This is why most believe that Jesus is a Man/Son and not God.

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Cristo Rei

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No, I'm not ignoring any Scriptures.

No, I don't have to be infallible to be aware of Scripture to a high degree. There are verses that show Jesus speaking as a man and those that show Him speaking as God.

That's not a contradiction and I'm not ignoring either set. There's a reason He speaks both ways.

Ahh I see so you select which verses are which to suit your belief, right. LoL

God said "This I my son" and Jesus said He is God's Son. Your explanation fails to cover that along with the fact that Christ prayed and spoke to God often.

But like I said, I admit I could be wrong.
Do you? Or do you think your 100% right?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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GEN2REV says,

I'll tell you what. You show any quote from any thread where someone says what you're accusing 'somebody' of saying ..... and I'll show you all the verses where Jesus claims to be God in one way or another.[/QUOTE\]

A person who believes that when John was inspired to write John 1:14 and he/she believes the Word is God and that it was God who became flesh/human is denying that the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God and so is denying that God gave his Only Begotten Son to the world of mankind.
The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1John 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (John 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.” 1John 4:9.
 

Episkopos

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Look at all these arguments. Jesus is this and Jesus is that. Jesus is only divine, not also human? Jesus is human, not also God? And the most ridiculous of all...Jesus is the Father?

None of these positions honour the Son as both God AND human.

Are there verses that call Jesus human? Of course. Why? Because He IS human.

Are there other verses that point to Jesus as being in the GodHead? Yes. Why? Because before Abraham was, He is.

The problem we face with these statements is trying to fit God and His ways into our limited reasoning.

People will go in attack mode too easily and willfully ignore the plain text of the Bible to back up an argument about one aspect of the truth or the other. You will never find a more dishonest person than a religious fanatic.

We are called to bear spiritual fruit not be religious nuts.

We each have 2 ears. In Hebrew that duality is covered in the word "oznayim". A proper balance in Hebrew is called "moznayim". That means "FROM ears". So then a balance has 2 polarities that are weighed in the balance and accepted. God HATES a false balance. It is abomination to Him.

The Bible contains God's words. We do well to listen to the verses....ALL the verses..with BOTH ears...allowing the seemingly contradictory statements we read in the Bible to inform our understanding.
When we do this HONESTLY, we find support for Jesus being both God and human.

This is a mystery. And should be accepted as such.

The Father is greater than the Son. That is indisputable. Jesus attests to this. You don't make the greater part of God to be human. You take a piece of God and mix that with humanity in order to raise humanity into the family of God.

But people don't like a ranking within the Godhead...so they reject it...no matter what the Bible attests to.

So then we invent theories and close one of our ears...to hear only what we want to. This is willful ignorance.

Eve was made from the rib of Adam. This sets a biblical precedent.

Why is it so difficult to understand how Jesus comes from the "rib" of the Father? A smaller part of a greater whole. This covers Jesus being God AND being fused with humanity. God the Father fuses Himself with His creation through His Son who is one with His Father to become one with us.

Quite amazing really! :)
 
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Pearl

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Yours for not being logical.
No one can be both the Son and father of himself that's just stupid
Logic doesn't come into this. The works of God are not logical. Is it logical that a virgin can give birth? Is it logical that a crown of thousands can be fed and satisfied from a couple of loaves and fish? No, it is not. Let your heart be opened unto the things of the Spirit.
 
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Pearl

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Pride is in the people who are certain of themselves...
Like iv stated many times, I admit I could be wrong... I humble myself to Gods wisdom

Do you? Or are you certain of yourself as well?

No pride in being certain.

John 17:7-9
Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
 

Matthias

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No one here has said there is a trinity that doesn't include Jesus. You're twisting words. What is your motive in twisting words? Avoidance?

I'm not interested in an interaction with someone who refuses to communicate in an honest manner.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. You must have misunderstood something I wrote.
 

Jim B

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Well that's exactly what I think as well.
You just refuted yourself for me... LoL...:)

Try sanity for a change. I didn't "refute myself". If you misunderstood what I wrote that's your problem, not mine.
 

Jim B

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"GOD WHY HAVE YOU ABANDONED ME"
If Jesus is also God then care to explain why God accuses himself of abandonment? I'm interested to see the mental gymnastics that gets applied to this one. LoL

The only thing you're interested is arguing for the sake of arguing. And the "LoL' shows your immaturity.
 

Jim B

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It's Ok... I understand more than you think....

Mar 4:15 "These are the ones who are on the forums where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them."

Now.... what do we know about Satan and Jesus???

WAS JESUS REALLY TEMPTED?

Of course he was. We are all familiar with the temptation of Jesus, but have most of us noticed how the temptation of Jesus makes the trinity an absurd impossibility. Let’s take a look at it in depth.

Matthew 4:1

"Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil."

James 1:13

"For God cannot be tempted by evil."

First, we see that Jesus is led by the Spirit into the desert. The Doctrine of the Trinity says that the three persons of the trinity are equal. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same being and are equal, why does Jesus have to be led into the desert? Does the Spirit know something that Jesus does not?

Secondly, we see the most obvious, Jesus is tempted, yet James clearly says that God cannot be tempted. So is James a liar, or are the man made creeds in error?

Mattew 4:5

"If you are the Son of God throw yourself down, For it is written: He will command His angels concerning you, and with their hands they will support you...Jesus answered him, Again it is written, You shall not put the Lord, your God to the test."

Notice that the devil calls him the Son of God not God. Satan knows God (read Job 1:6) yet he does not address Jesus as God but as the Son of God. Then Satan talks to Jesus about how God will save him if he jumps down. Jesus replies by saying, "You shall not put the Lord, your God to the test." Do you really believe that Jesus is referring to himself?

Matthew 4:8-11
"Then the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence, and he said to him, All these I will give to you if you will prostrate yourself and worship me." At this Jesus said to him, "Get away Satan! It is written: The Lord, your God, shall you worship and Him alone shall you serve."


Why would the devil offer God things that are already His? Psalm 24:1 says:

"The earth is the LORD's and all it holds, the world and those who live there."

Even harder to believe is the idea that the devil really expected God to worship him so that he could give God what is His already. This is ridiculous. Then Jesus replies by saying, "The Lord, your God, shall you worship and Him alone shall you serve." Can you honestly read this and believe that Jesus is talking about himself?

The temptation episode is written to show us how Jesus put his faith in God in front of everything, especially the desires of the flesh (i.e. hunger, power). It shows us that it is possible to live a life in perfect accordance to God’s will. He is our role model. This is why he was made just like us. The Bible says that he was made like us in every way. Hebrews 2:17 says:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God."
(above) Jesus is going to serve God? I thought he was God? Back to Hebrews, Jesus is made in every way like his brothers. Well, then either Jesus is not God but His anointed, or I am God also.

If Jesus is God, then this whole temptation episode is a farce. God cannot expect me to live up to Jesus' standards like the Bible says I should when I am not a Godman like Jesus. The whole purpose of this episode was for Jesus to set the standard, the example of faith and conduct for us to follow. If it takes being God to accomplish this then why even bother?

The creeds say that Jesus was tempted but cannot sin. If you cannot sin, are you really being tempted? The dual nature idea does not remedy the problem either because the Chalcedon Creed which is the one that says that Jesus is fully God and fully man also says that the dual natures are not separable, they are indivisible, united at all times. By the way, this idea of dual natures is called Dualism and it comes from Greek philosophy.

Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he had inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars. The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:

"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

This idea of gods coming in human form was very prevalent throughout the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural for people educated in Greek philosophies to incorporate this idea into Christianity.

Please read the Bible without injecting meanings that were never intended by its author.
Paul

Please read the Bible without injecting meanings that were never intended by its author. You look foolish!
 

Jim B

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there is a pretty good argument, i think, that saying “God” is not exactly the same thing as YHWH, even if we tend to think so

"we"? Do you have multiple personalities?

Yahweh, the name of the God of the Israelites, representing the biblical pronunciation of “YHWH,” the Hebrew name revealed to Moses in the book of Exodus. The name YHWH, consisting of the sequence of consonants Yod, Heh, Waw, and Heh, is known as the tetragrammaton.
 

Jim B

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hmm, you dont think it fair to say that most believers conflate the two terms, God and Yah?

I haven't polled most believers and neither have you. That is the problem with your reasoning. You assume that most believers believe a certain thing, with no evidence.

Again, Yahweh, the name of the God of the Israelites, represents the biblical pronunciation of “YHWH,” the Hebrew name revealed to Moses in the book of Exodus. The name YHWH, consisting of the sequence of consonants Yod, Heh, Waw, and Heh, is known as the tetragrammaton.
 

bbyrd009

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I haven't polled most believers and neither have you. That is the problem with your reasoning. You assume that most believers believe a certain thing, with no evidence.
meh, im fairly confident that most Christian believers hear YHWH when they hear “God”
Again, Yahweh, the name of the God of the Israelites, represents the biblical pronunciation of “YHWH,” the Hebrew name revealed to Moses in the book of Exodus. The name YHWH, consisting of the sequence of consonants Yod, Heh, Waw, and Heh, is known as the tetragrammaton.
those are their vowels i guess, and yes, you have said it twice now, why i am not quite sure wadr
 

marks

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but then maybe see Who says that he knows anything, does not yet know it as he ought
Do you see that quote as being a repudiation of all knowledge?

Doesn't that thinking go nowhere? "I know that I cannot know, so I cannot know that I cannot know, this I know!"

Much love!