John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Rich R]

Well, I didn't take it out of context, but disregarded your "context" and applied the right context to it. And it was very purposeful. :)


See, you're doing something quite different; making something somebody said into the opposite of what it was. Which is quite dishonest... :)

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

Well, I didn't take it out of context, but disregarded your "context" and applied the right context to it. And it was very purposeful.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Don't take me too seriously. I know your position and I respect your steadfastness to it. I don't agree with it, but I don't discount your worthiness to God. About that I'm quite serious! :)

 

[Wrangler]

As is common in English translations, the Greek term 'logos' in John 1 is ...

... not God.

Logos is not God. The word for God is not logos but theos.

Retreating into a foreign language does not help the trinitarian cause one little bit. God is theos. By definition, logos is not theos. Logos is the root word for logic, meaning reasoning. A mind reasons. Theos reasons. His logos was put into the mouth of the man Jesus. So simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

 

[JunChosen]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

True the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. So are the words "Omnipresent" and "Omniscient" are not in the Bible, but you can't deny the serious Bible student, that is that God is everywhere present and all-knowing!

To God Be The Glory

 

[tigger 2]

Elohim

That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

“The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ucted] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:

“The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."

More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:

“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.

“Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew

"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:

“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:

“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

The famous trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’s Analytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 1,

“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”

Exodus 7:1 (KJV and Hebrew text) shows God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!


And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:

“Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:

“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

“ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:

“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among [real] scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

 

[Peterlag]

True the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. So are the words "Omnipresent" and "Omniscient" are not in the Bible, but you can't deny the serious Bible student, that is that God is everywhere present and all-knowing!

To God Be The Glory

We do indeed have significant differences among various traditions spread out all over the planet. However, the one fundamental shared concept seems to be quite similar, that the world is a spiritual battle zone, which is why it looks that way. From Indonesia to the Hottentots of South Africa, the Nahuatl of Mexico, the Apaches, Chiricahua, and Papagoes of the American Southwest, along with Northeatern Nigeria, and the Vedic Poets of early Hinduism just to name a few. And everywhere in between we find people all over the globe in every culture speaking and writing about some type of spiritual battle going on.

Why does it have to be God in control of everything when the whole world from every culture since the beginning of man has spoken about gods, angels, demons, and Satan? Even the Buddha speak about the realm of angry spirits. This the invisible society of spirits do seem to be behind much that occurs in the physical world. We are often told that people suffer because they deserve it. And we seem to be able to go into great explanations expressing a confidence in God's absolute sovereignty, defined here as control, that seems to provide many believers with a great deal of security. We teach in our churches that everything is under God's control, and thereby everything is proceeding as divinely planned, and that somehow it all fits together.

So if there is no verse in the Scriptures stating God is “omniscient” meaning He knows the past, the present, and the future? Then why do so many Christians believe God is omniscient? The answer is: Ancient Greek Mythology and Philosophy.

 

[Peterlag]

Agreed.


Which it does, as John is very clear about in John 1:14-18:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about Him, and cried out, 'This was He of Whom I said, "He who comes after me ranks before me, because He was before me."') For from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, Who is at the Father’s side, He has made him known."​

There is no capitalization in the Greek of the New Testament. But it is used in quite different contexts throughout the New Testament. In John's case, the context is that it refers to a person, and it is properly capitalized in English, as it is a proper noun. Trying to rationalize it away is to no avail.

Jesus reiterates throughout John's gospel what John has written in his opening prologue:

JOHN:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John; John 1:1-4)

JESUS:
"I am the bread of life..." (John 6:35)
"The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life..." (John 6:63)
"I am the light of the world..." (John 8:12)
"I am the door of the sheep..." (John 10:7)
"I am the good shepherd..." (John 10:11)
"I and the Father are one..." (John 10:30)
"I am the resurrection and the life..." (John 11:25-26)
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life." (John 14:6)​

Ah yes, "theologians." Yes. LOL! Jesus very clearly presents God as eternally existing in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in John 14.


See, this is not true at all. It's a mystery in the sense that it cannot be fully understood, as in completely grasped and understanding every aspect of it, but it can certainly be understood. And understood by all, as even denying it denotes a level of understanding.

And I will say that those who deny the deity of Christ Jesus certainly play a part not to be minimized at all. :)

Grace and peace to you.

We can go through your verses one at a time that you think are saying Jesus is God. Here's John 10:30...

John 10:30. Let's look at that...

There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

 

[Peterlag]

Most or ALL of them, because?:

Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and
The Word Was God.
Joh 1:2 The Same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were Made By Him; and without Him was not any thing
made that was made.
+
Joh 1:14 And The Word Was Made Flesh [1Ti 3:16], and dwelt among
us, (and we beheld His Glory, The Glory as of The Only Begotten of the Father,)
full of Grace and Truth."

Surely you are not asking us to believe man instead of

The Written Word Of God In The Scriptures, ​

or, are you???

GRACE And Peace...
+
500 Scriptures!

When did my way of reading the Scriptures become to believe man and your way to read the Scriptures become the written Word of God?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Human nature is we want answers. When we don't have an answer, we make up myths. Atheists claim this is also the basis of all religions. However, I certainly agree this applies to trinitarians. They feel obligated to go beyond what the actual word of God explicitly teaches because making myths up is more satisfying than saying "we don't know. And if you think about it, that is the mind of a scientist, to be satisfied with knowing the line between knowledge and ignorance.

Good points here.....religion set the pattern for the relatively new substitute “religion” of the world... “science”. It seems to transcend all faiths and offers what religion cannot. Answers that take away responsibility for our actions from anyone but ourselves.
It capitalises on man’s innate need to *know*...to gain ever more knowledge.
We are told that God is redundant and therefore we have no one to answer to. We are just animals and can be excused for acting like them.

But the line is not just between “ignorance and knowledge” where God’s word is concerned.....it’s between “ignorance and assumption”.
When assumptions are presented as facts, (as they are in evolutionary science) and it is done by those who have letters after their name, like celebrities, they must be believed. Atheistic scientists have so many people believing that God is redundant and his rules are too restrictive. We are just animals after all, so that excuses us when we act like them.
How sad that the truth can be so easily lost and buried under assumptions that are dead wrong...just because of who said it. All morality and decency disappears.....and here we are.

See, it’s not what you believe so much as who you believe and why you believe them.
We can use the experience of the first century Christians as our model because history is repeating right under everyone’s noses...but who is noticing?

John 13:34-35... “By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

Jesus said that ‘love would grow cold’ in these last days...and that is exactly what we are seeing...even among professed Christians. Where is the love? Christians are divided by politics and denomination and as past experience shows, they will even kill their own brothers in the faith if their governments go to war. (1 John 4:20-21) If Christ taught us to “love our enemies” (Matthew 5:43-44) how can we do that with weapons?

Jesus taught us that the only hope for mankind is God’s Kingdom....he taught us to pray for it to “come”....so we are not going to the kingdom because it is “coming” to us. That will mean that God’s “will is done on earth as it is in heaven”....(Matthew 6:9-10) So it hasn’t come yet because these are the “last days” before that happens.

Unless we know the truth, “the kingdom” will be a mystery, and how it comes and what it will accomplish will elude us. We are to preach to the world about the kingdom....but very few Christians even know what it is, so how can they preach about it and make disciples as Jesus said we must? (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

It is too easy to get sidetracked onto other issues, but who God is, and what his kingdom will accomplish, are the most important things that a Christian must know.

 

[Wrangler]

Of course we could just made a few edits to prove the trinity. Here's one:

I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words (plural) in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him. Deut 18:1
We'll just change it to:

I am will raise up myself. I will put my words in my mouth, and I will tell the people everything I command myself. Deut 18:1

Wow! Sometimes, I wish a trinitarian could give an honest response to such insight and implications.

About a month back, one wrote that the Sh’ma is actually strong evidence in support of the trinity. I asked what would be good evidence AGAINST the trinity.

No response. They cannot allow a valid rejection criteria on the table.

 

[JunChosen]

John 10:30. Let's look at that...

There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God."

That's exactly what Jesus is saying!!! Why is that so difficult to understand? BECAUSE Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father and it should suffice? Jesus' response and said to him,
9) "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11) Believe me I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 14:9-11

To God Be The Glory

 

[Peterlag]

That's exactly what Jesus is saying!!! Why is that so difficult to understand? BECAUSE Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father and it should suffice? Jesus' response and said to him,
9) "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11) Believe me I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. John 14:9-11

To God Be The Glory

1 John says stuff like the following...

"God dwelleth in us" "Hereby know we that we dwell in him" "and he in us" "because he hath given us of his Spirit" "he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God" "and God in him"

And believe me none of these verses make me God.

 

[Kermos]

You are amusing Kermos. I think every chat site needs a Kermos.....

You know there are 38 sayings or commandments of Jesus, and 3/4 of them are found in Matthew. Do you 'keep' or pay attention to all these Kermos. I do..... in spirit....a few are not to be taken literally and given only as a type of example

Well, your heart has been proven evil and unbelieving according to the revelation in the Bible.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] in post #632 in this thread).

You wickedly think there are impossible things for God, yet Jesus declares all things are possible with God (Matthew 19:26) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] in post #636 in this thread).

You publicly admit that you deny the consistent Christian Apostolic testimony such as the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) as well as the Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28) and Peter calling Jesus "the God" (2 Peter 1:1) and Matthew says Jesus is "God with us" (Matthew 1:23) and John calls Jesus "God" (John 1:1) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1392 in this ChristianityBoard thread), yet no Christian denies such strong Apostolic testimony.


APAK, @tigger 2, @XFire and @Wrangler (you latter 3 by your APAK post agreement likes) - no other scripture records a man making this awesome declaration to everlasting existence in prior time along with the words "ego eimi" (I AM) - Jesus alone makes such declaration as recorded by the Apostle John (John 8:58) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1438 in this ChristianityBoard thread), yet you wickedly ascribe the everlasting attribute to everyone who says "ego eimi" (I am) in the scriptures thus you have a multitude of gods, so your deception runs deep in your heart.

In a stroke of linguistic folly, you wickedly adulterate John 8:58 into "Truly, truly, I say to you, I simply rank higher than Abraham" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1615 in this ChristianityBoard thread), yet the Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

Logos is

God (John 1:1)!

The Logos manifested flesh (John 1:14)!

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[Kermos]

Lol, evil, seems like more crazies coming out of the woodwork.

You describe yourself. You "evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13).

I deny nothing Jesus is the Son of God.

You are deceived. You deny Jesus because to believe Jesus is the Son of God is to believe that Jesus is YHWH God since John declares Jesus "was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18); therefore, Jesus is God because being equal with God of nessessity must result One God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Your thoughts result in you having two gods, so you do not believe in Jesus.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[JohnPaul]

You describe yourself. You "evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13).



You are deceived. You deny Jesus because to believe Jesus is the Son of God is to believe that Jesus is YHWH God since John declares Jesus "was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18); therefore, Jesus is God because being equal with God of nessessity must result One God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Your thoughts result in you having two gods, so you do not believe in Jesus.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

Whatever you say.

 

[Kermos]

@Kermos

Despite everything in your lengthy claim the one thing that will without a doubt expose anyone as a liar is:

“…he who denies that Jesus is the Christ… He who denies the Father and the Son is antichrist. Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father.” (1 John 2:22-23)

So you are inordinately zealous over something the Bible gives no authority to be zealous over.

I could surmise who is a liar but he that diminishes from the fact that Jesus is the Christ! Be careful that you are not moved in that direction by your emotional attachment to man’s doctrines.

The Apostle John did not write that Jesus is EXCLUSIVELY the Christ in 1 John 2:22-23; furthermore, John did not write that Jesus is EXCLUSIVELY the Son in 1 John 2:22-23.

The Apostle John did write that Jesus is the Word.

John wrote that Jesus is the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) with "the Word was God" (John 1:1).

Antichrist is a person who denies that Jesus is the Christ as well as the Son as well as the Word as well as YHWH God

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[Kermos]

Whatever you say.

Your response apoears disingenuous. If you really meant it, then you would joyfully proclaim that Jesus is God!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[JohnPaul]

Your response apoears disingenuous. If you really meant it, then you would joyfully proclaim that Jesus is God!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

Jesus is the son of God.

 

[Wrangler]

1 John says stuff like the following...

"God dwelleth in us" "Hereby know we that we dwell in him" "and he in us" "because he hath given us of his Spirit" "he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God" "and God in him"

And believe me none of these verses make me God.

It is a great point! "Oneness" between God and Jesus is supposed to mean he is God but "oneness" with us? D'at Different.

 

[APAK]

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] in post #632 in this thread).


APAK, @tigger 2, @XFire and @Wrangler (you latter 3 by your APAK post agreement likes) - no other scripture records a man making this awesome declaration to everlasting existence in prior time along with the words "ego eimi" (I AM) - Jesus alone makes such declaration as recorded by the Apostle John (John 8:58) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1438 in this ChristianityBoard thread), yet you wickedly ascribe the everlasting attribute to everyone who says "ego eimi" (I am) in the scriptures thus you have a multitude of gods, so your deception runs deep in your heart.

In a stroke of linguistic folly, you wickedly adulterate John 8:58 into "Truly, truly, I say to you, I simply rank higher than Abraham" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1615 in this ChristianityBoard thread), yet the Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

So I see you are proud to keep parading around your god and idol you call this great 'I AM.' And you know YHWH was NEVER called this title or description ever, let alone his Son. You have taken the Greek to English translation of 'I am' and then capitalized it all for effect and authenticity, and you really think it means what YHWH said to Moses in the OT of Exodus. Well you are so confused because you just cannot carelessly mix the Hebrew with the Greek languages as having the same translated English words or meanings. And further, they are NOT the same words at all. And so you really do not have a clue what you are writing about, as many others as you and they also worship this same ridiculous god. And as if I should really pay attention to all this nonsense as you ridicule my Father in heaven.

You should be worshipping the one true God, YHWH, our Father!

Yahshua would also agree and might say something like this to you: 'I was and still I am only the Son of the true one God, my Father, and I was and I am still greater than Abraham even before I spoke to those Pharisees (Before Abraham I am, or in the English form of sentence structure, 'I am before or greater than Abraham').'

Yahshua would continue to say to you, 'Abraham was the old physical seed and the human father of faith, as I became the new spiritual seed, the human son of faith, and the new root of the glory and grace of my Father in heaven. I am living in immortality today with my Father in heaven because of him, who created me on earth, the one YHWH, who said he is I AM that I AM, and HE WILL BE what HE WILL BE. So please do not confuse the identity of YHWH, my Father and place part (half) of it as my identity, as his Son as if we are the same, and we are not!'

You want so badly to make Yahshua the exact same essence as YHWH, the Father of all spirits don't you? Well it won't happen, it's impossible!

Here's a little more technical stuff to show why you should stop embarrassing yourself with this great "I AM.' Give it up!

Look at John 8:58b...

In Exodus 3:14, YHWH called himself to Moses, in Hebrew, אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎, to ’ehyeh ’ăšer ’ehyeh . If we wanted to translate this expression into Greek, to compare what is said in verse 58b, we see they are completely different expressions in translation and meaning. It would translate into English as: ‘ego eimi ho ōn’ This is not the same as ‘ego eimi’ at all. YHWH gave an expression of himself, of his personal name. A rough English translation would be like: ‘I am who I am,’ ‘I am that/what I am,’ ‘I am the being’ or ‘I am the existing one’ or ‘I am existing,’ and other words for this effect – never just ‘I am.’ You see in Greek, ‘ego eimi’ is a common expression used by ALL people and not just Jesus. It literally means, that I am he or she, the one who is the subject at hand, and sometimes said in a very emphatic and prejudicial way as in John 8:58b.

Yahshua would clarify his words for you Kermos and add some context to it.

'I am greater (before) than Abraham, the father you (Pharisees) claim although you are a den of vipers and do not act as his sons - his physical seed.'