The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Earburner]

Well, Jesus is the fire. Our God is a consuming fire, right?

As for the two judgments you described, I am assuming you mean the following, from your quote above:


I would certainly agree with you regarding the first; the judgment issued is subjection to death, both spiritual in the subjection to spiritual death (immediately for Adam and Eve, as God said in Genesis 2:17, and from birth for all who have come after), and physical in the subjection to physical death (the first death). But there is a promise in that, too, that both spiritual life can be had in this life, and then eternal life even after the physical death, through the promised Savior, the first allusion to that being found in Genesis 3:15.

But the "second judgment" that you mention here is not a judgment at all, but a promise, again, first alluded to in Genesis 3:15, but repeated in various ways through all the prophets (Old Testament) and the gospels and apostles (New Testament). And like all God's promises, it finds its 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

The second judgment is the final Judgment, which will be executed by Jesus upon His return ~ depicted graphically in symbolic and literal ways by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and by John in his vision in Revelation 20:11-15.

"First" and "second" are used throughout the Bible regarding several things, and the first is the initial, and the second is the final and permanent. One prominent example is the first Adam (Adam, of course), and the second Adam, Jesus. There is also the first and second resurrection...

1. the first being spiritual, when, as Paul says in Romans 8 and Ephesians 2 among other places, we as believers, each at his/her appointed time in this life, are justified in our sin by God, are called inwardly by the Holy Spirit, and have our hearts changed from stone to flesh... thus we are born again of the Holy Spirit through God-given faith​

2. the second being physical, when, at the end of this age, we are bodily resurrected ~ along with everyone else but to the resurrection to eternal life rather than the resurrection to eternal judgment... Yes, at this time, all will have decided to either remain as a "goat", or will have been converted to Christ and been made to be one of His sheep.​

And the first and second death...

1. the first being physical, each of us at our appointed time, our departure from this life, and experienced by all​

2. the second being spiritual, which is the result of this second, final Judgment, and is the final, permanent state of condemnation under God's judgment, experienced forever and in permanent separation from the new heaven and new earth​

If you look at a.) the first and second resurrection and b.) the first and second death closely, I think you will see that the two (a and b) are the total reverse of each other in every aspect.


Yes, I don't disagree, here, but this is kind of... well, incomplete. We, as born again saints of God, are redeemed now, even in this life. But we will be fully redeemed at the return of Christ and upon the final Judgment. This is what we call the "now-and-not-yet" of the Gospel.


Okay, I agree with this, too, but I'm not sure what you mean by "totally destroyed." If you mean "totally destroyed" in the sense of totally and eternally ruined, and departing from the new heaven and new earth, having no hope of redemption and ever again experiencing God's grace but only judgment, then I'm tracking right with you. But if you mean "totally destroyed" in the non-biblical sense of non-existence and annihilation... not so much.


Ah, so not subscribing to the pre-mill view is a good thing. :) I'm not sure exactly where you stand, but I'm with you on that, at least. :)

Grace and peace to you, Earburner. And to all.

Hi Pinseeker, I may not have been for so much detail as you, but I do agree with what you have said. As for condemnation, we all are physically born and have been judged as condemned already, therefore to become "not condemned", we must appeal to the New judgment, which is God's ruling for forgiveness, through the blood of Christ.
When we have done that, the judgment of forgiveness is issued, thereby granting one who was condemned, to be now not condemned. That indeed is a judgment.

 

[Earburner]

lol. I'd add this to my list but no one would believe an Amillennialist would say something so incredibly d***.
.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This isn't conventional warfare but is a miracle as confirmed I the next verse:

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Also the False Prophet is a man not a country.

What do horns represent in scripture?
From Daniel 8:20 can you provide the answer about the second Beast with two horns, and what they signified?
Also, what does scripture say that false prophets promote and preach?
Can you explain and describe how there is a country today that has a union of two forms of government within it, which is to say two horns? Revelation 13:11
Think deeper than you do, and don't let
"Church-ianity" rule you.

 

[ewq1938]

What do horns represent in scripture?

Kings.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

From Daniel 8:20 can you provide the answer about the second Beast with two horns, and what they signified?

Signify since he hasn't shown up yet. The second beast is the Antichrist and the two little horns should make someone think of Daniels little horn. The second beast is the False Prophet who is one person. The two symbolic horns IMO tells me he will fulfill the 7th and 8th kings of Revelation 17. So a king of some type first, then a different role as king last. Some think he is peaceful at first, trying to fool as much people as he can that he is God, perhaps even Jesus Christ and when he has convinced all he can, then he becomes the terroristic king who starts killing those who refuse to worship him or take his mark like the beheaded saints in Revelation 20.

Can you explain and describe how there is a country today that has a union of two forms of government within it, which is to say two horns?

That is not what horns represent in Revelation. A horn is a singular person like a king or leader. Congress is not a horn because it is many people. Also, America has 3 branches of government so not a match to anything about "two".

Revelation 13:11
Think deeper than you do, and don't let
"Church-ianity" rule you.

Same to you and your very very left field interpretation. You are badly missing the mark.

 

[Earburner]

From Daniel 8:20 can you provide the answer about the second Beast with two horns, and what they signified?

Sorry. I wasn't specific in my question.
I am referring to the second beast in Daniel, not in Revelation.

See Daniel 7:3-5 for which of the four Beasts was signified by the Ram with two horns. It was the second beast (vs. 5) "like unto a bear", being the "Medio-Persian" Empire. That same empire was shown as a "Ram" at war against the "he goat", who was "Alexander the Great" of the "Grecian Empire" (the third Beast) in Daniel 8:1-8.
The angel Gabriel interprets that past event in detail in Daniel 8:16-26.

The "little horn" in Daniel was Antiochus Epiphanes, a king of the Seleucid Empire, being one of the four horns/kingdoms that the Grecian Empire had divided into. Though today it's division is known as the "Hellenistic kingdoms:, all four of those "horns" still remained to be an extension of the Grecian empire, the third Beast.
This is all documented ancient history.

There is NO prophetic "little horn" out of Daniel that is going to show up in Revelation. Prophecy once fulfilled, cannot be fulfilled again.

 

[ewq1938]

There is NO prophetic "little horn" out of Daniel that is going to show up in Revelation.

I agree. John wasn't shown a ten horned beast that grew an 11th horn. Horns are still kings in Daniel and Revelation.

 

[Earburner]

That is not what horns represent in Revelation. A horn is a singular person like a king or leader. Congress is not a horn because it is many people. Also, America has 3 branches of government so not a match to anything about "two".

The two forms of government are the Republican and Democratic parties.

 

[ewq1938]

The two forms of government are the Republican and Democratic parties.

A horn is a king with a kingdom. The two parties do not match what we are given in Revelation.

The False Prophet is a male person, singular.

 

[Earburner]

Kings.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

They will be ten European kingdoms out of NATO.
YES, and of course all countries have their leaders/kings, but the kings alone by themselves are not going to be waging war against Christ, when He returns. They all will be in league with the Beast, having their own armies and WMD.

 

[ewq1938]

They will be ten European kingdoms out of NATO.

They cannot be existing kingdoms/governments because of this:

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

IMO the world's borders will be re-drawn so the world is dividing into ten areas where each new King will rule. That means it's not ten from one country but the entirety of Europe itself could be one of these ten kingdoms. All of North America could be another etc etc.


All of Canada
All of America
All South America
All of Mexico and surrounding islands
All of Russia
All of Asia (Asian countries and Islands)
All of Africa
All of the Antarctica
All of the north pole area and Alaska
All Pacific Islands


Or a different list covering all lands of the Earth.

 

[Keraz]

Or a different list covering all lands of the Earth.

The division of the world into ten regions was done years ago. Google it.
That is how it will be soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has destroyed our modern infrastructure and depopulated the Middle East.

 

[ewq1938]

The division of the world into ten regions was done years ago. Google it.
That is how it will be soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has destroyed our modern infrastructure and depopulated the Middle East.

The world has way more than ten regions. North America has 3 just by itself, and Africa has the most. One king/Ruler does not rule Africa.

 

[Zao is life]

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly or not. Do you not believe in a future judgment day which will occur when Christ returns with His angels (Matthew 25:31-46) and/or that occurs after the thousand years and Satan's little season?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done in his body, according to that which he has done, whether good or bad. See also Psalm 50:4-7; Psalm 9:7-8.

The fate of unbelievers is already sealed, just as Satan's is:

John 3:18-19 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

We will not be judged unto condemnation, but we will be judged.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done in his body, according to that which he has done, whether good or bad.

In terms of John 12:31-33, I understand that Satan is already judged in the sense that his fate is already sealed. But, that doesn't mean that Revelation 20:10 has already occurred. Would you agree with that or not?

Yes, because of the facts I mentioned above.

You're conflating this:

"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29).

with the resurrection to occur when Jesus returns, and in order to do so you're completely ignoring the fact that the timing for the above resurrection was qualified by Jesus, without ambiguity:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now [νῦν nŷn] is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live." (John 5:25)

nŷn means "now", of this present time". Nothing else. It never means "later". Jesus was referring to the time of His own death and resurrection. Acts 2:27-31 tell us that when Christ died, His soul went to hades, and Peter tells us that by the Spirit Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19). Matthew 27:52-53 records the following where the death of Christ is recorded: "Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep arose, and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

Only the saints who had fallen asleep entered the holy city (New Jerusalem, NOT the city that Revelation does not call the holy city) when they arose. The text says nothing more about those who were raised to condemnation, and nothing more about the saints who entered New Jerusalem after they rose from the dead.

We mustn't add to it, but we must understand that the resurrection spoken about in John 6:39-40, 44 & 54; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; and Revelation 20:4-6 is talking only about the resurrection of those who died in Christ and will be raised when He returns. These verses say nothing about a general resurrection of all the dead.

Jesus said those who do not believe in Him are condemned already. Revelation 20:11-15 is not talking about the living (zao) standing before God but the dead. There is also no word used there which refers to the resurrection.

This is the case whether the thousand years is symbolic or literal. It makes no difference.

 

[Keraz]

The world has way more than ten regions. North America has 3 just by itself, and Africa has the most. One king/Ruler does not rule Africa.

It is Prophecy, not yet happened, but it will.
Each of the ten regions will have a President or Governor. Daniel and Revelation tell us plainly that quite soon after this is established, one man will rise and take dictatorial control over all of them.

 

[Zao is life]

There is also the first and second resurrection...

1. the first being spiritual, when, as Paul says in Romans 8 and Ephesians 2 among other places, we as believers, each at his/her appointed time in this life, are justified in our sin by God, are called inwardly by the Holy Spirit, and have our hearts changed from stone to flesh... thus we are born again of the Holy Spirit through God-given faith​

2. the second being physical, when, at the end of this age, we are bodily resurrected ~ along with everyone else but to the resurrection to eternal life rather than the resurrection to eternal judgment... Yes, at this time, all will have decided to either remain as a "goat", or will have been converted to Christ and been made to be one of His sheep.​

Spiritual 'resurrection' is a complete fallacy and is not biblical (though most churches teach it),

but rather than hijack this thread with a separate but related topic, I've showed why your statement above is a fallacy and is not biblical in this thread:

The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'​

 

[Earburner]

The division of the world into ten regions was done years ago. Google it.
That is how it will be soon after the Lord's Day of wrath has destroyed our modern infrastructure and depopulated the Middle East.

No, this is how it will be BEFORE the Lord returns, taking vengeance, soon after the Beast (Global Banking Elite) has destroyed our modern infrastructure ("The Great Reset")* and depopulated the Middle East (Revelation 9:14-15).

*Note: "Covid-19: The Great Reset", co-authored by Klaus Schwab of the "World Economic Forum",
Key word: Economic: as in Digitized money and the mark of the Beast.
The UN just signed an agreement with Klaus Schwab, the World Economic Forum, to accelerate UN Agenda 2030.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hi Pinseeker, I may not have been for so much detail as you, but I do agree with what you have said. As for condemnation, we all are physically born and have been judged as condemned already, therefore to become "not condemned", we must appeal to the New judgment, which is God's ruling for forgiveness, through the blood of Christ.
When we have done that, the judgment of forgiveness is issued, thereby granting one who was condemned, to be now not condemned. That indeed is a judgment.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree. God issues judgments, for sure. A word search for 'judgment' is very informative about what they are and why He issues them.

There're a bunch of crazy things being thought and said about Revelation and the end times here, but I expected that... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Spiritual 'resurrection' is a complete fallacy and is not biblical (though most churches teach it),

The spiritual resurrection is most certainly biblical. At the moment, you are not willing to hear it.
Our salvation unto redemption, is a two stage process.
First we must be born again of God's Holy Spirit, whereby we are clothed and sealed by God's indwelling presence, unto the Day of our physical redemption/resurrection, which is second.
Romans 8:8-9.

Now you can know what Rev. 20:6 really means.
Rev.20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part [present tense] in the first resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such [who are Born Again] the second death hath no power, but they shall be [in their lifetime] priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [the undisclosed length of time of God's Grace].

 

[Zao is life]

Deleted due error

 

[Zao is life]

The spiritual resurrection is most certainly biblical. At the moment, you are not willing to hear it.
Our salvation unto redemption, is a two stage process.
First we must be born again of God's Holy Spirit, whereby we are clothed and sealed by God's indwelling presence, unto the Day of our physical redemption/resurrection, which is second.
Romans 8:8-9.

Now you can know what Rev. 20:6 really means.
Rev.20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part [present tense] in the first resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such [who are Born Again] the second death hath no power, but they shall be [in their lifetime] priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [the undisclosed length of time of God's Grace].

I can't answer you about that here, because the subject is too long and I created a different thread about the subject of resurrection because this thread has nothing to do with it:

The theological fallacy of a spiritual 'resurrection'

 

[ewq1938]

The spiritual resurrection is most certainly biblical. At the moment, you are not willing to hear it.
Our salvation unto redemption, is a two stage process.
First we must be born again of God's Holy Spirit, whereby we are clothed and sealed by God's indwelling presence, unto the Day of our physical redemption/resurrection, which is second.

Which is what we find in Revelation 20. A group of born again Christians refuse the mark, the worship and have the testimony of Christ and are killed because of that. Then they are seen alive again and have taken part in the first of two physical resurrections.

Now you can know what Rev. 20:6 really means.
Rev.20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part [present tense] in the first resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such [who are Born Again] the second death hath no power, but they shall be [in their lifetime] priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [the undisclosed length of time of God's Grace].

That's not what the chapter presents. You have unsaved people somehow being killed for the testimony of Christ and after death they have a spiritual resurrection. That's opposite of what the chapter says. Amillennialism always does something like this to the text, butchering it into something opposite of what is there.

Congrats, you made the list for the third time as I will be adding this to it now.