The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

He didn't say "all these things must come to pass in 70 A.D." - He said they must come to pass so don't be troubled, right?

You got that right, Jesus never said those things were for 70 A.D. But the doctrines of men you follow like Historicism does try to say that, and that's why they err.

And the subject He was speaking of when He told them to not be troubled was about the event of 'wars and rumors of wars', not the other Signs.

 

[Davy]

"and say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe to the women that sew pillows upon all elbows, and make kerchiefs for the head of [persons of] every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and save souls alive for yourselves?"

It doesn't say anything about flying away to save ones soul, it goes into detail about sewing to hunt souls, (this is apparently referring to some kind of witchcraft)

You are creating your own false teaching by falsely applying this to the rapture when it obviously is about something else.

Lie against the Scriptures much??

Ezek 13:18-20
18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.'
KJV

 

[teamventure]

Lie against the Scriptures much??

Ezek 13:18-20
18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.'
KJV

"Flying away to save ones soul"
&
"Hunting souls to make them fly"
Are not the same thing.

You are trying to pull the rapture out of something that clearly describes a form of witchcraft.
This makes you a false teacher and you are lying about the word the same thing you accused me of doing, not supprised because false teachers always point the finger.

 

[Taken]

You !mentioned
You mentioned using the "process of elimination" in determining the doctrinal evidence of the pre-trib rapture... I'm curious how one would go about that same process of elimination.

Act 3:
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
[20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
[21] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
[22] For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[covenantee]

You got that right, Jesus never said those things were for 70 A.D. But the doctrines of men you follow like Historicism does try to say that, and that's why they err.

And the subject He was speaking of when He told them to not be troubled was about the event of 'wars and rumors of wars', not the other Signs.

Before 70 AD.

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As [theologian Albert] Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

 

[Phoneman777]

You got that right, Jesus never said those things were for 70 A.D. But the doctrines of men you follow like Historicism does try to say that, and that's why they err.

And the subject He was speaking of when He told them to not be troubled was about the event of 'wars and rumors of wars', not the other Signs.

I've been studying Historicism for years and I've never heard anyone rigidly teach all the events of Matthew 24 were fulfilled by 70 A.D. - only that some are a "dual prophecy" with application in 70 A.D. but also at the end of time, such as the "AOD", fulfilled locally in Jerusalem way back then, but worldwide at the end of time.

Because Jesus was answering TWO questions: the one concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the other concerning the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

 

[ewq1938]

"and say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe to the women that sew pillows upon all elbows, and make kerchiefs for the head of [persons of] every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and save souls alive for yourselves?"

It doesn't say anything about flying away to save ones soul

That teaching came from the Shepherd's Chapel.

 

[Timtofly]

I see you avoided answering every question I asked.

I'm interested in 1948 Israel, not 1776.

You know, the subject that you brought up first.

And are now unable to answer questions about.

But unsurprising.

Because a myth has only two types of answers.

False and none.

Then quote the post I responded to and my response, since you hijacked a conversation with another poster, to insert your diatribe.

 

[Timtofly]

I've been studying Historicism for years and I've never heard anyone rigidly teach all the events of Matthew 24 were fulfilled by 70 A.D. - only that some are a "dual prophecy" with application in 70 A.D. but also at the end of time, such as the "AOD", fulfilled locally in Jerusalem way back then, but worldwide at the end of time.

Because Jesus was answering TWO questions: the one concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the other concerning the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

Have you met this poster:

Before 70 AD.

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As [theologian Albert] Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

 

[covenantee]

Then quote the post I responded to and my response

I have no idea what you're talking about.

since you hijacked a conversation with another poster, to insert your diatribe.

There's no such thing as hijacking a conversation. This is an open public forum wherein anyone can respond at any time to any post, without depriving anyone else of the opportunity to do the same.

Haven't you figured that out yet?

 

[Timtofly]

I have no idea what you're talking about.
There's no such thing as hijacking a conversation. This is an open public forum wherein anyone can respond at any time to any post, without depriving anyone else of the opportunity to do the same.

Haven't you figured that out yet?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you saying you think you won a debate, and you don't even know what the whole context was to begin with?

That has been my point all along. You have this debate in your head about something, and you won. Now you don't even understand my point at all?

 

[covenantee]

Are you saying you think you won a debate, and you don't even know what the whole context was to begin with?

That has been my point all along. You have this debate in your head about something, and you won. Now you don't even understand my point at all?

You were the first to reference 1948 Israel. That's what I was debating.

Wasn't that part of your context? If not, why did you reference it?

Are you allowed to reference 1948 Israel, but I'm not?

 

[Timtofly]

You were the first to reference 1948 Israel. That's what I was debating.

Wasn't that part of your context? If not, why did you reference it?

Are you allowed to reference 1948 Israel, but I'm not?

No, you were misquoting me, and changing the subject entirely. Then telling me 1948 had nothing to do with a pre-trib, when I told you to stop making stuff up. Since you rejected to acknowledge that then, I doubt you will now.

You were debating your own point in your own head. Your point has never had anything to do with my post. Did Israel become a nation in 1948, or not? Are there humans alive right now, who were of age to see and understand that point? How old would they be today?

 

[covenantee]

No, you were misquoting me

Copy/paste my misquote of you, including the post number.

 

[Truth7t7]

Before 70 AD.

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As [theologian Albert] Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

70AD played no part in fulfillment of Luke chapter 21, Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are future events unfulfilled

 

[Truth7t7]

Now you don't even understand my point at all?

Which is 90% of the time with me on your postings

 

[Truth7t7]

I've been studying Historicism for years and I've never heard anyone rigidly teach all the events of Matthew 24 were fulfilled by 70 A.D. - only that some are a "dual prophecy" with application in 70 A.D. but also at the end of time, such as the "AOD", fulfilled locally in Jerusalem way back then, but worldwide at the end of time.

Because Jesus was answering TWO questions: the one concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the other concerning the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

No such thing as dual fulfillment seen in Matthew chapter 24, the Roman armies and 70AD played no part in fulfillment

The claimed 70AD literal destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by Roman armies played no part in fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24

The destruction was symbolic, and the temple was the Lord's body at his death, at this time the veil was rent in the Holy Place, the Old Testament Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, "not one stone upon another" gone

John 2:18-22KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[teamventure]

That teaching came from the Shepherd's Chapel.

Thanks for the heads up.
I only posted the scripture and didn't realize it was from the Shepherds Chapel.
But scripture is scripture. Here is the same passage right from my Bible app:

Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD ; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD .
Ezekiel 13:20‭-‬21 KJV

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for the heads up.
I only posted the scripture and didn't realize it was from the Shepherds Chapel.

The scripture is not from the Chapel, the teaching that it is speaking of the Pre-trib rapture is from there.

 

[teamventure]

The scripture is not from the Chapel, the teaching that it is speaking of the Pre-trib rapture is from there.

Oh my, that is very confusing.
Lots of weird stuff out there.