The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Taken]

The Pre-Trib Rapture not WHAT, but WHO, and WHY.

2 Tim 3:
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men ——>shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


[8] Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men ——->of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

[9] But they —->shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

[10] But thou (not “they”) —-> hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: (at the hands of men) ... but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. ——> (Persecutions Of “THEY’; the ungodly)
[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

In the last days Tribulations of man against man shall increase exponentially....even those who think they are bonded together will be deceived, by their “supposed” own.

During Gods Tribulation, those who believe, shall willingly give their life for their belief, and become made saved.
^ Believers who Believe to the day their body dies.

By, Through, Of, Gods Grace, men were offered, and some men accepted ALREADY Haven Given their Life to God for their Belief...
And BY Gods Grace are ALREADY DELIVERED FROM Gods Tribulations.
^ Converted IN Christ Jesus, Crucified with Jesus.

Don’t be sad, if you were Lolly-gagging and failed to Convert...
You can suffer one of any number of painful physical deaths during Gods Tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a sword, and there is blood. It's obviously physical harm that kills.

Yes, it does imply that it's talking about physical harm, but it's not a literal sword which you have acknowledged. Why do you act as if it is?

The passage does not in any way support fire coming out of heaven killing anyone. There is just as much support for people being frozen to death or drowned to death, which is ZERO.

It doesn't indicate that fire does not come down at that time, either. It's all symbolic. To think that the literal destruction has to resemble what it would be like if it occurred by way of a literal sword is like saying that in reality Satan should look like a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Why can you not understand that the real things that are symbolized don't have to resemble the symbols being used?

Another example is the seven candlesticks which represent churches. Do churches resemble candlesticks in reality? No. So, why does the literal destruction caused by a symbolic sword have to resemble the destruction that would be caused by a literal sword?

Wrong, there is no support for that at all. Whatever kills people comes out of his mouth as the scriptures say.

And what is it in reality that you think comes out of His mouth? You've said before you think the sword is symbolic, so what does the symbolic sword symbolize and how exactly does it kill people?

The beliefs are nonsensical and are non-scriptural. Amillennialism wrongly tries to force two different chapters and events as if they were the same which causes all the problems inherent in such endeavors.

No, Amillennialism agrees with what scripture as a whole teaches which is that all unbelievers will be killed at Christ's return, that there is one resurrection event of all the dead, and one judgment day. For example, Acts 17:31 very clearly indicates that God has set or appointed one day to judge everyone which scripture calls the day of judgment or judgment day. Why would you interpret Revelation 19 and 20 in such a way that contradicts that by claiming there are two judgment days?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does not mention heaven either. Since He is coming from heaven, unless it is the moon, it will be the earth.

Why do you assume that it has to occur either in heaven or on earth in light of what this says:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

When you look at this verse then you should see that clearly, even if Matthew 25:31-46 was a different judgment than this (it's not), it is not required that it take place in heaven or on earth.

Certainly this is not a future leaving earth, as Jesus was on earth when He said those words.

Did He not go away and promise to come again?

Yes, but in what location does scripture say that we will meet Him when He comes again? In heaven? No. On earth? No. It says we will meet Him "in the air" when He comes again (1 Thess 4:14-17).

 

[covenantee]

70AD played no part in fulfillment of Luke chapter 21, Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are future events unfulfilled

The cited historical events qualify as wars and rumors of wars, fulfilling that part of Jesus' prophecy.

 

[Truth7t7]

The cited historical events qualify as wars and rumors of wars, fulfilling that part of Jesus' prophecy.

I Disagree, the 70AD event played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24

When the church sees the signs of wars and rumors of wars "This Generation" will not pass until all is fulfilled, including the "Second Coming"

It's a "Future Generation" that will witness the signs and second coming, 70AD played no part in fulfillment as many claim

 

[Phoneman777]

Have you met this poster:

Nothing in his post remotely suggests what you accuse Historicists of teaching. I really don't think you understand fully the tenants of Historicism. If you have any quesitons, please feel free to ask me.

 

[ewq1938]

No, Amillennialism agrees with what scripture as a whole teaches which is that all unbelievers will be killed at Christ's return

Not one verse in the bible says that.

, that there is one resurrection event of all the dead, and one judgment day.

The bible specifically states there are two days of judgment and resurrection, not one of each.

For example, Acts 17:31 very clearly indicates that God has set or appointed one day to judge everyone which scripture calls the day of judgment or judgment day.

The verse does not say everyone is judged that day. Revelation 20 shows two judgments and resurrections separated by a thousand years. Acts is likely speaking of the final day of resurrection and judgment because it speaks of the "world" being judged as opposed to the dead in Christ being judged as found in the first resurrection and judgment.

Why would you interpret Revelation 19 and 20 in such a way that contradicts that by claiming there are two judgment days?

The claim of one resurrection and judgment on the same day goes against what is found in Revelation 19-20, your choice of errant exegesis.

 

[covenantee]

I Disagree, the 70AD event played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24

When the church sees the signs of wars and rumors of wars "This Generation" will not pass until all is fulfilled, including the "Second Coming"

It's a "Future Generation" that will witness the signs and second coming, 70AD played no part in fulfillment as many claim

You would need to prove:

1. That the cited historical events were not wars and rumors of wars, even though they are historically verifiable as such.
2. That "ye" in the prophecy were not Jesus' disciples, even though He addressed them, and they heard Him, and they lived during the cited historical events.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not one verse in the bible says that.

The bible specifically states there are two days of judgment and resurrection, not one of each.




The verse does not say everyone is judged that day. Revelation 20 shows two judgments and resurrections separated by a thousand years. Acts is likely speaking of the final day of resurrection and judgment because it speaks of the "world" being judged as opposed to the dead in Christ being judged as found in the first resurrection and judgment.





The claim of one resurrection and judgment on the same day goes against what is found in Revelation 19-20, your choice of errant exegesis.

Your claim is false "Destroyed Them All" when Jesus is revealed in the second coming

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

You would need to prove:

1. That the cited historical events were not wars and rumors of wars, even though they are historically verifiable as such.
2. That "ye" in the prophecy were not Jesus' disciples, even though He addressed them, and they heard Him, and they lived during the cited historical events.

That is your opinion, the future generation in Matthew 24 will witness the signs and second coming,and it didn't take place in 70AD, it's that simple

The future Great tribulation will be the worst seen, and never seen again, World War II dwarfs the back yard fight in 70AD Jerusalem, and no there isn't dual fulfillment Matthew 24 as many claim in historicism

 

[covenantee]

That is your opinion, the future generation in Matthew 24 will witness the signs and second coming,and it didn't take place in 70AD, it's that simple

The future Great tribulation will be the worst seen, and never seen again, World War II dwarfs the back yard fight in 70AD Jerusalem, and no there isn't dual fulfillment Matthew 24 as many claim in historicism

Speculation, conjecture, and presumption is an opinion.

Verifiable historical evidence is not.

Ask any historically-aware Jew if he/she would rather die by gas/bullet, or by crucifixion.

That will tell you something.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not one verse in the bible says that.

I agree. Much more than one verse says that. Such as Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:17-18.

The bible specifically states there are two days of judgment and resurrection, not one of each.

Is that what you see here:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Clearly, God has set one day to judge the world, not two. But, you ignore this.

How about here:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The fish in this parable figuratively represent people of "all kinds" that will be separated into two groups, which are "the wicked" and "the righteous", at the end of the age and judged at that time. This clearly proves one judgment day. Why do you ignore passages like this?

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

1 John 4:17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

Verses like these indicate that both believers and unbelievers will be judged on the same day which scripture calls "the day of judgment". Again, you just ignore verses like these.

The verse does not say everyone is judged that day.

Yes, it absolutely does. How many days does it say God has set to judge the world? It says "a day", not "days".

Revelation 20 shows two judgments and resurrections separated by a thousand years.

So you think, but that can't be supported by other scripture, so you need to adjust your understanding of Revelation 20 accordingly so that it doesn't contradict other scripture.

Acts is likely speaking of the final day of resurrection and judgment because it speaks of the "world" being judged as opposed to the dead in Christ being judged as found in the first resurrection and judgment.

Give me a break. You're letting doctrinal bias cloud your vision. Look at the context.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Notice that first Paul indicated that God commands "all people everywhere to repent. That establishes the context of which people Paul is talking about. All people everywhere. Then he said God has set a day when he will "judge the world". The world, taken in context, represents "all people everywhere". And then notice how Paul said "He has given proof of this to "everyone". So, the context here is regarding God's command for all people everywhere to repent because he has set a day to judge all people everywhere and "He has given proof of this to" all people everywhere "by raising him from the dead".

The claim of one resurrection and judgment on the same day goes against what is found in Revelation 19-20, your choice of errant exegesis.

You have chosen to draw conclusions from Revelation 19-20 in isolation from the rest of scripture which is not wise. Your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 contradicts many other scripture passages, but you don't care about that. Your solution is to just twist other scripture to match your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 instead of adjusting your interpretation of Revelation 19-20 to line up with other scripture.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. Much more than one verse says that. Such as Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:17-18.

None of them say that.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Clearly, God has set one day to judge the world, not two.

He doesn't judge the world twice. He judges the dead in Christ, and later judges the world (the unsaved).

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The fish in this parable figuratively represent people of "all kinds" that will be separated into two groups, which are "the wicked" and "the righteous", at the end of the age and judged at that time. This clearly proves one judgment day. Why do you ignore passages like this?

You are ignoring that it shows only the judgment and punishment of the unsaved. That is found in Revelation 20 at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) and lake of fire.

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

1 John 4:17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

Verses like these indicate that both believers and unbelievers will be judged on the same day which scripture calls "the day of judgment". Again, you just ignore verses like these.

You are ignoring that there is a judgment day before the thousand years and one after it in Revelation 20. No one ignores that certain verses addresses each of those days.

Yes, it absolutely does. How many days does it say God has set to judge the world? It says "a day", not "days".

The world is the unsaved. The "world" is not the saved/righteous. Why don't you know that?

Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jn_3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

 

[Truth7t7]

Speculation, conjecture, and presumption is an opinion.

Verifiable historical evidence is not.

Ask any historically-aware Jew if he/she would rather die by gas/bullet, or by crucifixion.

That will tell you something.

Your response is totally irrelevant to the truth of scripture below

The 70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple played no part in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24, "None"

1.) What is near, even at the doors? (The Future Second Coming)

2.) This generation shall not pass till all is fulfilled (A Future Generation) that will be eyewitnesses of the second coming

3.) What is the day and hour no man knows? (The Future Second Coming)

"When Ye Shall See All These Things" Know That The Secong Coming Is Near, Even At The Doors

A Future Generation Unfulfilled!

Matthew 24:33-37KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[covenantee]

Your response is totally irrelevant to the truth of scripture below

The 70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple played no part in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24, "None"

1.) What is near, even at the doors? (The Future Second Coming)

2.) This generation shall not pass till all is fulfilled (A Future Generation) that will be eyewitnesses of the second coming

3.) What is the day and hour no man knows? (The Future Second Coming)

"When Ye Shall See All These Things" Know That The Secong Coming Is Near, Even At The Doors

A Future Generation Unfulfilled!

Matthew 24:33-37KJV
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus answers His disciples' question about these things.

Matthew 24:6-7 is part of that answer.

Matthew 24:6-7 precedes Matthew 24:33-37.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus answers His disciples' question about these things.

Matthew 24:6-7 is part of that answer.

Matthew 24:6-7 precedes Matthew 24:33-37.

Once Again Post #2737

The claimed 70AD literal destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by Roman armies played no part in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24

"The destruction was symbolic" and the temple was the Lord's body at his death, at this time the veil was rent in the Holy Place, the Old Testament Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, "not one stone upon another" gone

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[covenantee]

Once Again Post #2737

The claimed 70AD literal destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by Roman armies played no part in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24

"The destruction was symbolic" and the temple was the Lord's body at his death, at this time the veil was rent in the Holy Place, the Old Testament Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, "not one stone upon another" gone

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus' physical temple was destroyed and resurrected in 30 AD.

Jerusalem's physical temple was destroyed in 70 AD and will never be resurrected.

Jesus' disciples knew the difference.

 

[Timtofly]

Copy/paste my misquote of you, including the post number.

If you are that concerned, you can figure out where you interjected into my point to another poster.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you assume that it has to occur either in heaven or on earth in light of what this says:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

When you look at this verse then you should see that clearly, even if Matthew 25:31-46 was a different judgment than this (it's not), it is not required that it take place in heaven or on earth.

Yes, but in what location does scripture say that we will meet Him when He comes again? In heaven? No. On earth? No. It says we will meet Him "in the air" when He comes again (1 Thess 4:14-17).

Because Jesus is sitting on His throne after a coming to earth, on the earth.

God has been sitting on the GWT since creation. Revelation 20, after creation no longer exist, God is still sitting on that throne. In Matthew 25:31, that is Jesus in Jerusalem sitting on a throne as a son of David to rule the earth.

The New Jerusalem is the new place for God on earth and the GWT is no longer mentioned. Revelation 21:22

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

There is a throne and temple at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus sits on per Matthew 25:31. It is measured in Revelation 11. It is part of the 1,000 year reign. Then it no longer exist in the NHNE. There is no temple in the New Jerusalem. The GWT is past tense, or outside of reality at that point.

 

[Timtofly]

Nothing in his post remotely suggests what you accuse Historicists of teaching. I really don't think you understand fully the tenants of Historicism. If you have any quesitons, please feel free to ask me.

What have I accused them of teaching? I have been defending my position. He has his own agenda he pushes, which is neither here nor there. I don't need to understand where historicism is in error to God's Word. Most live in the past, and nothing can change the past. Some are preterist or partial preterist.

The Second Coming has not happened yet, so it is still the future, no?