The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

How do you see the sheep/goats judgment? Is this the judgment of the nations when Jesus returns, same as in Joel 3?

Do you see the sheep/goats judgment the same as the great white throne judgment?

Much love!

That's a Jewish idea that the dividing of the sheep/goats is about Gentile nations.

In John 10, who was Lord Jesus pointing as His sheep?

Thus the sheep in Matthew 25 represent His elect faithful that wait for His coming. The goats of course represent the children of darkness, followers of Satan, these...

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
KJV

Also, one needs to remember that just because Lord Jesus did not describe His future Millennial reign of a "thousand years" with His elect, as written in Revelation 20, that does not mean those goats on the left-hand immediately go into the "lake of fire" on the day of His coming.

 

[The Light]

​

Yes, let's find out who confirms the covenant and who is incapable of making a covenant:

"Behold, I send My messenger (John the Baptist) and he shall prepare the way before Me. And the LORD Whom ye seek (Jesus) shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, Whom ye delight in, behold He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts". - Malachi

"I the Lord have called Thee (Jesus) in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant to the people, for a light to teh Gentiles." - Isaiah

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises (of New Covenant salvation in Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV) made unto the fathers." - Romans 15

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great (New Covenant) salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Jesus, for 3 1/2 years in Person) and then was confirmed to us by them that heard Him (the disciples, for the remaining 3 1/2 years)." - Hebrews

"...and He (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." Daniel

"For this is My blood of the New (Covenant) Testament which is shed for many..." - Matthew uses the same word "many" as Daniel
​

Can an agent of Satan make a covenant with God's people?

"Will he (Satan, animalified as "Leviathan") make a covenant with thee?" - Job​

Thanks. Been years since I have seen this position. Ponder, I will.

 

[Davy]

Actually, the punishments laid out in Leviticus 26 have an end, and when you do the math, that end was in 1948.

Much love!

But really the thing he doesn't know about, is God's promise of 1 Kings 11 that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, and because He chose to put His name there.

That one tribe is represented by the tribe of Judah. A small remnant of Jews never ever actually left Jerusalem, but went through all the different captivities and sieges of Jerusalem. The majority of Jews there were scattered, but not absolutely every one of them. So God has kept His promise to always leave one tribe at Jerusalem, and that through all their generations.

And per God's prophecy in Jeremiah 24, the 1948 creation of the nation of Israel again in the middle east, with many Jews returning as He promised, was fulfilled. God said He would not remove them again. So if that never happens again in the future, then it will be certain that the Jeremiah 24 prophecy was fulfilled with the large return in 1948.

 

[Phoneman777]

That little sliver of Land acquiesced to Israelites as their Home State, is not Gods foretold gathering of Israel, but I do believe it is a pre-curser of sorts.
I know you do not see a pending 7 years of Tribulation, Yet that is 2/3
(Seals, Trumps) Judgements expressly upon Israel and Reconciliation time for Israel. And the last (Vials) upon those who participated or cheered on the years of Persecutions Israel (the People) have endured for centuries. Ie Gods Vengeance.

I prefer to utilize a prophetic timeline which contains the principle that the vision of a prophet begins in the day of the prophet and parallels the future to the end of time. The main reason for this is Daniel 8's prophecy of "unto 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" and lo and behold, our High Priest Jesus is depicted in Revelation as ministering in both the Holy Place and Most Holy Place where this very cleansing took place, which is the key to the whole thing.

Therefore the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets all parallel each other and describe the religious, political, and militaristic influence on the church through the era between the First and Second Advent. Typical Historicist interpretation which I find infinitely more accurate than the Jesuit Futurist version which I think is plagued with inconsistencies and ignored problematic issues.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No matter how you slice it, this passage does not say the church will be present during the tribulation period.

Much love!

That’s not true. The Thessalonians we’re going through tribulation and “truths” idea that the passage is linked to us going through it holds true based upon what the Thessalonians believed. Paul consistently taught in various scripture the church would endure tribulations. We are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Paul told them, though they were enduring tribulations through persecution, imprisonment, flogging and martyrdom that the day they longed for had not yet come. There was 2 prerequisites (no immanence). Understanding why Paul was having that conversation with them proves “truths” idea.

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks. Been years since I have seen this position. Ponder, I will.

Thanks for not throwing any eggs LOL I'm sure Truth7t7 will be along any minute to throw them for you LOLOL

 

[Phoneman777]

That little sliver of Land acquiesced to Israelites as their Home State, is not Gods foretold gathering of Israel, but I do believe it is a pre-curser of sorts.
I know you do not see a pending 7 years of Tribulation, Yet that is 2/3
(Seals, Trumps) Judgements expressly upon Israel and Reconciliation time for Israel. And the last (Vials) upon those who participated or cheered on the years of Persecutions Israel (the People) have endured for centuries. Ie Gods Vengeance.

Yes, that sliver is hardly a "restoration" of any sorts...it's like the mayor of NYC setting up a few homeless tents are ground zero and calling it a "restoration of the twin towers".

 

[Phoneman777]

I realize that. To me it's sad.

Much love!

Sad that I consider you a stand up guy? Why?

 

[Phoneman777]

Why did Daniel write "after the 69 weeks", instead of during the 70th week?

Much love!

I guess he figured people wouldn't have to be told that the 70th Week comes after the 69th? I mean, he plainly states what would happen during the 70th Week, and it all came to pass:

- He would confirm the covenant of grace with "many" for one week - the 70th - which Hebrews says He accomplished at first in Person and then through His disciples. Jesus said at the Last Supper His blood of the New Covenant is shed "for many", the same words Daniel uses.

- Messiah would be cut off but not for Himself.

- the sacrifices and oblations would cease (to mean anything) and was signified by the supernatural ripping of the veil.

 

[marks]

That's a Jewish idea that the dividing of the sheep/goats is about Gentile nations.

It's what Jesus said.

Matthew 25:31-32 LITV
31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32) And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

You don't have to be Jewish to believe His words.

Much love!

 

[marks]

represent His elect faithful that wait for His coming

No, these are the gentiles not gathers as "elect" when Jesus comes to sit on His throne.

This is prophecy, isn't it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That’s not true. The Thessalonians we’re going through tribulation and “truths” idea that the passage is linked to us going through it holds true based upon what the Thessalonians believed. Paul consistently taught in various scripture the church would endure tribulations. We are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Paul told them, though they were enduring tribulations through persecution, imprisonment, flogging and martyrdom that the day they longed for had not yet come. There was 2 prerequisites (no immanence). Understanding why Paul was having that conversation with them proves “truths” idea.

Of course we will have tribulations, Jesus said it, there's no question about that. But just as those from generations before us, if we are gone at the time, we won't go through that final week, whether by death, or rapture. If you aren't here, you aren't here. But naturally we are all subject to whatever tribulations occur in our lives.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sad that I consider you a stand up guy? Why?

Sad that you talk about others the way you do, and without any regard for it. Hey, it's no skin off my nose!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I guess he figured people wouldn't have to be told that the 70th Week comes after the 69th? I mean, he plainly states what would happen during the 70th Week, and it all came to pass:

I say, pay attention to all these little details.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

You mean like "Ellen G. Whites" false doctrine of "Soul Sleep", nobody goes to "Hell Fire", they just sleep in the grave?

Why do you constantly attribute doctrines that were held by Protestants prior to the 19th century as belonging to EGW, as if they began with her?

Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

Your dishonesty has become too much, so I bid you ado.

 

[covenantee]

Actually, that's not true about every English Bible version. I believe the Geneva Bible translated that as "departure".

Still, that IS what the word means, it's how it was used in other Greek writings, notably, Aristophanes (the Classical Greek equivalent to Shakespear) used it in his play, The Birds, to describe two men's plan to "fly up to the bird city in the sky", their "apostasia". Interesting, isn't it?

Much love!

The Geneva Bible is a Reformation bible, pre-dating dispensationalism's rapture by more than two centuries.

To a man, the Reformers recognized themselves to be in mortal spiritual combat with the antichrist of the apostasized papacy. One can only imagine their guffaws had the idea of a rapture appeared.

The apostasia of Scripture is falling away, not flying away.

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually, the punishments laid out in Leviticus 26 have an end, and when you do the math, that end was in 1948.

Much love!

Isaiah 5 and Matthew 15 tell a different tale: they speak of total end to Israel as a chosen people, with Romans 11 limited to individual restoration of "broken branches" not an entire "pleasant plant" national restoration, which dried up and blew away, according to Isaiah and Matthew.

 

[Taken]

I prefer to utilize a prophetic timeline which contains the principle that the vision of a prophet begins in the day of the prophet and parallels the future to the end of time. The main reason for this is Daniel 8's prophecy of "unto 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" and lo and behold, our High Priest Jesus is depicted in Revelation as ministering in both the Holy Place and Most Holy Place where this very cleansing took place, which is the key to the whole thing.

Therefore the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets all parallel each other and describe the religious, political, and militaristic influence on the church through the era between the First and Second Advent. Typical Historicist interpretation which I find infinitely more accurate than the Jesuit Futurist version which I think is plagued with inconsistencies and ignored problematic issues.

The big picture (IMO), regarding myself gets convoluted with all the man-devised terms, my preference being what is in Scripture.
Scripture is full of this day, these days, those days, that day, specific in context, and the necessary cross referencing.
Always being specifics of who is scanning, who is studying, what, rarely IMO are on the same page or depth, yet trying to have a conversation with others easily gets off kilter.
I like the basics for any particular topic I choose to study;
Who, What, When, Why, Where...(probably the most productive highlight, that seems as days gone by, once taught in US schools.)

Flat out, I do believe Gods anger is kindling, and His Tribulations (judgements) and His Wrath (reaction to His anger) will soon be unleashed From Heaven upon the Earth and it’s inhabitants.

Flat out, I do believe inasmuch as God SAVED (Noah, ie 8 persons), during Gods First Great Tribulation (via LIFTING them UP off the face of the earth,) While God destroyed the Earth and its inhabitants.
So also Shall God LIFT UP off the face of the Earth, the Converted, Before Gods Second and Last Great Tribulation.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Phoneman777]

Well, you did not really describe the question Jesus' disciples asked Him, which is about the day of His coming LINKED with the END of the world. You see, that is NOT about ANY event that happened back in 70 A.D.

And here is what your post said (#1890), and I quote you:


What you explained, especially in those statements I put in red, is one of the fallacies of thinking by both of men's traditions called Preterism and Historicism. They both believe that much of Christ's Olivet discourse Signs were fulfilled in 70 A.D., when they were not actually.

Men's seminary doctrines of Preterism and Historicism try to use the idea of the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple when the Roman army under Titus came upon the Jews there, implying that is when that 'not one stone standing atop another' prophecy by Jesus was fulfilled.

They also err like you did, with implying the "abomination of desolation" was then fulfilled by the Romans also, when it was not.

The Real Facts:
1. It is very... easy to see today, there are still MANY HUGE STONES standing at the area of the Temple Mount in today's Jerusalem, even the Islamic Dome of the Rock is there upon that Temple Mount. And the Western Wall of the old Temple complex is still standing there too today, the orthodox Jews pray standing at it, called the Wailing Wall. Zechariah 14 reveals that when Lord Jesus returns, His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, and a great valley is formed in that area, burying those stones after they are cast down. That has yet to happen. So just because of the still standing Western Wall huge stones, that belays any idea that 'one stone atop another' is a dual prophecy.

2. Same thing with the "abomination of desolation" prophecy. That event specifically is set for the very end during the "great tribulation". Antiochus IV served as a 'type', but still he did not fulfill all the Daniel prophecy about the final Antichrist. The event Jesus connected it for the end is about a false one that is come to power in Jerusalem using peace. Antiochus IV didn't use peace, he used an army. So there's several little differences that shows those parameters of the prophecy have yet to happen.

3. The Romans never got control of the temple in 70 A.D., so they never accomplished the "abomination of desolation" prophecy either. The temple burned down before they could get possession of it (per the Jewish historian Josephus). The "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, not a destroyed one, and with sacrifices going on, showing the re-establishing of the old covenant by the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem.

Let's dispense with Preterism and focus on Historicism. What's your first point about Historicism which you find problematic regarding Matthew 24? We can deal with that, then move to the next, shall we?

 

[Taken]

Yes, that sliver is hardly a "restoration" of any sorts...it's like the mayor of NYC setting up a few homeless tents are ground zero and calling it a "restoration of the twin towers".

Ha, right.