibilities. Knowing those reveals what the Lord has done, is doing and will do. It ties all the details together in a seamless unfolding of God`s great plans and purposes through His Son.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Your claims are "False" God is color blind concerning "The Church"!

Your continued claims of "National Salvation For Israel" is "Laughable" found no place in scripture

Galatians 3:26-28KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12KJV
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:12KJV
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So why was Jesus born a Jew and not a Gentile?

 

[Truth7t7]

So why was Jesus born a Jew and not a Gentile?

Has absolutely nothing to do with the Church and Ethnicity, where there is neither Jew nor Greek

 

[Marilyn C]

Has absolutely nothing to do with the Church and Ethnicity, where there is neither Jew nor Greek

But why was the Lord born a Jew?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

We are not to speculate about anything. God`s word lays out His wonderful eternal purposes through His Son, Jesus Christ.

You're making a judgment call here that I don't agree with. Much in life does not drop down from heaven, packaged, pre-read, and ready for application. Much in life is a process that requires taking the initiative, being responsible, and maintaining self-discipline. God is interested in children--not robots. Speculation is adventurous, which is precisely who God is. He made us, didn't he? ;)

Now one of His great titles is the Son of Man.
Do you know what that means?
Do you understand how it relates to the kinsman-redeemer?
A kinsman-redeemer had 4 responsibilities. Knowing those reveals what the Lord has done, is doing and will do. It ties all the details together in a seamless unfolding of God`s great plans and purposes through His Son.
Marilyn.

By all means, Marilyn, tell me more. I may have missed the full significance of "Son of Man." I see that title in all the usual ways, as "being human," as opposed to strictly divine, and being the Messiah from heaven in the form of Man, as in Dan 7.

I don't have a problem understanding that he came down from heaven to be our human redeemer, if that's what you mean?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claims are "False" God is color blind concerning "The Church"!

Therein lies our disagreement, brother. You think God is "color blind," and I think He has better than 20 20 eyesight, being God. He created the great diversity on our planet, including the different races and nations. I hope you can handle better the fact we disagree on this?