The Pre-Trib Rapture

[The Light]

No they did not.

Uhhhhhhh.....Yeah they did.

Firstly, Paul wrote over and over that we are waiting for Christ’s coming.

Here's what Paul also wrote. The Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trump of God is the voice of God

Rev 1
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The trump of God is the voice of God. It is not the last trump as I doubt it will be the last time He speaks.

Secondly, Christ himself said he’ll be coming after the tribulation.

Yes Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation....in one coming.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you not see that the LORD HIMSELF comes in one coming and HE WILL SEND HIS ANGELS in another coming? Can't be the same coming.

How something so simple can be complicated by some people is amazing.

You are correct. It is simple. But why do you read past all the details.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Yes, Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation in one coming. But why does He tell us that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. All these things are things that happen BEFORE the end of the tribulation. He comes more than once. It's simple.

 

[Phoneman777]

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal "Future" Weeks Explained

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Stop running away from the question and step up to the challenge.'

You assert that Jesuit Futurism pre-dates the mid-16th century Jesuits and goes all the way back to the 3rd century. Defend your assertions:

Where's Iranaeus' or any other church father's documentation about:

• a 2000+ year "gap" between the 69th and 70th Week???
• the "last seven years of tribulation"???
• a "7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews" brokered by the Antichrist???
• the "breaking this peace treaty 3 1/2 years into it"???
• an Armageddon war breaking out on the heels of this treaty dissolution???

And to absolutely prove beyond the shadow of doubt Futurism did not exist before the 16th century, all ECFs who had anything to say about it - including Iranaeus - taught that the Roman Empire was the "restrainer" of 2 Thessalonians 2 preventing the rise of Antichrist and that it would arise immediately after Rome fell, not over 1,800+ years later.

DEFEND YOUR ASSERTIONS.

WHERE'S THE ECF DOCUMENTATION DETAILING THE BULLETS ABOVE?

EITHER PROVE THESE BULLETS ARE TO BE FOUND ANY TIME BEFORE THE 16TH CENTURY OR RETRACT YOUR ASSERTION.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have nothing to do with Jesuit futurism as you falsely claim, nor do I believe in or follow the false teachings of Roman Catholicism

However you follow the false prophetess in Ellen G. White in 7th Day Adventism, and her 2,000 self proclaimed dreams and visions

Not only do you follow Jesuit Futurism, but you defend Papal eschatological bulldookey so vehemently that Rome is likely to call you any day now to see if you're on their payroll.

 

[Phoneman777]

You have been answered in post 1848 above

I've been watching for you to explain where all these are found written anywhere by anyone before the Jesuits authored them during the mid-16th century:

• a 2000+ year "gap" between the 69th and 70th Week???
• the "last seven years of tribulation"???
• a "7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews" brokered by the Antichrist???
• the "breaking this peace treaty 3 1/2 years into it"???
• an Armageddon war breaking out on the heels of this treaty dissolution???

Post 1848 offers NOTHING by way of documentation containing the above bullets that predates the Jesuits of the mid-16th century. You've got a big mouth and I've just shut it up, else you'd have posted the historic references already. Checkmate, my foolish Jesuit friend, checkmate it is.

 

[Keraz]

The pretense that you are a Biblical teacher is not Biblical.

No; I am a messenger. As my name means.
That many are unable to understand the Message, is not my concern. It is up to every individual to ascertain the truth for themselves.

 

[Truth7t7]

Exactly. This is Paul teaching about the rapture TO THE CLOUDS. What you consider the second coming is when Jesus comes to the earth with the armies from heaven. The marriage supper of the lamb is in heaven where those raptured attend.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

Stop running away from the question and step up to the challenge.'

You assert that Jesuit Futurism pre-dates the mid-16th century Jesuits and goes all the way back to the 3rd century. Defend your assertions:

Where's Iranaeus' or any other church father's documentation about:

• a 2000+ year "gap" between the 69th and 70th Week???
• the "last seven years of tribulation"???
• a "7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews" brokered by the Antichrist???
• the "breaking this peace treaty 3 1/2 years into it"???
• an Armageddon war breaking out on the heels of this treaty dissolution???

And to absolutely prove beyond the shadow of doubt Futurism did not exist before the 16th century, all ECFs who had anything to say about it - including Iranaeus - taught that the Roman Empire was the "restrainer" of 2 Thessalonians 2 preventing the rise of Antichrist and that it would arise immediately after Rome fell, not over 1,800+ years later.

DEFEND YOUR ASSERTIONS.

WHERE'S THE ECF DOCUMENTATION DETAILING THE BULLETS ABOVE?

EITHER PROVE THESE BULLETS ARE TO BE FOUND ANY TIME BEFORE THE 16TH CENTURY OR RETRACT YOUR ASSERTION.

I don't believe in a 2,000 year gap, I clearly posted that Daniel's 70 weeks are "Future"

I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation, it will be 3.5 years, and it will begin when the future antichrist/beast is revealed in Jerusalem

Armageddon will take place immediately after the 3.5 year tribulation, that will see the second coming and destruction of this earth by fire (The End)

 

[Taken]

No; I am a messenger. As my name means.
That many are unable to understand the Message, is not my concern. It is up to every individual to ascertain the truth for themselves.

A true messenger of God, doesn’t pretend EVERY WORD of GOD applies the same to EVERY earthly person.

You speaking directly to me with your “supposed” messages, AS IF, you are UNAWARE, telling a person what that person as already accomplished, needs to be said to them.

 

[Davy]

No, I did not call you or Jesus a Liar.
I already acknowledged Matt’s account is a brief.
Tribulation of THOSE days...immediately the sun is darkened.
Then....immediately what? It doesn’t say.
It says Then appears the sign of the Son of Man...
It’s not immediate....it’s is recorded Rev 14;14
....

I've already been over this with YOU, and you still refuse to heed what Lord Jesus said as written. The Scripture DOES use the idea of 'immediately AFTER the tribulation', so Jesus was very plain with what He said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV



Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

 

[Helen]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

depends what you believe that ‘ rapture ‘ is. :)

Just don’t hold you breath and wait fir it…I believe it is a spiritual encounter, not a physical one.
We each should be seeing Him now..it should be ‘where we live and move and have our being’
We should all be ‘in rapture now’ …then we are always ‘awake and ready ‘. Our lights burning brightly and much oil in our ‘lamp’.
My two cents ..x

 

[Davy]

depends what you believe that ‘ rapture ‘ is. :)

Just don’t hold you breath and wait fir it…I believe it is a spiritual encounter, not a physical one.
We each should be seeing Him now..it should be ‘where we live and move and have our being’
We should all be ‘in rapture now’ …then we are always ‘awake and ready ‘. Our lights burning brightly and much oil in our ‘lamp’.
My two cents ..x

Of course that view means men's leaven doctrine of Full Preterism, thinking that Jesus' coming is just a spiritual event.

Full Preterism, a seminary leaven doctrine by men, does not believe in a bodily physical return by Jesus Christ. They instead believe His return is spiritual, which of course goes directly CONTRARY to God's written Word.

 

[Taken]

I've already been over this with YOU, and you still refuse to heed what Lord Jesus said as written. The Scripture DOES use the idea of 'immediately AFTER the tribulation', so Jesus was very plain with what He said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I have acknowledge your short-sightedness.
Gods Tribulation is in STAGES...7 seals, 7 trumps, 7 vials

Matt 24:
Speaks of a PORTION of Gods Tribulation.
Expressly revealing...
...Tribulation OF THOSE DAYS.

Revelations details the Tribulation of “THOSE DAYS” is the SEALS.
Seal one opened.
Seal two opened.
Seal three opened.
Seal four opened.
Seal five opened.
Seal six opened.

End of Tribulation OF THOSE DAYS.
Immediately after Seal six is opened...
The Consequence of opening the Seal six...

IMMEDIATELY BOOM a GREAT EARTHQUAKE.

Any clue? Ever lived during the time of a great earthquake?
If not, you can read about Mt. St Helen’s great eruption in the 1980’s and its ash spewn out and upward CAUSING THE SUN LIGHT TO BECOME PREVENTED, and THE SKY DARKENED. And if you study about BLOOD moons, you would discover, the MOON appears RED during particular LUNAR Eclipses ...

IF, you read Scripture and properly understood what it SAYS...
It says...immediately after the 6th Seal is opened, a Great Earthquake will occur....( and for a person who has NOT experienced or learned about Great Earthquakes.....A Great Earthquake TEMPORARILY BLOCKS the Sun! )

If you did KNOW of Mt. St.Helens Earthquake...and SOME HOW DO NOT NOTICE the SUN still shines....the ASH as dissipate and fallen back to earth!

Scripture DOES NOT SAY...then immediately, the Son of Man returns!

AFTER the Earthquake...THEN shall the Son of Man Return...
ALREADY point by point showed you WHEN, “THAT THEN” occurs.
It’s not immediately...There is a whole series of point by point things that occur.....

The 7th seal is opened.
The 1st trump is blown.
The 2nd trump is blown.
The 3rd trump is blown.
The 4th trump is blown.
The 5th trump is blown.
The 6th trump is blown.
The 7th trump is blown.

Rev 14:14 THEN is the Son of Man SEEN sitting on a cloud in the sky.

If you continue to read Scripture out of context, when Scripture says IMMEDIATELY the sky is blackened from an earthquake....and you falsely teach IMMEDIATELY the Son of Man returns...when Scripture reveals...the Son of Man returns WAAAAAY after the 6th seal...
THAT IS YOUR short-sightedness, to NOT know what occurs IMMEDIATELY is the blackening of the Sun, not an IMMEDIATE return of the Son.

Stop embarrassing yourself, and continuing to solicit me to hear you repeat over and over your lack of basic knowledge and then adding your canal (and inaccurate) understanding.

 

[Davy]

I have acknowledge your short-sightedness.

I am not short-sighted BY DECLARING WHAT LORD JESUS SAID IN HIS WORD.

You have been shown, yet you DENY what He said.

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't believe in a 2,000 year gap, I clearly posted that Daniel's 70 weeks are "Future"

Impossible. "Messiah the Prince" was "cut off but not for Himself" on Calvary's Cross "after" the 69th Week which means "during" the 70th Week almost 2,000 years ago when He died for the sins of the world - are you saying Jesus didn't die for our sins yet?

I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation, it will be 3.5 years, and it will begin when the future antichrist/beast is revealed in Jerusalem

Jesuit Futurism teaches Antichrist's rise is still future, too, which is not found anywhere before the Jesuits. Iranaeus and the rest of the ECFs said Antichrist would immediately arise after the "restrainer" which was preventing its rise - Pagan Rome - was "taken out of the way". Why are you sampling from ECFs, history, the Jesuits, the Bible, and clinging to the bits you like and ignoring the rest?

Armageddon will take place immediately after the 3.5 year tribulation, that will see the second coming and destruction of this earth by fire (The End)

Jesuit Futurism says Armageddon takes place after the tribulation too but the Bible says it happens after the 7 Last Plagues. Like I said, you're following totally inconsistent Jesuitical eschatology instead of good ol' Protestant Historicism which completely harmonizes everything. Good gravy, man, you keep proving my point.

Look, I've shown you plenty of inconsistencies with Jesuit Futurism but you can't point to a single inconsistent tenant of Protestant Historicism. For instance, the "man of sin" is no more an individual than Paul's "man of God" who's made perfect by the Word of God is an individual. If you insist the "man of sin" Antichrist is one dude, tell me the name of this "man of God" Paul says is made perfect by "all Scripture...given by inspiration".

 

[Davy]

Impossible. "Messiah the Prince" was "cut off but not for Himself" on Calvary's Cross "after" the 69th Week which means "during" the 70th Week almost 2,000 years ago when He died for the sins of the world - are you saying Jesus didn't die for our sins yet?
Jesuit Futurism teaches Antichrist's rise is still future, too, which is not found anywhere before the Jesuits. Iranaeus and the rest of the ECFs said Antichrist would immediately arise after the "restrainer" which was preventing its rise - Pagan Rome - was "taken out of the way". Why are you sampling from ECFs, history, the Jesuits, the Bible, and clinging to the bits you like and ignoring the rest?
Jesuit Futurism says Armageddon takes place after the tribulation too. Like I said, you're following totally inconsistent Jesuitical eschatology instead of good ol' Protestant Historicism which completely harmonizes everything. Good gravy, man, you keep proving my point.

Look, I've shown you plenty of inconsistencies with Jesuit Futurism but you can't point to a single inconsistent tenant of Protestant Historicism. For instance, the "man of sin" is no more an individual than Paul's "man of God" who's made perfect by the Word of God is an individual. If you insist the "man of sin" Antichrist is one dude, tell me the name of this guy Paul made perfect by "all Scripture...given by inspiration".

More examples of men's seminary leaven fragments added to God's Word, both Futurism and Historicism fall in the ditch.

 

[Phoneman777]

More examples of men's seminary leaven fragments added to God's Word, both Futurism and Historicism fall in the ditch.

I can slice and dice and pick apart Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism, but you can't find a single inconsistency with Protestant Historicism. Step up to the challenge.

 

[marks]

depends what you believe that ‘ rapture ‘ is. :)

Just don’t hold you breath and wait fir it…I believe it is a spiritual encounter, not a physical one.
We each should be seeing Him now..it should be ‘where we live and move and have our being’
We should all be ‘in rapture now’ …then we are always ‘awake and ready ‘. Our lights burning brightly and much oil in our ‘lamp’.
My two cents ..x

I'm not holding my breath! Now is when we live, not some future time.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I can slice and dice and pick apart Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism, but you can't find a single inconsistency with Protestant Historicism. Step up to the challenge.

Sure can, the fallacy of treating Christ's Olivet discourse as if it was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

 

[Davy]

Praying your mental health improves and sending you a bar of soap to fix your mouth.

I'll be sending you a 1st Grade reader to help you with your reading comprehension, since you cannot even READ what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. It's a wonder that anyone listens to you at all, since you cannot even 'see' what the words are on the page in God's written Word. So look for that 1st Grade Reader, like "See Jane run. See Spot run," etc.

 

[Taken]

Maybe add a few names to that distribution list . . .

Much love!

The DIVIDE of Common sense is so glaring.

A) I believe, blah, blah blah...B) no, you believe, blah, blah blah
A) no I do not...B) liar, yes you do believe, blah, blah, blah, and are wrong.

(B) LOL...

A) I believe, blah, blah, blah....B) prove what you believe is so with Scriptural basis.
A) don’t need Scriptural basis, historical this guy, that guy said so. (And this guy, that guy scholars said so).

(A) LOL...

A) I believe, blah, blah, blah....B) I disagree
A) You DENY Gods truth. B) no, I disagree with your understanding.
A) Liar, you Deny Gods truth...B) no, you are a false accuser.
A) I’m reporting you for attacking me...B) LOL, (bubble thought)..crybaby.

(A) LOL...

Hoping an adult is mentally mature to have a civil conversation is one thing. Discovering they are mentally immature AND spiritually immature is as pleasant as hoping for a well done steak and getting a slab of meat that is still mooing, sputtering out sounds, utterly painful to my ears.

Jesus’ one liner sufficiently comes to mind...
(Ofcourse may not be effective for anti-Bible droolers)

John 3:
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Glory to God,
Taken