The Pre-Trib Rapture

[The Light]

At the beginning, God's offer of the kingdom was still intact, and had Israel received Jesus at a national level, then the gentiles would have come to know Christ through Israel. With Israel's final rejection (Acts 28), that ended, and the Gospel went directly to the Gentiles.

People reject any mention of dispensations, failing to realize even the difference between offering daily sacrifices and not offering daily sacrifices is a change in the dispensation. But without being willing to recognize and acknowledge these things, well, it's just not going to make sense, so people have to figure out a way to try to make sense of it all.

Much love!

God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time, meaning the plan was for the Jews to be the first harvest. Since they served other Gods the Gentiles would be the first harvest. Hence the pretribulation rapture. The fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

 

[The Light]

I have to respectfully disagree about the 70 Weeks being future. Daniel says Messiah is cut off "after" the 69th Week which must be during the 70th Week because His baptism 3 1/2 years prior marks the end of the 69 Weeks and the beginning of the 70th.

This cannot be correct because the same one the confirms the covenant is the one who breaks the covenant in the midst of the week.

 

[Taken]

Sometimes I find the most difficult part of these discussions is trying to get people to acknowledge facts about the Bible that are inconvenient to them. If we're going to have these discussions, we have to be willing to honestly look at all of it.

Much love!

Inconvenient truths, yes. Everything one needs to know, to Stand WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God, all rolled up in Scripture.

What I see repeated over and over...
* Men state their beliefs, and an other will re-state what they did not say, then the other chooses a Scripture that applies to what they re-stated, then accuse the negative Scripture applies to them.

It’s a weird conniving event of deceit.

 

[Phoneman777]

That would rank as an "abomination of desecration" of the Word.

I can't understand why anyone would doubt the Papacy as "Antichrist" when that's exactly what they claim to be: they who "take the place of Christ". I've shared videos, citations, their own blasphemous words which establishes their position as the depository and dispenser of a Catholic brand of forgiveness which they themselves claim finds absolutely no root in the shed blood of Jesus.

Yet, professing Christians not only refuse to consider this, but choose to put their implicit trust in Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism, as if an organization which has failed for 1,500 years to gain a proper position on the most elementary topic of Scripture - salvation by grace through faith - can be trusted to accurately explain the eschatological "meat" of God's Word.

 

[Phoneman777]

Maybe you should read Matthew 24:3 again.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

Their question shows they understood the destruction event Jesus was pointing to with not one stone atop another; they associated that destruction with the day of His future 2nd coming at the end of this world. And they did not say... comings plural. They pointed there to a singular coming by Christ, at the END of this world.

Why do I need to read it when I accurately described it?

Question (1) was "when shall these things (destruction of the temple) be, and (2) was what shall be the sign of the Second Coming/End of the world, which happen simultaneously. According to 2 Peter 3:10 which says when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, there won't be 7 more minutes let alone 7 more years.

 

[Phoneman777]

Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was the sign that the Second Coming is at the door.

God had nothing to do with the events of 1948. Proof: The promise that God would gather the Israelites back to the land after He's scattered them for disobedience was always dependent upon one important condition: repentance. You will search in vain for any Biblical occasion where God gathered an impenitent Israelite nation back to the land.

Have the people who occupy the land of ancient Israel ever repented and accepted Jesus? No, they call Him "son of a whore" and "the Great Imposter".

 

[Phoneman777]

Could you provide any scripture that identifies the Papacy as the Beast?

Absolutely! I could share with you the same arguments the great Protestant Reformers preached from Scripture for over 3 centuries from the time of Luther (actually, it started before that) until the mid-19th century when Protestantism began to give up their protest and entertain Jesuit eschatological ideas until now these lies dominate supposed "protestant" thought.

Zwingle marched into Scotland and preached Protestant Historicism and almost overnight the entire nation turned away from Catholicism to the truth.

 

[Phoneman777]

It’s 105 degrees, not hugging anyone today!
And yes, Jesus’ Doctrine!

Another reason to avoid hellfire at all costs

 

[Truth7t7]

It's not there. The passage does not tell us the church will be present at that time.

Much love!

Of course Paul is writing to the Church at Thessalonica "YOU"

Of course it states the (Man Of Sin) will be revealed to the Church Paul is speaking to

You don't want to acknowledge this scriptural truth, because it destroys your pre-trib rapture

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Taken]

God had nothing to do with the events of 1948. Proof: The promise that God would gather the Israelites back to the land after He's scattered them for disobedience was always dependent upon one important condition: repentance. You will search in vain for any Biblical occasion where God gathered an impenitent Israelite nation back to the land.

Have the people who occupy the land of ancient Israel ever repented and accepted Jesus? No, they call Him "son of a whore" and "the Great Imposter".

That little sliver of Land acquiesced to Israelites as their Home State, is not Gods foretold gathering of Israel, but I do believe it is a pre-curser of sorts.
I know you do not see a pending 7 years of Tribulation, Yet that is 2/3
(Seals, Trumps) Judgements expressly upon Israel and Reconciliation time for Israel. And the last (Vials) upon those who participated or cheered on the years of Persecutions Israel (the People) have endured for centuries. Ie Gods Vengeance.

 

[marks]

No way, bro. Not my opinion at all.

I realize that. To me it's sad.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And Yes, Lord Jesus CERTAINLY DID speak of the idea of His coming and gathering of His Church. It is written in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture emphatically. And that perfectly aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Jesus' coming and gathering of His Church.

How do you see the sheep/goats judgment? Is this the judgment of the nations when Jesus returns, same as in Joel 3?

Do you see the sheep/goats judgment the same as the great white throne judgment?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have to respectfully disagree about the 70 Weeks being future. Daniel says Messiah is cut off "after" the 69th Week which must be during the 70th Week because His baptism 3 1/2 years prior marks the end of the 69 Weeks and the beginning of the 70th.

Why did Daniel write "after the 69 weeks", instead of during the 70th week?

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Another reason to avoid hellfire at all costs

That is actual, but feels hotter, as if, at that point, hot is just hot.
Still have daily things to do outside, but Yipes energy drained!
Could be a sneak peek at hellfire...Yuck.
Already prepared for a different residency. :)

 

[marks]

Of course Paul is writing to the Church at Thessalonica "YOU"

Of course it states the (Man Of Sin) will be revealed to the Church Paul is speaking to

You don't want to acknowledge this scriptural truth, because it destroys your pre-trib rapture

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

No matter how you slice it, this passage does not say the church will be present during the tribulation period.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

Another reason to avoid hellfire at all costs

You mean like "Ellen G. Whites" false doctrine of "Soul Sleep", nobody goes to "Hell Fire", they just sleep in the grave?

 

[marks]

God had nothing to do with the events of 1948. Proof: The promise that God would gather the Israelites back to the land after He's scattered them for disobedience was always dependent upon one important condition: repentance. You will search in vain for any Biblical occasion where God gathered an impenitent Israelite nation back to the land.

Have the people who occupy the land of ancient Israel ever repented and accepted Jesus? No, they call Him "son of a whore" and "the Great Imposter".

Actually, the punishments laid out in Leviticus 26 have an end, and when you do the math, that end was in 1948.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Why do I need to read it when I accurately described it?

Question (1) was "when shall these things (destruction of the temple) be, and (2) was what shall be the sign of the Second Coming/End of the world, which happen simultaneously. According to 2 Peter 3:10 which says when Jesus comes as a thief in the night, there won't be 7 more minutes let alone 7 more years.

Well, you did not really describe the question Jesus' disciples asked Him, which is about the day of His coming LINKED with the END of the world. You see, that is NOT about ANY event that happened back in 70 A.D.

And here is what your post said (#1890), and I quote you:

Q. How many questions did the disciples ask Jesus?
A. Two - when would be the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world.

The only way to come to a proper understanding of end times prophecy is to realize Jesus answered both questions simultaneously in Matthew 24, which means it is dual prophecy where certain elements have a local fulfillment in 70 A.D. but also a worldwide fulfillment at the end of the world.

The "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled in 70 A.D. but also will have an end time application...the "sign of the coming of the Son of man is not dual, and will be fulfilled only in the end.

What you explained, especially in those statements I put in red, is one of the fallacies of thinking by both of men's traditions called Preterism and Historicism. They both believe that much of Christ's Olivet discourse Signs were fulfilled in 70 A.D., when they were not actually.

Men's seminary doctrines of Preterism and Historicism try to use the idea of the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple when the Roman army under Titus came upon the Jews there, implying that is when that 'not one stone standing atop another' prophecy by Jesus was fulfilled.

They also err like you did, with implying the "abomination of desolation" was then fulfilled by the Romans also, when it was not.

The Real Facts:
1. It is very... easy to see today, there are still MANY HUGE STONES standing at the area of the Temple Mount in today's Jerusalem, even the Islamic Dome of the Rock is there upon that Temple Mount. And the Western Wall of the old Temple complex is still standing there too today, the orthodox Jews pray standing at it, called the Wailing Wall. Zechariah 14 reveals that when Lord Jesus returns, His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, and a great valley is formed in that area, burying those stones after they are cast down. That has yet to happen. So just because of the still standing Western Wall huge stones, that belays any idea that 'one stone atop another' is a dual prophecy.

2. Same thing with the "abomination of desolation" prophecy. That event specifically is set for the very end during the "great tribulation". Antiochus IV served as a 'type', but still he did not fulfill all the Daniel prophecy about the final Antichrist. The event Jesus connected it for the end is about a false one that is come to power in Jerusalem using peace. Antiochus IV didn't use peace, he used an army. So there's several little differences that shows those parameters of the prophecy have yet to happen.

3. The Romans never got control of the temple in 70 A.D., so they never accomplished the "abomination of desolation" prophecy either. The temple burned down before they could get possession of it (per the Jewish historian Josephus). The "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem, not a destroyed one, and with sacrifices going on, showing the re-establishing of the old covenant by the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem.

 

[Phoneman777]

This cannot be correct because the same one the confirms the covenant is the one who breaks the covenant in the midst of the week.

Yes, let's find out who confirms the covenant and who is incapable of making a covenant:

"Behold, I send My messenger (John the Baptist) and he shall prepare the way before Me. And the LORD Whom ye seek (Jesus) shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, Whom ye delight in, behold He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts". - Malachi

"I the Lord have called Thee (Jesus) in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant to the people, for a light to teh Gentiles." - Isaiah

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises (of New Covenant salvation in Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV) made unto the fathers." - Romans 15

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great (New Covenant) salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Jesus, for 3 1/2 years in Person) and then was confirmed to us by them that heard Him (the disciples, for the remaining 3 1/2 years)." - Hebrews

"...and He (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..." Daniel

"For this is My blood of the New (Covenant) Testament which is shed for many..." - Matthew uses the same word "many" as Daniel
​

Can an agent of Satan make a covenant with God's people?

"Will he (Satan, animalified as "Leviathan") make a covenant with thee?" - Job​

 

[The Light]

Absolutely! I could share with you the same arguments the great Protestant Reformers preached from Scripture for over 3 centuries from the time of Luther (actually, it started before that) until the mid-19th century when Protestantism began to give up their protest and entertain Jesuit eschatological ideas until now these lies dominate supposed "protestant" thought.

Zwingle marched into Scotland and preached Protestant Historicism and almost overnight the entire nation turned away from Catholicism to the truth.

LOL. OK. Would you provide scriptural support for these comments?