22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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Phoneman777
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- Jan 14, 2015
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You realize the clouds ain't that high, right? The Earth ain't empty if Jesus and the saints are hovering in the clouds watching everything go up in smoke...and if Jesus is there outshining the Sun "with the brightness of His coming", when does Jeremiah's prophecy that the "heavens shall be black" with "no light" take place?
Remember, these "heavens of black" ain't referring to an ancient destruction of Israel - it is a future event that happens "at the presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger" when Jesus comes at the Second Coming.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What happens right after Jesus returns and sends fire down on the earth is the judgment, as can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46. You somehow don't have that event happening until 1000+ years later.
Speak for yourself. You have no direct rebuttals to challenge the Op.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You are missing the point that many since Moses did not make it. You are applying an historical truth prior to the Cross, to your alleged church of today.
Not all those who go to church and claim the name church will make it either.
The difference is prior to the Cross they were born into Israel. Today people just sign up as members and think that is all they need to do.
For they are not all church, which are of church.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Even the lost sheep of Israel were far off and not part of the commonwealth of Israel. We are not talking modern day citizenship privileges for Chinese Israelites in what was left of the polity of first century Judaea. Remember they still had a temple in Jerusalem until the Cross. And delegates did go up each year for the Passover, even after the Cross, but there was no national bond all over the world.
Do you think the Jews in Ephesus who had the luxury of moving around as Roman citizens all over the Roman Empire embraced Paul's message of equality with the Gentile Roman counterparts and called that Israel?
Paul called it the body of Christ, and certainly the Jews who rejected the Gospel, rejected any notion of being spiritually bound to their fellow Roman citizens. Paul was not really welcomed by orthodox Jews any where he went. Certainly they were not going to buy this new Israeli citizenship you talk of.
That is the point of separating Israel from a spiritual intimate relationship. Being born physically does not get you all the way there. Being born into God's family is the spiritual birth necessary. The economy of the OT made the physical birth special with a works based association to the spiritual reward. You can never replace the faith based intimacy with a physical works based economy, though. So until you interview every Israelite born between Moses and the Cross, it would be hard for you to just look back in hindsight and declare your own theology sufficient to make such a brass distinction. That is why Paul said, not all Israel is of Israel. But that point stopped at the Cross.
So you can't claim that distinction for yourself, and especially since you are not joined into physical Israel. That is a spiritual symbolism. You are not a physical Israelite. You are not a Spiritual one either. You are an adopted son of God, not a physically adopted son of Jacob, nor a spiritualy adopted son of Jacob. Only an Israelite remains such from physical birth, while being spiritually born from above as well. You are a spiritual Gentile. You are in the wild Gentile branch, as there is no current natural Israeli branch, grafted back in yet. But according to you, they never will be as that will be in the Millennium Kingdom that you deny will happen.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is still pointing to God's choice not one's physical connection.
It certainly is not redefining Israel into a spiritual entity. You are trying to prove that many physically born to Abraham will some how loose that physical connection.
God has always preferred certain offspring over other offspring. One receives the promise, the other left out on the front porch. Sitting around in the lake of fire bragging you are a descendant of Abraham is not going to make a difference one bit.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 11:13-16
"Confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
It certainly is not Israel. More like Paradise and the New Jerusalem.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The "it" is the Jerusalem in the 1,000 year reign of Christ. There is no Jerusalem in the next reality. The Jerusalem in Isaiah 65 will pass away after Jesus hands back this current creation, and it all goes back into God, as the all in all. Your next Jerusalem is a totally different reality called the New Jerusalem. You are trying to force earthly Jerusalem into a totally different mold as the one presented in Isaiah 65.
Isaiah 65 is written about the Millennium Kingdom, not the new reality God will again create out of nothing, after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. The Day of the Lord that is introduced at the Second Coming, and after all the mess cleaned up, and the final harvest.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Israel is not the church. The body of Christ is. Israel is not the bride, the church is. Israel existed from Moses until the Assyrian removal of the northern 10 tribes. The church was not Israel between Moses and the removal of the northern 10 tribes.
Paul was comparing Israel with Israel, not the church.
Just like you think it ridiculous to call zionism the church today, you are claiming that about the words of Paul in the first century. That is totally hypocritical of you. Are you saying it was OK in the first century, but now it is not OK? Calling the church National Israel is just as wrong today as it was in the first century, except now the shoe is on the other foot. The church is about to be removed and Israel brought back. And no spiritualization will change the facts back in the first century, nor today.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Paul won't argue for an idea shared by his friends and his opponents. The idea that a Jew must be physically circumcised is a well established cultural practice among the Jews of Paul's day.
Remember, the sentence you quoted comes from a paragraph which begins, "If you bear the name Jew and rely upon the law . . ." The subject of the sentence are ethnic Jews. The question is, who among the ethnic Jews are true Jews? Among the circumcised, those with circumcised hearts are true Jews.
Elsewhere Paul argues that all believers in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile are circumcised of heart. But contrary to the claim in this thread, Paul never concludes that all those of circumcised hearts are "Jews" in some spiritual sense.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Good question. Short answer: they were both brought near to God.
Long answer:
Paul is drawing upon the situation at the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The temple complex was divided into sections, spheres of access to the holy of holies. At the center was the Holy of Holies where only one priest could enter and only once a year. Outside of that area, was another section where only the priests could enter. Outside of that area was another section where any Jewish man could enter, outside of that was a section where Jewish women were allowed to enter, and outside of that section was a place where Gentiles were allowed to enter. The entire temple complex was built to illustrate the concept of "holiness" as understood by those who designed the temple complex. The High priest is presumed to be the most holy person in Israel, priests in general were also holy and etc. Gentiles were not allowed to gain access to the temple because they were considered "unholy."
Paul argues for universal access to God for all those in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit. The Jewish people were "near" to God literally, physically and spiritually. The Gentiles were far away, literally, physically, and spiritually. The cross of Christ, Paul argues, brought both Jews and Gentiles near to God via the Holy Spirit. Now, let's look at the passage to see what I mean.
Ephesians 2:13-18
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Jesus' death, burial, resurrection and ascension is the means by which all can gain access to God.
For He Himself is our peace,
Jesus brought about the means for us to be reconciled to God, he is our peace (reconciliation)
who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
He didn't literally break down the wall. Now the Jews and Gentiles don't need a temple in order to gain access to God.
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,
One might think that Paul has eliminated the law of Moses here. That is not what Paul meant. He is focused on the statutory requirements and restrictions associated with temple worship. These rules are abolished in that temple worship has been rendered unnecessary.
so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Jewish believers and Gentile believers are united in a completely different "anthropos" That is, Paul announces the creation of an entirely different kind of human being, which results in an entirely new and different sort of people group, based on their shared involvement with the Holy Spirit.
and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Not only is this new people group reconciled to God, they are reconciled to each other also.
And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near;
The New Anthropos is comprised of those who were close to God, by culture and practice, and those who were far away from God by culture and practice.
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
A temple is no longer necessary to have access to the Father because they all have access via the one Spirit.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, okay.
The term "Israel" colored red in verse 6, indicates the people and nation of Israel who will exist during the time when God will fulfill his promise to that people group. The term "Israel" colored blue in verse 6 indicates Jacob the man. God changed Jacob's name from Jacob to Israel just after he wrestled with God and prevailed. Genesis 32:27-29
Paul has set about to explain to his readers why God has established the New Covenant without also pouring out his spirit on all of Israel. He begins his argument with a defense of God's sovereignty. Not all of Israel's children will be blessed at that time; only those whom God has chosen.
Some Gentile, faithful believers inadvertently read themselves into this passage, mistakenly concluding that Paul is redefining the term "Israel" to include each and every believer under the New Covenant -- Jew or Gentile. Given this passage alone, this is a fair conclusion -- but a wrong one. Gentile believers must allow Paul to finish his argument and not jump to a conclusion too early. In my opinion, once we reach the end of his argument and hear his conclusion, we come to understand what Paul actually meant.
In Romans 11, Paul concludes his argument with a few key statements and among one of these is his perspective concerning the timing of God's promise to Israel. Yes, both Jews and Gentiles are now under the New Covenant, but God has delayed his promise to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. After that, God will keep his promise to both Israel the man and Israel the nation.
Now, there are those who affirm the Premillennial doctrine who believe that God will bring about a wholesale and complete conversion of the entire nation all at once. I used to believe this and defend it. After my study of the prophets, I no longer believe this to be true. This is worthy of another conversation at another time perhaps.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Paul argues for an entirely new type of citizenship, based on the creation of an entirely new "anthropos." Citizens from people groups all around the world, including citizens from the people group known as "Israel" are united, by Christ, into an entirely new people group, not based on lineage, but based on "the new man", as Paul indicates it.
The new man or the new "anthropos" is one on whom God has poured out his spirit. This one's eyes are opened; his (or her) heart is no longer stubborn; he has the eyes to see and the ears to hear; he is walking by the spirit; he has been granted the fruits of the spirit; he cries abba Father; he is humble, loves God, fears God, loves the brethren, forgives those who persecute them, seeks first the kingdom of God; he rejoices with the truth; he bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Thus God has created a new life form, a new type of human being. And all those like him (or her) are all united under Christ into a new polis a new people group, which is why Paul refers to them as "fellow-citizens." These haven't joined an existing polis, they joined an entirely new polis the world has never seen before.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Paul describes an entirely new creation, one that is unique and unprecedented in human history. He indicates this with the phrase "the new man" or the new "anthropos" We are a new creation, he says, (verse 15) created by God for good works. (verse 10)
He tells us that both those near and those far away were brought near in a new way, according to a unique and unprecedented method for drawing near to God, i.e. the Holy Spirit. Where as in times past, people needed to physically gain access to the temple in order to draw near to God; now we gain access to God through the Spirit. (Verse 22) So then, not only has God recreated each believer, transforming that person into a new creature, he has granted them access to him via the Spirit and by means of the blood of the Cross. (verse 13)
For this reason, in my opinion, we are "fellow-citizens" with the saints in a new polis, a new city. Formerly, the Gentiles were not citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, but now, both Jewish believers and Gentile believers are united together into an entirely new type of commonwealth, one that has no precedent in human history.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand. I see how one might read the passage that way.
Some people understand Paul this way. The Gentiles were formerly deprived of various conditions necessary for salvation: citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel, access to Christ, and access to the promises. This left the Gentiles hopeless and Godless. Therefore, the solution to that problem is to declare that Gentiles are citizens of Israel, after they believe in Jesus Christ and hear about the promises.
I understand Paul this way instead. The Gentiles were formerly deprived of access to God and his message of salvation because of distance. The reason they lacked access to God is the following: they lived in Ephesus among the Ephesians, had they lived in Israel, they would have heard the message. Since they lived in Ephesus instead of Israel, they had never heard about a coming messiah, and they never heard about his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. Since they were located in Ephesus rather than Israel, they never heard the message about the covenants of promise. Since they were located in Ephesus rather than Israel they were without God and without hope.
The solution: bring the message to them. Take it to them. Send missionaries, ministers, preachers, and apostles to them. This is what God did.
Those who heard and believed the message were granted an inheritance, and the down-payment of that inheritance is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13-14 Paul refers to these folks as those who are "in him" (verses 1:3, 4, 7, 8, 10, and 13) Here in chapter 2 he says, "in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ." (emphasis mine) In other words, the solution to the proximity problem was not to bring the Ephesians to Israel to hear the message; the solution was to bring the message to Ephesus, where the Ephesians were able to gain access to the Father via the Holy Spirit.
After that, being a foreigner to the Commonwealth of Israel is no obstacle.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I explain this in several posts, answering the questions of @Spiritual Israelite
There is NO indication, one way or the other, that the Commonwealth of Israel represents a company of believers.
Paul makes no such claim.
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