GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
You're not helping anybody by trying to convince people that data, that is easily located, doesn't exist.
You need help yourself.
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You need help yourself.
aul
And you refuse to see and accept the verses where others spoke as God... If you understood the Hebrew culture... you would see....
Moses spoke as God... In the first person!!! Yet, you never claim he was God. Why? Because you follow the teachings of men...not God!
There is one very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."
Now let's review one last example and look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)
"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).
In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? Hence these sayings:
"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent ... I (Jesus) have manifested thy name unto (the disciples) ... Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:3,6,11). Note: one in unity... not one being!!!
"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
Jesus, then, enjoyed a unity of mind and Spirit with the Father, so that he could say, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). For the disciples Jesus was in the place of God; he spoke God's words, proclaimed God's truth, and pronounced His judgements.
Hebrews 1:1 makes more sense now:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (ages).
I gave you this data in post #8.... Did you not read them?
A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
Paul
And you refuse to see and accept the verses where others spoke as God... If you understood the Hebrew culture... you would see....
Moses spoke as God... In the first person!!! Yet, you never claim he was God. Why? Because you follow the teachings of men...not God!
There is one very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3). Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."
Now let's review one last example and look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)
"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).
In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? Hence these sayings:
"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent ... I (Jesus) have manifested thy name unto (the disciples) ... Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:3,6,11). Note: one in unity... not one being!!!
"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).
Jesus, then, enjoyed a unity of mind and Spirit with the Father, so that he could say, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). For the disciples Jesus was in the place of God; he spoke God's words, proclaimed God's truth, and pronounced His judgements.
Hebrews 1:1 makes more sense now:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (ages).
I gave you this data in post #8.... Did you not read them?
A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians
Paul
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
You're right.
And here I thought I knew the Bible pretty well.
Forgive me.
Please post the verses where Moses is called the Son of God and the chapters that present his divine conception and where God spoke to his parents, telling them that they would be having a divine child that will be called the "Son of the Most High God" and that this child will be holy and will fulfill prophecies as being of the line of David and will be given the throne of David.
I flat missed those.
Thanks. Looking forward to seeing those verses so that I can finally be straightened out on all this.
Of course you missed that.... You need to check your American privilege my friend! So when is ever a Son considered the Father???
Let's see how the Hebrew culture see the Son of God... The very culture in which the scriptures are written.... Pay attention... J Baxeras has a cool study...
Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:
"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."
It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:
Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible (ZEB), vol.4, pg.203-204).
"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6. You going to claim they are God too????
For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:
"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:
Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man
applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."
This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.
"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).
Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.
"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).
John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.
You ignore Jesus telling you he was a Man.... I can't help you if you ignore the very teachings of Jesus Himself... John 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
Bonus verse that backs up what Jesus said.... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him
Who gave him??? see John 8:40
Paul
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
I don't waste my time with extra-biblical content.
You failed to show Moses was the Son of God.
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
I acknowledge there is scripture that appears to suggest that Jesus might be God.
That's why I'm not 100% certain. I THINK that Jesus is son of God. I admit I could be wrong. I'm not claiming to be infallible as most people do.
Your the one ignoring the scripture that contradicts you... I acknowledge it
You on the other hand you appear to be 100% certain of yourself despite much contradicting scripture. Are you claiming infallibility? Because you fail to give any logical explanation to my reasons.
You don't explain why Jesus prays to himself or how Jesus could possibly begot Jesus or why God himself said Jesus is His son.
Your the one who is certain of yourself.
Your the one who is ignoring scripture that doesn't suit you
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
Although it's an imperfect analogy I try to explain to people that when Jesus was on earth he was like the US Secretary of State in His relationship to God. In other words, He represented the full power and authority of God, similar to the Secretary of State representing the full power and authority of the President of the United States. Everyone knows that the Secretary of State is not the President, but that he represents him. Nobody would suggest that because he is not the President, he doesn't have the full authority.
As I said, it's an imperfect analogy, but when Jesus was on earth he had the full power and authority of His father, God.
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Then why did God say this is my son?
And why did Jesus say he is the Son?
And why would God talk to and pray to himself?
Are you 100% certain of yourself despite this apparent biblical contradiction?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
As I wrote in my post the analogy isn't perfect.
Why did God say this is my son? Because Jesus is God's son.
Why did Jesus say he is the Son? For the same reason.
Your last sentence makes zero sense.
Jesus represented the full power and authority of God when He (Jesus) was on earth.
There is no contradiction in what is written in the Bible. The problem is with your misunderstanding.
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
He isn't the only one certain. Most Christians believe the deity of Jesus. Just because some who call themselves Christians can't understand it doesn't make it untrue. The Holy Spirit has led us into that belief and he will lead you also if you would only choose to ask.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Yours for not being logical.
No one can be both the Son and father of himself that's just stupid
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Excluding yourself, correct? Your pride obviously gets in the way of understanding. I pity you!
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Hang in a sec I admit I could be wrong...
Your claiming to be 100% correct...
That's the difference here
Jim B
Well-Known Member
As I said in the previous post, your pride obviously gets in the way of understanding. I pity you -- twice!
Jim B
Well-Known Member
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