Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[Randy Kluth]

Is it possible for you to specifically address what I said in my post rather than only giving your current understanding?

I did in post #2. That was very, very specific.
Your question was about whether the prophecy of Israel's restoration, made in Rom 11, was about an OT prophecy or a NT prophecy? It obviously was an OT prophecy that Paul was supporting and teaching.

But your statement was predicated on what I think was a falsity, namely that this was strictly about spiritual salvation. It wasn't. The prophecy is based on the principle contained in the blessings and cursings of the Law, in which the nation would be blessed by a predominance of faithfulness on the part of Israel.

It never had to do with a supposed necessity that every individual get saved and comply. The majority were supposed to deal with recalcitrant and rebellious individuals so that the nation would continue to be dominated by righteous practices.

And so, I had to add to your questions an explanation showing that this prophecy was properly focused on Israel's political deliverance, which would take place simultaneously with the nation's repentance. This does not require 100% compliance by all individuals, nor 100% spiritual regeneration.

Rather, it requires the nation expressing a collective will that determines to keep rebellious individuals from threatening the religious and social order. Then spiritual and material blessings upon the nation are assured, which I believe will be true of every Christian nation in the age to come.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, one discussion that I have had from time to time with some others who are much more enlightened in the Scripture than myself, is that Calvin was not far from the truth on predestination!

That predestination was not as he supposed, but it was for His chosen! Of course this is an in depth conversation that some are not prepared for, they will automatically see fault, but it is very interesting.

I'm happy to have that conversation with good friends and suspicious hostiles, as well. I don't go as far as Calvin, but my own unique position is similar to his. Where I disagree is with the idea that God has predestined some for wrath. I think God anticipated it, but did not desire it. It would be like saying I choose only good fruit trees in my garden, and plan for my laborers to plant them. But I also give my laborers freedom to rebel, and to plant bad toxic trees in the garden, as well.

Do I then plan for the poisonous trees? Well, indirectly I suppose so. But as far as intention goes, my desire was not to have any toxic trees. I just gave freedom for people to go *against my will.*

This is the way God works with election. He has a set number of people He has planned for, and only wants saved people who spend eternity with Him. But He also gave freedom for Man to go his own way, to go against the plan of God.

The result are that some children, for whatever reason, choose not to comply with God's wishes, to live in fellowship and in obedience to God forever. The result is that God indirectly allowed for damned people, but never wished for that to happen.

 

[jeffweeder]

It never had to do with a supposed necessity that every individual get saved and comply. The majority were supposed to deal with recalcitrant and rebellious individuals so that the nation would continue to be dominated by righteous practices.

And so, I had to add to your questions an explanation showing that this prophecy was properly focused on Israel's political deliverance, which would take place simultaneously with the nation's repentance. This does not require 100% compliance by all individuals, nor 100% spiritual regeneration.

Rather, it requires the nation expressing a collective will that determines to keep rebellious individuals from threatening the religious and social order. Then spiritual and material blessings upon the nation are assured, which I believe will be true of every Christian nation in the age to come.

What a crock of manure Randy. What on earth are you saying. God wants a personal relationship with every individual son or daughter.
None of his children are lost in a political collective.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What a crock of manure Randy. What on earth are you saying. God wants a personal relationship with every individual son or daughter.
None of his children are lost in a political collective.

Boy, that was a bit rude for you, Jeff! In case you missed it, this was the exact scenario in the blessings and curses of the Law, as I mentioned. How is God's word a "crock of manure," Jeff?

Deut 28.1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God: ...7 The Lord will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven...
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: ...25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth... 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you... 64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart...

Surely you understand that God would've loved every single individual in Israel to walk in fellowship and in holiness with Himself? And you surely understand that the Law was set up to deal with the fact not every individual would comply with the Law?

And so, God's plan was for Israel to be a godly nation generally, with the leadership and the people dealing with malcontents and rebels, removing them when needed and forgiving those who repent and restoring them. Never did God expect every person in the nation to be faithful or to succeed in a covenant relationship with Himself.

The goal was to direct the nation in a path that kept the people generally in a state of blessing, leaving individual salvation up to individuals. But it was important, to God, to have a godly nation in order to produce many individuals who understood the life of faith and were able to live it in a society that did not oppose it.

God knew from the start that the nation Israel would not always succeed in being a godly nation. And so, He predicted through His prophets that the nation would ultimately succumb to the enticements of sin around them, due to human weakness. And He therefore knew He would defeat the nation and send them into exile, to be restored at some later time.

The salvation of Israel was therefore always presented as a political deliverance from their enemies, once they had come to terms with their sin and rebellion, and had returned to God in repentance. The covenant allowed for repentance. And even a shattering of the covenant God said He would forgive at the proper time. This is what the "salvation of all Israel" meant for Paul, since he was thoroughly knowledgeable about these things, as I also am.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm happy to have that conversation with good friends and suspicious hostiles, as well. I don't go as far as Calvin, but my own unique position is similar to his. Where I disagree is with the idea that God has predestined some for wrath. I think God anticipated it, but did not desire it. It would be like saying I choose only good fruit trees in my garden, and plan for my laborers to plant them. But I also give my laborers freedom to rebel, and to plan bad toxic trees in the garden, as well.

Do I then plan for the poisonous trees? Well, indirectly I suppose so. But as far as intention goes, my desire was not to have any toxic trees. I just gave freedom for people to go *against my will.*

This is the way God works with election. He has a set number of people He has planned for, and only wants saved people who spend eternity with Him. But He also gave freedom for Man to go his own way, to go against the plan of God.

The result are that some children, for whatever reason, choose not to comply with God's wishes, to live in fellowship and in obedience to God forever. The result is that God indirectly allowed for damned people, but never wished for that to happen.

God's words are very clear, Randy's are silent

Romans 9:20-23KJV
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Truth7t7]

Boy, that was a bit rude for you, Jeff! In case you missed it, this was the exact scenario in the blessings and curses of the Law, as I mentioned. How is God's word a "crock of manure," Jeff?

Deut 28.1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God: ...7 The Lord will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven...
15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: ...25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth... 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you... 64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart...

Surely you understand that God would've loved every single individual in Israel to walk in fellowship and in holiness with Himself? And you surely understand that the Law was set up to deal with the fact not every individual would comply with the Law?

And so, God's plan was for Israel to be a godly nation generally, with the leadership and the people dealing with malcontents and rebels, removing them when needed and forgiving those who repent and restoring them. Never did God expect every person in the nation to be faithful or to succeed in a covenant relationship with Himself.

The goal was to direct the nation in a path that kept the people generally in a state of blessing, leaving individual salvation up to individuals. But it was important, to God, to have a godly nation in order to produce many individuals who understood the life of faith and were able to live it in a society that did not oppose it.

God knew from the start that the nation Israel would not always succeed in being a godly nation. And so, He predicted through His prophets that the nation would ultimately succumb to the enticements of sin around them, due to human weakness. And He therefore knew He would defeat the nation and send them into exile, to be restored at some later time.

The salvation of Israel was therefore always presented as a political deliverance from their enemies, once they had come to terms with their sin and rebellion, and had returned to God in repentance. The covenant allowed for repentance. And even a shattering of the covenant God said He would forgive at the proper time. This is what the "salvation of all Israel" meant for Paul, since he was thoroughly knowledgeable about these things, as I also am.

I believe Jeff was stating your claims of a future "Political Theocracy" is a crock, and I join Jeff's opinion

 

[Randy Kluth]

God's words are very clear, Randy's are silent

Romans 9:20-23KJV
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

What's your point? This passage said exactly what I was saying, that God planned men to be good fruit, or "vessels of mercy." The vessels of wrath were the byproduct of autonomous human will, since it refuses to comply with God's word and will.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I believe Jeff was stating your claims of a future "Political Theocracy" is a crock, and I join Jeff's opinion

It is a bit anachronistic for Jeff to be so rude, but you don't at all surprise me that you wish to join in. When aren't you rude?

You're a carnal Christian who hasn't yet learned to curb his human emotions. When you don't get your way, or when others disagree with you, you find it pleasurable to your sinful flesh to indulge your "battle axe."

May I remind you that we are both Christians, and not enemies? Disagreement is bound to happen, and we may get upset or feel insulted. But in the end, we need to mend fences and try hard to be edifying.

 

[Truth7t7]

What's your point? This passage said exactly what I was saying, that God planned men to be good fruit, or "vessels of mercy." The vessels of wrath were the byproduct of autonomous human will, since it refuses to comply with God's word and will.

Your claim is "False" the vessel of dishonor was made by God in foreknowledge, not a byproduct of human will as you falsely claim

Romans 9:21KJV
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[Truth7t7]

It is a bit anachronistic for Jeff to be so rude, but you don't at all surprise me that you wish to join in. When aren't you rude?

You're a carnal Christian who hasn't yet learned to curb his human emotions. When you don't get your way, or when others disagree with you, you find it pleasurable to your sinful flesh to indulge your "battle axe."

May I remind you that we are both Christians, and not enemies? Disagreement is bound to happen, and we may get upset or feel insulted. But in the end, we need to mend fences and try hard to be edifying.

Randy I respond to your teachings that aren't found in scripture, it's my opinion that it's Randy that's upset when his belief is exposed and challenged, it's that simple

Just one example, You claim the fire seen at the Lord's return will be "Localized" to various places on earth, now that's a "Crock Of Malarkey""!

Randy is full of "False Claims" in personal attacks, in trying to silence his opposition, just like a liberal Democrat shouting "Racist" against a conservative that disagrees

P.S it's a "Sword" and Not A "Battle Axe", Smiles!

Hebrews 4:12KJV
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 6:10-18KJV
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[Timtofly]

God's words are very clear, Randy's are silent

Romans 9:20-23KJV
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Amil teaches total and climactic destruction. That is their MO. No grace or mercy whatsoever.

Amil keep making the excuse we are in the here and now, but their Second Coming is a bust, because they do not allow God any time to work at the Second Coming.

Some even think certain humans have to get it all figured out, so the Second Coming can even happen, because it is humans who determine the outcome, not God.

When clearly life on earth happens when Jesus and the angels carry out the final harvest on earth. Jesus is here as King. Being here as King means the Second Coming happened and Jesus is choosing the sheep. The sheep did not choose prior to the Second Coming. The sheep were not even prepared for the Second Coming.

Those already prepared were already glorified and settled in Paradise, when the sheep are chosen. The sheep are direct elect, not part of those having faith in a promise. That is when Israel is restored. After the Second Coming and the church has been removed. The church is not the restoration of Israel.

Jesus as King and the Prince of Peace is how Israel is restored. Israel certainly does not restore herself prior to the Second Coming. Some of Israel will be judged as goats and eternally condemned. The sheep will be the restored remnant. You don't even allow them a restored kingdom. You take that away from them. It is not a 20 second kingdom. It is a 1,000 year kingdom.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claim is "False" the vessel of dishonor was made by God in foreknowledge, not a byproduct of human will as you falsely claim

Romans 9:21KJV
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So you believe God predestined people to Hell?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just one example, You claim the fire seen at the Lord's return will be "Localized" to various places on earth.

Yes, even world wars, which are earth-wide, inflict "local" damage all over the earth. Apparently you think the entire globe will explode? That isn't how the Bible expresses world-wide judgment.

You say this isn't biblical, but it is *precisely* what the Scriptures say:

Rev 16.19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

The "great city" and "the cities of the nations" are "local areas" where judgment falls. Even though this judgment is *earth-wide,* the specific judgments are *local.* You are clearly wrong in thinking the earth will explode, since the Scriptures indicate the "earth is forever." I gave you several Scriptures on this, and you've been utterly unable to answer them without contradiction.

 

[WPM]

Amil teaches total and climactic destruction. That is their MO. No grace or mercy whatsoever.

Amil keep making the excuse we are in the here and now, but their Second Coming is a bust, because they do not allow God any time to work at the Second Coming.

Are you serious? I never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

So, did God have "no grace or mercy whatsoever" in Noah's day?
Did God have "no grace or mercy whatsoever" in Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[Timtofly]

Are you serious? I never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

So, did God have "no grace or mercy whatsoever" in Noah's day?
Did God have "no grace or mercy whatsoever" in Sodom and Gomorrah?

All who were judged ended up dead. You can call that grace and mercy.

 

[jeffweeder]

Boy, that was a bit rude for you, Jeff!

Tame compared to the character assassination I've been witnessing on the forums lately.

 

[Truth7t7]

So you believe God predestined people to Hell?

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, even world wars, which are earth-wide, inflict "local" damage all over the earth. Apparently you think the entire globe will explode? That isn't how the Bible expresses world-wide judgment.

You say this isn't biblical, but it is *precisely* what the Scriptures say:

Rev 16.19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.

The "great city" and "the cities of the nations" are "local areas" where judgment falls. Even though this judgment is *earth-wide,* the specific judgments are *local.* You are clearly wrong in thinking the earth will explode, since the Scriptures indicate the "earth is forever." I gave you several Scriptures on this, and you've been utterly unable to answer them without contradiction.

Your claims are false, to maintain your teaching of a millennial kingdom on earth,, its that simple "BIAS" to maintain your Kingdom

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire in Judgement at his return

2 Peter 3:10-11KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Tame compared to the character assassination I've been witnessing on the forums lately.

Yea, I've had to settle myself down lately. There are few among us who actually enjoy provocations. I'm not one of them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God has foreknowledge and is Omniscient, he's the Alpha/Omega, it's that simple

You don't resolve your contradictions. You don't answer questions. You just offer a *simplistic* answer, one that resolves nothing.

The question was: how do you resolve your notion of the *annihilation of the earth* when the Scriptures say the *earth is forever?" The next question was: how do you resolve the problem of Calvin's double predestination? Do you believe God predetermined people to burn in Hell?

If you can't answer these questions specifically, I'll understand. These kinds of questions have been argued over for centuries! ;)