The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Truth7t7]

Not even close.

Second coming, first judgment (of the saved), Millennial kingdom, judgment of the unsaved, LOF, continuation of the existing kingdom for eternity.

Scripture clearly teaches the resurrection of all and final judgment of all takes place at the same time

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Truth7t7]

It also says that about heaven. Can you explain how elements of heaven are on fire and dissolve?

Yes, because God said so, he is God, the creator of the heavens and earth

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture clearly teaches the resurrection of all and final judgment of all takes place at the same time

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Then explain why Revelation 20 has dead saints coming back to life and the rest of the dead that did not come to life when they did having this said about them, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"


If all the dead rise at the same time, why do some rise first, and after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" rise?

Obviously you are misunderstanding John 5.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, because God said so, he is God, the creator of the heavens and earth

Or maybe it's not a literal fire because how can heaven catch on fire and burn. I think it's a spiritual fire that cleanses while destroying the evil aspects. The result is the old world is gone and a new world is in it's place.

 

[Truth7t7]

Then explain why Revelation 20 has dead saints coming back to life and the rest of the dead that did not come to life when they did having this said about them, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"


If all the dead rise at the same time, why do some rise first, and after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" rise?

Obviously you are misunderstanding John 5.

Nothing in my holy Bible states anybody in Revelation 20:1-6 has come back to life as you claim, it teaches they are "The Souls" and "The Dead" in the spiritual realm

"The Souls" live and reign in the spiritual realm, they aren't living on earth

As you were previously shown, "All That Are In The Graves" will hear the Lord's voice at the second coming and come forth, you disregard this scriptural truth, trying to put 1,000 years between resurrections "Wrong"

Revelation 20:4-5KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Or maybe it's not a literal fire because how can heaven catch on fire and burn. I think it's a spiritual fire that cleanses while destroying the evil aspects. The result is the old world is gone and a new world is in it's place.

Just like Sodom and Gomorrah weren't literally burnt to a crisp, it was just symbolic allegory as you claim

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[ewq1938]

Nothing in my holy Bible states anybody in Revelation 20:1-6 has come back to life as you claim, it teaches they are "The Souls" and "The Dead" in the spiritual realm

It says they lived and were part of the first resurrection. That's two mentions of coming back to life.

"The Souls" live and reign in the spiritual realm, they aren't living on earth

They were already living souls in heaven. When John saw them become ZAO after being dead, a physical resurrection took place.

As you were previously shown, "All That Are In The Graves" will hear the Lord's voice at the second coming and come forth, you disregard this scriptural truth, trying to put 1,000 years between resurrections "Wrong"

No, you are wrong to ignore that a thousand years is inbetween the two resurrections.


Revelation 20:4-5KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and (AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS, Revelation 20) they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[ewq1938]

Just like Sodom and Gomorrah weren't literally burnt to a crisp, it was just symbolic allegory as you claim

I claim it was literal. Do you claim it was symbolic allegory??

 

[farouk]

As well as the questions, When? and What? future events relates to the question, Who?

In this connection, properly distinguishing the three entities mentioned in 1 Corinnthians 10.32 - Jews, Gentiles, and the church of God - can be helpful.

 

[Truth7t7]

It says they lived and were part of the first resurrection. That's two mentions of coming back to life.




They were already living souls in heaven. When John saw them become ZAO after being dead, a physical resurrection took place.





No, you are wrong to ignore that a thousand years is inbetween the two resurrections.


Revelation 20:4-5KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and (AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS, Revelation 20) they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We disagree, those seen in Revelation 20:1-6 are "The Souls" and "The Dead", they are 100% spiritual realm

There is only one time of resurrection for "All" that are in the grave, as John 5:28-29 clearly teaches, this takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ (The End)

We have run around the bush several times, it's all yours

We Disagree

 

[Truth7t7]

I claim it was literal. Do you claim it was symbolic allegory??

Sodom and Gomorrah were literally burnt to a crisp, just as this earth will be burnt to a crisp at the second coming "day of the Lord", as 2 Peter 3:10-13 teaches

"Even Thus Shall It Be In The Day When The Son Of Man Is Revealed"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[ewq1938]

We disagree, those seen in Revelation 20:1-6 are "The Souls" and "The Dead", they are 100% spiritual realm`

Until the first resurrection then they are 100% in the Earthly realm reigning with Christ over the nations. Are you just going to ignore the fact that there are two resurrections in Revelation 20?

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"

All Amills do ignore and sidestep that verse.

 

[ewq1938]

Sodom and Gomorrah were literally burnt to a crisp,

Everyone knows that. You are battling your own created Strawman fallacy.

just as this earth will be burnt to a crisp at the second coming "day of the Lord", as 2 Peter 3:10-13 teaches

That day of the Lord is not the day of the second coming. What? You didn't know there are many days of the Lord in scripture? Why don't you know that?

"Even Thus Shall It Be In The Day When The Son Of Man Is Revealed"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Funny because isn't there also scripture that equates the second coming to the days of Noah and all that water? So, is it water or fire that day? Or maybe it's neither! The second coming is not about fire or water but both examples are of the suddenness and unexpectedness of God's wrath!

 

[Timtofly]

Once again you are taking scripture horribly out of context. In no way, shape or form is this verse saying that the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years. All this verse is saying is that one 24 hour day and one thousand years make no difference to the Lord. Why? Because He exists outside of time. No amount of time has any affect on the Lord. One day is as a thousand years, five thousand years or any amount of time to the Lord since He created time and exists outside of time.

You are also taking Scripture out of context. The Greek word refers only to the 12 hours of daylight. You claim 24 hours. Peter is not comparing time. Peter tells you not to be ignorant, and here you are being ignorant of Peter's point. 1000 years is a literal fixed time, compared to the figurative phrase "Day with the Lord" which is not a fixed time. It is not 12 hours, nor 24 hours. The "day with the Lord" is the figurative point of what a literal 1000 years on earth represents. God is way more patient that a mere 24 hours. If time did not matter to God, then God would have no patience whatsoever. The point would be lost on Him. God's patience is measured out over thousands of years on earth. Time does matter to God, because God created time and space according to His Will. God is longsuffering because He created time to show His longsuffering and patience.

The coming day of the Lord, day with the Lord, is going to be 1000 years in length. It will be Holy and set apart. There will be no sin, nor death by sin. All humanity will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies on earth. Jesus will reign from Jerusalem over all the other nations. There will be offspring and humans will spread out over all the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

2 Peter 3:10 states the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, that sure don't sound like 1,000 literal years to me, smiles!

Then to you it will be 1,000 figurative years, but will still feel like a literal 1,000 years to those living on the earth. Has the last indefinite amount of years since the Cross felt like 24 hours to you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's a little hard for me to see how you don't think the day of the Lord is 1,000 years considering what Peter says.

This is all you have to say in response to what I said? Did you read my post? If you did then it shouldn't be hard at all for you to see how I think that because I explained it to you there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are also taking Scripture out of context. The Greek word refers only to the 12 hours of daylight. You claim 24 hours.

The Greek word can refer to the hours of daylight and it can also refer to a 24 hour day. So, nice try.

Peter is not comparing time. Peter tells you not to be ignorant, and here you are being ignorant of Peter's point.

You are ignorant of every point made in scripture.

1000 years is a literal fixed time, compared to the figurative phrase "Day with the Lord" which is not a fixed time. It is not 12 hours, nor 24 hours. The "day with the Lord" is the figurative point of what a literal 1000 years on earth represents. God is way more patient that a mere 24 hours. If time did not matter to God, then God would have no patience whatsoever. The point would be lost on Him. God's patience is measured out over thousands of years on earth. Time does matter to God, because God created time and space according to His Will. God is longsuffering because He created time to show His longsuffering and patience.

You just don't get it. God exists outside of time. Time does not affect God AT ALL. But, what you're saying would imply that it does. You don't have a clue. What Peter was saying is that no amount of time makes any difference to God. Which is true of a God who exists outside of time. But, if one day was literally equal to 1000 years to God then that would imply He exists within the realm of time even if in a different way than we do. But, He doesn't. He created time and exists outside of it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then to you it will be 1,000 figurative years, but will still feel like a literal 1,000 years to those living on the earth. Has the last indefinite amount of years since the Cross felt like 24 hours to you?

Instead of acknowledging his point, you completely ignore it. Tell us how exactly a thousand years can come as a thief in the night. You're the one claiming that the day of the Lord is 1,000 years, so if you want to be taken seriously then explain how 1,000 years can come as a thief in the night. Good luck.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That takes place at the Revelation 21 New Heaven and new Earth timeframe not the second coming. Is Revelation 21 not in your bible? Do you not know when the New Heaven and new Earth happens?

You said "There is no such thing as a firery day of wrath in the NT end times". Is 2 Peter 3:10-13 in the NT? Yes. Is it about the end times? Yes. So, you're wrong yet again.

When Peter wrote "But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells" in 2 Peter 3:13, what promise was he referring to? The promise of His second coming, right?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

It's important to understand that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in as a direct fulfillment of the promise of His second coming because that gives us the timing of when the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in. It makes no sense to think that Peter was saying that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of Christ's second coming if the new heavens and new earth weren't even going to be ushered in until 1,000+ years later.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then explain why Revelation 20 has dead saints coming back to life and the rest of the dead that did not come to life when they did having this said about them, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"


If all the dead rise at the same time, why do some rise first, and after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" rise?

Obviously you are misunderstanding John 5.

Jesus said a singular time/hour/event is coming when all of the dead would be raised. You turn that into multiple times/hours/events when the dead are raised. Don't change what Jesus taught to fit your view of Revelation 20. Change your view of Revelation 20 to match what Jesus taught.

Obviously, you are not accepting that scripture teaches that Jesus Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection. And you're ignoring the scriptures which talk about how we have part in His resurrection spiritually.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.