1st problem with O.S.A.S.

[theefaith]

That's exactly what Jesus meant. In context, Jesus is discussing false prophets and is contrasting a good tree that brings forth good fruit with a bad tree that brings forth bad fruit. (Matthew 7:15-23)

Jesus never knew these people, never entered or made His abode with them and you still think they were saved? Just as in John 17:3, we read - John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent, which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found in a relationship and not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

We receive salvation as a gift through faith. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) but as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him. True disciples of the Master continue.

In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine." Those who do not continue in His word demonstrate that they are not truly disciples of Jesus. Temporarily setting out to be a learner and follower of Christ, but then permanently turning away later when the going gets tough or your expectations are not met, demonstrates that you were not truly His disciple, as with Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

The Holy Spirit enters the moment we believe in Christ unto salvation. (Acts 11:17; 15:8,9; Ephesians 1:13) In John 14:21-23 we find the demonstrative evidence of those who love the Lord. John 14:21 The person who has My commands and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I [too] will love him and will show (reveal, manifest) Myself to him. [I will let Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him.] 22 Judas, not Iscariot, asked Him, Lord, how is it that You will reveal Yourself [make Yourself real] to us and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him. Believers do not keep His commands in order to receive the Holy Spirit but because they have received the Holy Spirit.

This is descriptive of unbelievers and not those who are born of God. 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence/descriptive of believers) if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (descriptive of unbelievers)

Absolutely false.

Your eisegesis was laid out.

then all are saved! Yahoo

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus never knew these people, never entered or made His abode with them and you still think they were saved? Just as in John 17:3, we read - John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent, which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found in a relationship and not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

That's easily cleared up with John 14:21-23

We receive salvation as a gift through faith. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

I see that you preach the exact same total nonsense on this topic as Matthew G. What a coincidence. The verse clearly states that Faith is a gift from God, but you are welcome to keep feeding your delusions otherwise. Ephesians 2:8

 

[mailmandan]

That's easily cleared up with John 14:21-23 I see that you preach the exact same total nonsense on this topic as Matthew G. What a coincidence. The verse clearly states that Faith is a gift from God, but you are welcome to keep feeding your delusions otherwise. Ephesians 2:8

Your eisegesis clears up nothing. Why is it so important for you to believe that faith is a gift, but not salvation?

 

[mailmandan]

then all are saved! Yahoo

Not all, but only those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)

 

[theefaith]

Not all, but only those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)

who’s faith does this verse refer too?

 

[theefaith]

Your eisegesis clears up nothing. Why is it so important for you to believe that faith is a gift, but not salvation?

where does it say faith alone!

 

[GEN2REV]

Your eisegesis clears up nothing. Why is it so important for you to believe that faith is a gift, but not salvation?

Why is it so important to represent God, and His Word, accurately and honestly?

Because it's exactly what Scripture teaches and those of you who have it backwards are teaching things all out of order and leading people astray.

 

[mailmandan]

who’s faith does this verse refer too?

In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - "receiving the end of YOUR faith--the salvation of your souls.

 

[mailmandan]

where does it say faith alone!

Does Ephesians 2:8 say faith plus something else? Plus works? NO! It's faith "apart from additions or modifications" so it's faith (rightly undrrstood) in Christ alone.

 

[mailmandan]

Why is it so important to represent God, and His Word, accurately and honestly?

Because it's exactly what Scripture teaches and those of you who have it backwards are teaching things all out of order and leading people astray.

Oh the irony.

 

[GEN2REV]

Oh the irony.

And also, along with John 14:21-23 showing that the Spirit only enters once somebody is obeying (the Commandments), we have Acts 5:32 which confirms that the Spirit is given only to those who obey.

"... the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him."
Acts 5:32

And we are to obey as Jesus obeyed; all 10 Commandments.
1 John 2:6
John 15:10

So we:
1. receive Faith as a gift. Ephesians 2:8
2. believe and begin to seek Jesus in the Bible when God draws us to Him through our New Faith in Him. John 6:44
3. we receive eternal/resurrection life through the reading (hearing) of His Words mixed with Faith (John 6:63, John 6:68; Hebrews 4:2)

(This is as far as most Christians go.)

4. we follow Jesus' Way (obey the Commandments) that we have learned from reading The Word.
5. we then receive the Holy Spirit (which fulfills the process of making us like Christ throughout the rest of our lives) based on our obedience, based on our walking in Christ's Ways, based on our emulating Him in our Spirit - we make a way for the Spirit to come into our spirit and to make His home with us. John 14:21-23, Acts 5:32.

So, now you see, reader, that if somebody stops at step 3, they can easily become one of the 'Many' who will say 'Lord, Lord' at the coming of Christ and sadly be rejected.
Matthew 7:23

This is the state of the vast majority of Christianity today due to False Teaching in the church and everywhere that Christianity is discussed by the Wolves who now run all of Christendom in the world at large.

They teach NOT to obey. They teach that NOTHING must be done. They teach that you can NEVER lose your acceptance into heaven; many of which have never even gained acceptance into heaven themselves. Matthew 23:15 They teach that the whole process of salvation is entirely up to us; in our choosing to believe and in our choosing Christ. That is 100% the opposite of what Scripture teaches.

 

[GEN2REV]

JMdan's version of Ephesians 2:8:

And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

Hey look, guys! GotQuestions got this one right!

Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8)

Where does faith come from? | GotQuestions.org

JMdan and friends claim that WE choose Jesus. That WE choose to believe (faith).

Jesus says otherwise.
John 15:16

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

JMdan's version of Ephesians 2:8:
Hey look, guys! GotQuestions got this one right!
Where does faith come from? | GotQuestions.org

JMdan and friends claim that WE choose Jesus. That WE choose to believe (faith).

Jesus says otherwise.
John 15:16

you act surprised that gotquestions was right. ::

 

[GEN2REV]

you act surprised that gotquestions was right. ::

You're very naive if you believe they're right 100% of the time.

They're not God and they're not the Bible.

They're run by man. They're gonna be wrong from time to time no matter what you believe.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You're very naive if you believe they're right 100% of the time.

They're not God and they're not the Bible.

They're run by man. They're gonna be wrong from time to time no matter what you believe.

i never said they were right 100% of the time, but your comment came across like they’re wrong more than they’re right. I was going to correct you on that. ;)

 

[atpollard]

a covenant is a communion of saints sharing in the life of God thru grace, being taught by God not read the Bible for yourself and make you’re diy religion!

EXACTLY!

• Immaculate Conception
• Purgatory
• Petrine Succession
• Queen of Heaven
• Priest vs Leity

Just a partial list of things never taught by God but added by Men in the “diy religion” of the RCC.
Reading the Bible is the only way to learn what GOD said rather than what people say.

 

[mailmandan]

And also, along with John 14:21-23 showing that the Spirit only enters once somebody is obeying (the Commandments), we have Acts 5:32 which confirms that the Spirit is given only to those who obey.

"... the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him."
Acts 5:32

More eisegesis. We do not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) the commandments in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but because we have received the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. So what is the act of obedience that causes us to receive the Holy Spirit? Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:9-10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

And we are to obey as Jesus obeyed; all 10 Commandments.
1 John 2:6
John 15:10

Nobody except Jesus Christ has flawlessly obeyed all 10 commandments. Since the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new covenant, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God has made obsolete the old covenant to put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10) Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

So we:
1. receive Faith as a gift. Ephesians 2:8
2. believe and begin to seek Jesus in the Bible when God draws us to Him through our New Faith in Him. John 6:44
3. we receive eternal/resurrection life through the reading (hearing) of His Words mixed with Faith (John 6:63, John 6:68; Hebrews 4:2)

We receive salvation as a gift. Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted him from the Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. So in that sense only would I call faith a gift, but salvation is THE gift in Ephesians 2:8. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation, we must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

(This is as far as most Christians go.)

"Nominal" Christians don't even make it that far.

4. we follow Jesus' Way (obey the Commandments) that we have learned from reading The Word.

We strive to but we do not flawlessly obey the commandments and that is also not how we are saved. I already caught you bearing false witness against me more than once.

5. we then receive the Holy Spirit (which fulfills the process of making us like Christ throughout the rest of our lives) based on our obedience, based on our walking in Christ's Ways, based on our emulating Him in our Spirit - we make a way for the Spirit to come into our spirit and to make His home with us. John 14:21-23, Acts 5:32.

You are so confused.

So, now you see, reader, that if somebody stops at step 3, they can easily become one of the 'Many' who will say 'Lord, Lord' at the coming of Christ and sadly be rejected.
Matthew 7:23

It's not about step 3 works salvation. Once again, in context, Jesus is talking about false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23) These are not genuine believers who Jesus NEVER knew in Matthew 7:23. These many people were trusting in their works for salvation instead of Christ alone. (Matthew 7:22) Sound familiar?

This is the state of the vast majority of Christianity today due to False Teaching in the church and everywhere that Christianity is discussed by the Wolves who now run all of Christendom in the world at large.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

They teach NOT to obey. They teach that NOTHING must be done. They teach that you can NEVER lose your acceptance into heaven; many of which have never even gained acceptance into heaven themselves. Matthew 23:15 They teach that the whole process of salvation is entirely up to us; in our choosing to believe and in our choosing Christ. That is 100% the opposite of what Scripture teaches.

So salvation according to you is received based on the merits of our obedience/works and is also maintained by works instead of being based on Christ's finished work of redemption and received through faith in Christ alone. What you teach is 100% opposite of what Scripture teaches. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9 etc..). Works-salvationists typically call salvation a process and confuse the 3 tenses of salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

 

[mailmandan]

JMdan's version of Ephesians 2:8:

That's actually the Amplified Classic translation that I cited.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8 - Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

Hey look, guys! GotQuestions got this one right!
Where does faith come from? | GotQuestions.org

Typically, those who teach salvation by works and NOSAS are not fans of gotquestion.org So in that article that you cited from gotquestions.org, faith is referred to as a gift. Interesting.

In a different article on gotquestions.org - "What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God?" we read - When presenting salvation, the New Testament writers carefully chose words that emphasize grace and freedom. As a result, the Bible could not be more clear—salvation is absolutely free, the true gift of God in Christ, and our only responsibility is to receive the gift by faith (John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). :)

What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God? | GotQuestions.org

JMdan and friends claim that WE choose Jesus. That WE choose to believe (faith).

You sound like a Calvinist. After the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) WE do choose Jesus. So although choosing to believe in Jesus unto salvation is not exclusively a matter of human decision and after being drawn and enabled, God doesn't force us to choose Jesus, WE must choose Him.

Jesus says otherwise.
John 15:16

Keep reading - "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain," so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This does not change the fact that after being drawn and enabled, we choose to believe in Christ unto salvation. Do you believe that God fatalistically determines who will believe and who will not believe and we have no choice in the matter? Do you believe that we are robots? How could we be held responsible for unbelief (John 3:18) if we have no choice in the matter?

 

[GEN2REV]

More eisegesis. We do not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) the commandments in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but because we have received the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. So what is the act of obedience that causes us to receive the Holy Spirit? Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:9-10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Nobody except Jesus Christ has flawlessly obeyed all 10 commandments. Since the old covenant has been made obsolete by the new covenant, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God has made obsolete the old covenant to put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law. (Romans 13:8-10) Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

We receive salvation as a gift. Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted him from the Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ unto salvation all by ourselves. So in that sense only would I call faith a gift, but salvation is THE gift in Ephesians 2:8. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation, we must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

"Nominal" Christians don't even make it that far.

We strive to but we do not flawlessly obey the commandments and that is also not how we are saved. I already caught you bearing false witness against me more than once.

You are so confused.

It's not about step 3 works salvation. Once again, in context, Jesus is talking about false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23) These are not genuine believers who Jesus NEVER knew in Matthew 7:23. These many people were trusting in their works for salvation instead of Christ alone. (Matthew 7:22) Sound familiar?

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

So salvation according to you is received based on the merits of our obedience/works and is also maintained by works instead of being based on Christ's finished work of redemption and received through faith in Christ alone. What you teach is 100% opposite of what Scripture teaches. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9 etc..). Works-salvationists typically call salvation a process and confuse the 3 tenses of salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

No.

Nobody can choose to believe until they are called to by God.

Nobody chooses Jesus, Jesus chooses us.

Jesus said that nobody can cast out demons that is not a believer. Therefore Matthew 7:23 is speaking of believers that were living in sin. (workers of iniquity)

All Biblical.

Your entire view on Salvation is twisted and all out of order.

 

[GEN2REV]

That's actually the Amplified Classic translation that I cited.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8 - Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

Typically, those who teach salvation by works and NOSAS are not fans of gotquestion.org So in that article that you cited from gotquestions.org, faith is referred to as a gift. Interesting.

In a different article on gotquestions.org - "What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God?" we read - When presenting salvation, the New Testament writers carefully chose words that emphasize grace and freedom. As a result, the Bible could not be more clear—salvation is absolutely free, the true gift of God in Christ, and our only responsibility is to receive the gift by faith (John 1:12; 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). :)

What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God? | GotQuestions.org

You sound like a Calvinist. After the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) WE do choose Jesus. So although choosing to believe in Jesus unto salvation is not exclusively a matter of human decision and after being drawn and enabled, God doesn't force us to choose Jesus, WE must choose Him.

Keep reading - "and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain," so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This does not change the fact that after being drawn and enabled, we choose to believe in Christ unto salvation. Do you believe that God fatalistically determines who will believe and who will not believe and we have no choice in the matter? Do you believe that we are robots? How could we be held responsible for unbelief (John 3:18) if we have no choice in the matter?

Yes, it is easy to find an abundance of articles, and videos on Youtube, that claim that faith is not a gift, directly contrary to Scripture. That is also true for the many other False Doctrine that the Mainstream Devil's Churchianity preaches everywhere today. It is the widely accepted doctrine of Churchianity.

And that is all that you teach, and it's all I've ever seen you preach since I first encountered a post of yours a decade ago. You teach heresy and all doctrine that is contrary to God's Word. And you have many clones of yourself here who teach the exact same LIES.