John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,600
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm thinking that being one does not actually make two or more people somehow one person. Otherwise how would you explain all of us also being one? I think you're a great guy and all, but I do like being myself!

I think there are better explanations for what it means when two or more people are said to be one. I'd say the normal way we take that is to mean two or more people are united in goals, purposes, methods, etc. Why can't it be that way with Jesus and God? Jesus always subjugated his will to that of his Father. How in the world that doesn't put the trinity to rest once and for all is beyond me. God does not have a split personality! His will and Jesus' will are different simply because they are different individuals. I think it just shows the power of tradition to make the word of God of none effect (Mark 7:13)

Doh! You forgot about the artificial parsing of synonyms, 'person' from 'Being.' When I ask for a verse that makes this distinction, their funny appeal to mysticism emerges. Something like, only people who believe as I do are part of the Spirit body, you gots to believe and then it will make sense, etc.
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,510
460
83
74
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Doh! You forgot about the artificial parsing of synonyms, 'person' from 'Being.' When I ask for a verse that makes this distinction, their funny appeal to mysticism emerges. Something like, only people who believe as I do are part of the Spirit body, you gots to believe and then it will make sense, etc.
Sure, just go full blown Gnostic. Learn the "secrets" and all is well! :)
 

Kermos

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2019
2,257
366
83
United States
JesusDelivers.Faith
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The part I like best is, "WAIT, THERE'S MORE:" As if that which proceeded wasn't enough to send condemn me to 10,000 deaths! :)

"Fools mock at sin" (Proverbs 14:9).

Jesus is the Word (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #329 in this thread), but you foolishly deny the Word of God.

In the same vein, Luke 1:1-2 identify Jesus is the Word, just like John 1:14 identifies Jesus is the Word (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #394 in this thread), so you intensely persist in your rejection of the Word of God.

You admit "the Word was God" (John 1:1) states that "the Word" is being referred to as "God" with your writing of 'the "word" was God Himself' (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #238 in this thread), but you wickedly proceeded to disassociate John's writing from John's writing in John chapter 1 where John declares Jesus is the Word (John 1:14) your heart evilly disassociates from Jesus being God "the Word was God" (John 1:1) since Jesus is the Word (John 1:14).

You publicly blaspheme against the Holy Spirit (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #421 in this thread) because you call the Holy Spirit a grotesque thing.

You convey that no person was ever created except for Adam in your complete denial of God's sovereignty (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #447 in this thread), yet the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14) declares "I formed you in the womb" (Jeremiah 1:5), so every person born has been created by God in the person's mother's womb. Jesus, truly God, exists eternally, so Jesus is uncreated.

In a similar vein, You convey that the words "formed" and "created" unrelated with respect to God's creation, yet "formed" and "created" are intimately related (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #449 in this thread) because "All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3) is John’s writing about Jesus causing everything to "be", that is, to exist for Jesus is the Word (shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #238 in this thread)

Continuing in a similar vein, The words "formed" and "created" are used synonymously in Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:7 for God's creative act of bringing Adam into existence (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #452 in this thread); therefore, God establishes the precedent for the words "formed" and "created" to show God's creative act. Man is created. Man is formed. God is uncreated. Jesus is YHWH God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14)

WAIT, THERE'S MORE:

You demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links:

Despite being confronted by the Word of God clearly indicating that Jesus manifesting flesh as truly Man exists with the Word of God clearly indicating that Jesus as truly God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1681 in this ChristianityBoard thread), you foolishly persist in your delusion of destruction that Jesus is not YHWH God.

moreover

You evilly use your flattering tongue to additionally spread lies about Jesus such as your heart's deception that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1554 in this ChristianityBoard thread), and you deny Apostolic testimony that Jesus is God by your wicked thoughts that clear verses "are ambiguous and don't say outright that Jesus is God", and you disrespect and dishonor the Holy Name of God showing your wolf in sheep's clothing internals.

moreover

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this ChristianityBoard thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this ChristianityBoard thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this ChristianityBoard thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

moreover

(1)You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change" (2) in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel" (3) which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1331 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

moreover


You confusedly lie about writings including Paul's writing that Jesus is not the first man born (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1703 in this ChristianityBoard thread)
, as is clearly shown between Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 15:47.

moreover

You show your utter disrespectful contempt for the Word of God by trying to change the meaning of the Hebrew language (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1660 in this ChristianityBoard thread), even after you've been shown the word for Strong's 5162 means "to be sorry, console oneself", not "repent", but truly something akin to "sorrow"; IN EFFECT, YOU LABEL YHWH GOD A CONFUSED FOOL THAT LIES.

moreover

You show a repeated disrespect and dishonor and disregard for the God Most High by misspelling the sacred and Holy Name of God, YHWH, (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1287 in this ChristianityBoard thread) in at least 3 different posts; therefore, you publicly show just how little God means to you as well as your failure to understand God

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.
 

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2022
1,351
1,048
113
79
Auckland
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I think the expressions Father and Son do not do justice to the nature of relationship in the trinity.

Folks refuse to allow for mystery as if the otherness of God must fit our simple language.

To expect the technical analysis of words to reveal the depth of God is a fallacy.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,600
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think the expressions Father and Son do not do justice to the nature of relationship in the trinity.

Folks refuse to allow for mystery as if the otherness of God must fit our simple language.

To expect the technical analysis of words to reveal the depth of God is a fallacy.
Pure mysticism. You assert something is true, then blame reason and language for your failure to factually support what you claim is true.

Appeal to Strawman. No one is 'refusing to allow for the mystery of the otherness of God.' We are just not violating Mark 7:13, in speculating beyond the actual word of God.
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,510
460
83
74
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Fools mock at sin" (Proverbs 14:9).

Jesus is the Word (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #329 in this thread), but you foolishly deny the Word of God.

In the same vein, Luke 1:1-2 identify Jesus is the Word, just like John 1:14 identifies Jesus is the Word (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #394 in this thread), so you intensely persist in your rejection of the Word of God.

You admit "the Word was God" (John 1:1) states that "the Word" is being referred to as "God" with your writing of 'the "word" was God Himself' (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #238 in this thread), but you wickedly proceeded to disassociate John's writing from John's writing in John chapter 1 where John declares Jesus is the Word (John 1:14) your heart evilly disassociates from Jesus being God "the Word was God" (John 1:1) since Jesus is the Word (John 1:14).

You publicly blaspheme against the Holy Spirit (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #421 in this thread) because you call the Holy Spirit a grotesque thing.

You convey that no person was ever created except for Adam in your complete denial of God's sovereignty (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #447 in this thread), yet the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14) declares "I formed you in the womb" (Jeremiah 1:5), so every person born has been created by God in the person's mother's womb. Jesus, truly God, exists eternally, so Jesus is uncreated.

In a similar vein, You convey that the words "formed" and "created" unrelated with respect to God's creation, yet "formed" and "created" are intimately related (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #449 in this thread) because "All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3) is John’s writing about Jesus causing everything to "be", that is, to exist for Jesus is the Word (shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #238 in this thread)

Continuing in a similar vein, The words "formed" and "created" are used synonymously in Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:7 for God's creative act of bringing Adam into existence (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #452 in this thread); therefore, God establishes the precedent for the words "formed" and "created" to show God's creative act. Man is created. Man is formed. God is uncreated. Jesus is YHWH God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14)

WAIT, THERE'S MORE:

You demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links:

Despite being confronted by the Word of God clearly indicating that Jesus manifesting flesh as truly Man exists with the Word of God clearly indicating that Jesus as truly God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1681 in this ChristianityBoard thread), you foolishly persist in your delusion of destruction that Jesus is not YHWH God.

moreover

You evilly use your flattering tongue to additionally spread lies about Jesus such as your heart's deception that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1554 in this ChristianityBoard thread), and you deny Apostolic testimony that Jesus is God by your wicked thoughts that clear verses "are ambiguous and don't say outright that Jesus is God", and you disrespect and dishonor the Holy Name of God showing your wolf in sheep's clothing internals.

moreover

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this ChristianityBoard thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

moreover

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

moreover

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

moreover

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

moreover

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this ChristianityBoard thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

moreover

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this ChristianityBoard thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

moreover

(1)You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change" (2) in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel" (3) which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1331 in this ChristianityBoard thread), so you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

moreover


You confusedly lie about writings including Paul's writing that Jesus is not the first man born (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1703 in this ChristianityBoard thread)
, as is clearly shown between Colossians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 15:47.

moreover

You show your utter disrespectful contempt for the Word of God by trying to change the meaning of the Hebrew language (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1660 in this ChristianityBoard thread), even after you've been shown the word for Strong's 5162 means "to be sorry, console oneself", not "repent", but truly something akin to "sorrow"; IN EFFECT, YOU LABEL YHWH GOD A CONFUSED FOOL THAT LIES.

moreover

You show a repeated disrespect and dishonor and disregard for the God Most High by misspelling the sacred and Holy Name of God, YHWH, (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1287 in this ChristianityBoard thread) in at least 3 different posts; therefore, you publicly show just how little God means to you as well as your failure to understand God

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.
The part I like best is, "WAIT, THERE'S MORE:" As if that which proceeded wasn't enough to send condemn me to 10,000 deaths! :)
 

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2022
1,351
1,048
113
79
Auckland
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Pure mysticism. You assert something is true, then blame reason and language for your failure to factually support what you claim is true.

Appeal to Strawman. No one is 'refusing to allow for the mystery of the otherness of God.' We are just not violating Mark 7:13, in speculating beyond the actual word of God.

Through the word He has communicated sufficient to give us basic understandings but the mystery of His Majesty and and Wonder remains.

This is not mysticism.

1 Cor 2:9

...eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the human heart, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,510
460
83
74
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Through the word He has communicated sufficient to give us basic understandings but the mystery of His Majesty and and Wonder remains.

This is not mysticism.

1 Cor 2:9

...eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the human heart, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Hello Brother. Context. You forgot the rest of the chapter. It changes everything. The previous verses were talking about the princes of this world not knowing anything about God. The rest of the chapter is talking about born again believers and it's quite a different story for them. We can know all about God. Read on...

1 Cor 2:10-16,

10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

If you think Jesus knew a few things about God, then we, having the mind of Christ, ought to know a few things about Him also.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2022
1,351
1,048
113
79
Auckland
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
This does not indicate we know all about God and His Majesty and Wonders...

It does indicate we receive revelation from the Holy Spirit.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,600
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Through the word He has communicated sufficient to give us basic understandings but the mystery of His Majesty and and Wonder remains.

So what? Why down play the 'basic understanding' he gave us through Scripture but play up the mystical majesty and wonder? This thread is NOT about 'mystical majesty and wonder' but about knowing - which even 'basic understanding' is knowing - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God. Ergo, trinitarianism contradicts explicit teachings of Scripture.

A fact of reality is that more advanced knowledge does not contradict 'basic understanding.' The US is a republic and is not nor ever was a Democracy. This 'basic understanding' is true whether you are learning about introduction to civics or in graduate school history or philosophy.

This is not mysticism.

If this is not mysticism, then what qualifies as mystical?

This does not indicate we know all about God and His Majesty and Wonders...
Mysticism. We don't know about X because we don't know 'all about' X.
 

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2022
1,351
1,048
113
79
Auckland
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
So what? Why down play the 'basic understanding' he gave us through Scripture but play up the mystical majesty and wonder? This thread is NOT about 'mystical majesty and wonder' but about knowing - which even 'basic understanding' is knowing - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God. Ergo, trinitarianism contradicts explicit teachings of Scripture.

A fact of reality is that more advanced knowledge does not contradict 'basic understanding.' The US is a republic and is not nor ever was a Democracy. This 'basic understanding' is true whether you are learning about introduction to civics or in graduate school history or philosophy.



If this is not mysticism, then what qualifies as mystical?


Mysticism. We don't know about X because we don't know 'all about' X.

Please enjoy your perspective...

1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,622
2,310
113
77
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

Just as we who are born again and filled with His Spirit have the mind of Christ and abide in Him and He in us, 1 Corinthians 2:16, 1 John 3:24, Jesus had the mind of the Father - they are inseparable; they are one. John 17
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,510
460
83
74
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 2:16,

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
I'm guessing you wouldn't think we are actually Christ because we have the mind of Christ. So why would Jesus having the mind of his Father make him God?

If you still want to insist that Jesus is God because he has His mind, you create a huge contradiction with both John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6.

In any case, John 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 state unambiguously that only the Father is God. You are trying to ignore those clear verses while twisting other verses that aren't nearly as clear in supposedly proving Jesus is God. Just read what's written without introducing preconceived ideas and there's no contradiction.

Better look for other explanations as to what having the mind of God means. Is there even a verse that says Jesus has the mind of God, or is that an assumption? Not saying there isn't any verse that says that, but I've not seen it yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2022
1,351
1,048
113
79
Auckland
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Thanks! I totally enjoy my non-mystical perspective and you dancing around simple questions in a desperate attempt to divert attention from the subject at hand.

War is bad.
Prosperity is good.
God has more mystery and wonders than we know.

I enjoy my non-mystical perspective as well...

Have a great day...
 

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
3,325
964
113
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God. This is in complete agreement with Corinthians.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Again, the Father is called the one God.

John calls Jesus the son more than 50 times and never calls him the Father.

John 1:1,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If we say Jesus is God then that means he is either the Father (which is totally counter to the Creeds) or he is not the true God (John 17:3) nor the one God (1 Cor 8:6).

Many solve the problem by finding out exactly what the "word" (logos) is in John 1:1. Hint: it's not Jesus.

Please confine the discussion to these verses in John. All the other so-called proof verses don't change what John clearly said. All verses have to fit.

I bit on what I wrote elsewhere concerning John 1:1...
It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rich R

JunChosen

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2020
2,006
479
83
Los Angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 17:1-3,

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus was talking to his Father and called Him the only true God
.

In the Bible, Jesus makes direct claims, and He also makes indirect claims. We’ll start with the indirect claims. First, Jesus made staggering claims about His ability to meet the spiritual needs of others. In the gospel of John there is a great succession of “I am” statements made by Jesus. “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness.” “I am the bread of life.” “I am the door.” “I am the good shepherd.” “I am the resurrection and the life.” “I am the way, the truth and the life,” and so on.
Why are these “I am” statements significant? Because when Jesus makes each of these statements, He is claiming that He and He alone could meet every individual’s need for forgiveness, peace, security, and direction. And
He alone could bring them into a living, eternal relationship with God. He is not simply making interesting statements. He is actually affirming
certain convictions about who He is. “Follow Me,” He says, “and you’ll never walk in darkness.” “Eat the bread of life and you’ll never hunger again.”
“Follow Me, walk with Me, and I’ll take you directly into heaven.”

It is difficult to imagine how anyone in his right mind could make even one of these claims without believing himself to be God. Imagine a man walking onto the stage of human history and saying, “I am the way, the truth, the life. Nobody comes to God the Father but through me.” That man is either a bad man telling lies, or a madman totally deluded or he is the Godman. He is actually who he claims to be.

We need to be able to engage our friends at this level of dialogue. We can say to them, “I know you’ve got a problem with this idea of Jesus being
divine, but look at what He said. He’s either a liar, a madman, or God. Do you think He’s a liar?” “No,” they’ll probably say. “Do you think He’s crazy?” They might say, “No, I don’t think so. He healed people and welcomed them and talked with them. I don’t think he was crazy.”

“Well, then, who do you think He is?” The standard
answer is, “I think he was just a good man.”
How can you have a good man who tells lies like this? He did not leave us the option of being a good man. He was either who He said He was,
or “He would either be a lunatic, or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse.”

1. The evidence in the Bible is that Jesus made staggering statements and claims concerning how He alone could address the spiritual needs of others.
Secondly, He made astonishing claims about His teachings. In Matthew 5:18 during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, “I tell you the truth, until
heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished
.” Jesus was here affirming the authenticity of the Old Testament. He was saying what others would say of the Scriptures—they
are from God, they are factual, they cannot be tampered with. Then in Matthew 24:35, He says the same thing about His own words: “Heaven
and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”
He was claiming that His words were like the Old Testament words. “The words that I
speak are the very words of God. They will never, ever pass away
.”

Two thousand years later, we are studying the
very words of Jesus, which He said will never pass away, despite the fact that centuries have tried to grind into the dust of oblivion the very truth of the
Scriptures. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus also takes false
interpretations of the Old Testament and corrects them. He says,
You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and
anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.
(Matthew 5:21–22a). You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (vv. 27–28).

It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife, ...’ But I tell you, ... (vv. 31–32). You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you... (vv. 43–44).
And on and on.

What is the point here? If someone else were to take the Bible and say, “You’ve heard what the Bible tells you to do, but I’m telling you to do this other,” we’d be saying back, “Who in the world do you think you are?” What was Jesus doing? He was clearly making astonishing claims about His
teaching. He was putting His teaching on a par with the rest of biblical instruction.

Third, Jesus claimed He would be directly involved in all the major aspects of the end of the world. In John 14:3, He says to His disciples, “I go and
prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
” Who is this man who stands at a moment in time and space and says, “I’m going to be involved in wrapping up the end of the world”? Jesus said, “I’m going to go away and I’m going to come back.” This is a relevant statement in our twentieth-century culture. The whole world is consumed with people who have had near death experiences—they have gone away and come back. Yet if you say, “What if I could introduce you to somebody who had an out-of-body experience and actually died and definitely came back,” their initial interest would wane when you told them
it was Jesus. “Oh, I thought you were going to tell
me about a real person who went away and came back.” Minds that think like this are predisposed to error. They are prepared to believe the most
unbelievable things and are at the same time unprepared to accept that which is explicit in the statements of Jesus. He said, “I’m going to go away
and I’m going to come back.” In John 5:27, He said He was going to be involved in the judgment of the world: “And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.” Realizing people’s jaws would be hanging down in response to this, He said, “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me” (John 5:28–30).

In Matthew 25:31–32, Jesus says, “... he will sit on his throne ... and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Some people say, “Isn’t Jesus just like Buddha? Isn’t Jesus just like Krishna? Isn’t He just like another Hindu avatar?” When we answer, “No, He’s not,” they ask, “How is He not?” Some of us may answer,
“I don’t know how He’s not. I just know He’s not.” A person who has genuine questions about Jesus is not going to put up with that nonsense. If we
cannot say why Jesus is not like Buddha, we are likely to get this kind of response: “Thank you very much, you don’t know anything. You are a
Christian ignoramus and you are annoying me.
Don’t stand there and shout in my face. Listen to my questions and go home and do your homework until you know the answer.” One of the answers is that Buddha never said he was going to sit on a throne and be involved in the judgment of the world. One of the other answers is that Buddha never claimed to be the one who spoke the very oracles and words of God. But it takes some Sunday afternoons with a concordance to come up with answers. It takes some evenings with your Bible and a pencil. It
takes some thinking. It takes some discovering. It takes some diligence. All any reasonable teacher can do is stir within you the desire to become a
student of the Bible. You cannot be spoon-fed into being able to articulate your faith. It takes hard work.

continue
 

JunChosen

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2020
2,006
479
83
Los Angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Continue

The fourth thing Jesus made clear in His indirect claims was that people’s reaction to Him was a indication of their reaction to God. In John 14, Jesus has just said He is going away and He will come back and receive them unto Himself, when Philip steps up and asks a question. Philip is a great guy to have in class because he always asks the dumb question you were afraid to ask yourself. Philip says, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us” (v. 8). Jesus answers him, “Don’t you know me, Philip?” What is Jesus saying here? He is saying, “Anyone who has seen me has
seen the Father
” (v. 9). Some people say Jesus never ever claimed to be God. What is this, if not a claim to be God? Back in John 12, Jesus was addressing the Jews in their unbelief. He was preaching out of the Old
Testament, showing how the Old Testament tied in with the New. Verses 42 through 45 say, “But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God. Then Jesus cried out, ‘When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.’ ”The same thing happens when Jesus welcomes the children in Mark’s gospel. In Mark 9:36–37, He takes a little child in His arms and says, “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me.” And then here comes the kicker: “And whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.” In John, the flip side of it is also very clear. Jesus
says in John 5:22, “The Father judges no one, but
has entrusted all judgment to the Son.
” Why? “That all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not
honor the Father, who sent Him
” (v. 23). That is straightforward.

Perhaps someone were to come to you and say, “I am a believer. I believe in God, I honor Jehovah. I just don’t honor Jesus the Son. I don’t believe he is
the incarnate Son of God. But I’m okay because I honor the Father.” What does Jesus say to that? “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Now, Mormon people are lovely, really committed to the family, committed to doing well in business, strong in certain foundational principles. But in
dialogue with us they say, “We honor the Father; we do not honor Christ as the incarnate Son of God.” Mormons who tell you they do are either deluded and have not understood the teaching or they are lying to you. Orthodox Mormonism does not honor Christ as the co-equal, co-eternal Son of
God
. They affirm, “We honor the Father.”

Let’s look at what Jesus says. “He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent Him.” So what then is the spiritual power which impels Mormonism? If it is impossible not to honor God the Father except in the righteous honor of the Son, then those who claim to honor the Father and ignore the Son do not honor the Father. So where
is their spiritual power coming from?
John 15:23 says, “He who hates me hates my Father as well.
Some people say, “I don’t hate God. I just hate anyone who says Jesus is God, because nowhere does the Bible suggest that.” But Jesus says in the
Bible, “You say you hate me, then you hate my Father as well.” Why? Jesus says, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). “You can’t talk about me without talking about my Dad and you can’t talk about my Dad without talking about me. So don’t say you can love my Dad and hate me.
On a more superficial level, you can tell a lot about how people feel about the father by the way they treat his kids. The Father looks down from heaven
and instructs, “You honor my Son. You listen to His words.” Someone replies, “I don’t want to listen to His words. I just want to honor You.” And Jesus’ comeback is the same: “You can’t honor the Father unless you honor the Son. If you hate Me, you hate God.
The Jewish people in Jesus’ day could not stomach that. They said, Listen, “Abraham is our father” (see John 8:39). “We don’t have to listen to this
stuff, Jesus. We are nice, upright, religious people
. We have Abraham as our father. We can go to the
real source.

Jesus said to them, “You belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire... He is a liar and the father of lies” (John
8:44). Did a madman speak these words? Or a bad man? Or the Godman?

To God Be The Glory
 
Last edited:

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,600
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ

A point I have made over the years is that the reason trinitarians MUST believe "word" refers to Christ is because the Biblical support for the man-is-god thesis is otherwise so weak.

Therefore, they must resort to taking figurative language and insisting only a trinitarian interpretation is valid. At the same time, they are forced to completely ignore explicit verses that go against their doctrine, like 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 as @Rich R just pointed out and as I did in the thread, arguing that the juxtaposition of God from Jesus in so many verses may be the strongest argument against trinitarianism. IF Jesus were God, there would not be 1 single verse like 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.' It would read their preferred 'Father' loved the world ...

So, I don't think a retreat into Greek is necessary. (Of course, I am biased since foreign language is not my strong suit). John 1:1 is figurative language usage. Today we have an expression, 'my word is my bond.' Here 'word' is also used figuratively to refer to one having integrity, of doing what one says. Likewise, God's words are his bond. You can take it to the bank. God said, 'let there be light' and there was light. God said in Deut 18:15-18 that he would put his words (plural) into one of the people, which is what he did in Jesus at v14, So the Word became human. This fulfilled prophecy.

The cognitive dissonance of trinitarians is so complete, they become unglued when I point out that Scripture does not say God became incarnate but that his word became incarnate, his words (plural) put into the mouth of a prophet he chooses (raises up) among the people. The reason they become unglued is precisely because it is a better interpretation, has more Scriptural support and leaves them no where to go to better support their 4th century man-made dogma.

And this brings up a profound point of logic. Because there is no verse that explicitly says Jesus is God, they are forced to rely on implication. However, a true implication is a necessary consequence, not merely a possible consequence of the sentence. And the analysis I provide reveals the verse is NOT truly implying what they want it to. All they can do is deny other interpretations, other implications EVEN THOUGH stronger than the inference they want to draw.

I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words (plural) in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him. Deut 18:18 (emphasis added)
 
  • Like
Reactions: tigger 2 and APAK
Status
Not open for further replies.