For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

Not real, just imagined. I just don't find that argument convincing.

"Before the world existed", how clear a time statement do you want? But alas, I'm repeating myself over and over now.

Much love!

A spirit of Gnosticism
J.

 

[quietthinker]

How about starting off with the Garden of Gethsemane scripture when Christ was praying to his Father? What is the local and surrounding context of these passages? Who is the subject, who is the object? Why did Christ weep and became very sad on the heels of his glory he wished and hoped to have, promised to him by his Father? What does it say about Christ? He was human, with a human nature, not a Father God nature, although his Father spoke 'into' him all the time since his birth as with his angels.

As I see it, the whole Jesus exercise, if we can call it that, is to show first hand, without an intermediary the character of God, ie, how he is wired at his core.

His condescension and humiliation, reveals this. His whole journey among us from his conception through to Gethsemane and Calvary are windows into the heart of God which I think neither the Devil or other watching intelligences were expecting......ie, that the Creator of all that exists would empty himself to the point of allowing his creatures to murder him. It left them gob smacked so to speak.....it elevated God's heart in the understanding of the Universe to a level of adoration previously unknown.

Revelation 7:12 describes their response:-
“Amen! 1Praise and 2glory and 3wisdom and 4thanks and 5honour and 6power and 7strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”

It is in our interest to not understate this in our understanding.....to not gloss over it and take it for granted.

I have numbered and highlighted the expressions that are used.....yes, 7. as an interesting aside. Is this coincidental?.....I think not....but thats another story.

 

[marks]

3. Later in verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.

You answer this yourself in the above paragraph. Jesus shared glory with the Father before the world existed. Jesus will share immortality and glory with the redeemed in the time to come. So no need to conflate these.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is an OLD expression (idiom) as many of these idioms are in scripture.

I've not yet found your substantiation for this assertion yet.

"Before the world existed", where else do you see this expression in Scripture, in a context that tells us this is idiomatic, figurative, not an actual time statement?

Much love!

 

[marks]

4. In verse 24 Jesus prays to his Father as if this glory of immortality is given to him for the first time after his death on the cross. His Father loved him from ancient times before Jesus actually went to the cross and received this glory of immortality for the first time. It is clear though that the Father gave Jesus immortality and thus Jesus cannot be God the Father himself, as that would disregard scripture completely.

(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me. For You loved me from before the foundation of the world.

As the last point . . . Jesus had full power of life and death - His Own, and others - prior to the cross.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are beginning to circle back I believe and I do not want to repeat what I've already said. This discussion is already going nowhere I'm afraid.

I expect you are correct.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Correct marks, but he's going a step further..as you may have noticed.
J.

How do you mean?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

How do you mean?

Much love!

As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.

Ask him if Jesus was a created being.
J.

 

[Johann]

How do you mean?

Much love!

Anyway, I'm signing off, 01.47 in the morning here.
God bless
J.

 

[marks]

Anyway, I'm signing off, 01.47 in the morning here.
God bless
J.

Happy trails!

 

[APAK]

As I see it, the whole Jesus exercise, if we can call it that, is to show first hand, without an intermediary the character of God, ie, how he is wired at his core.

His condescension and humiliation, reveals this. His whole journey among us from his conception through to Gethsemane and Calvary are windows into the heart of God which I think neither the Devil or other watching intelligences were expecting......ie, that the Creator of all that exists would empty himself to the point of allowing his creatures to murder him. It left them gob smacked so to speak.....it elevated God's heart in the understanding of the Universe to a level of adoration previously unknown.

Revelation 7:12 describes their response:-
“Amen! 1Praise and 2glory and 3wisdom and 4thanks and 5honour and 6power and 7strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”

It is in our interest to not understate this in our understanding.....to not gloss over it and take it for granted.

I have numbered and highlighted the expressions that are used.....yes, 7. as an interesting aside. Is this coincidental?.....I think not....but thats another story.

Well I do read you loud and clear in your response. It does impress upon me in a refreshing way, the significance of God's love for us and his creation through his own image of his Son.

Yes, God personified himself in his Son and you have just highlighted and why we should not take God's message and the actions of his image for granted, and me included. It does set you back to see a much bigger picture of God indeed.

God is showing himself as if he were a human being doing all that his Son did on this earth. And this display in the Garden prior to his image's death was displayed for all creation to see, and as you said to have his image of himself murdered, for us. Of course all laid out in his grand plan that had multiple inlaid purposes. The connection between himself and his Son was really tight, truly as one can get, in mind and spirit, although not the same beings.

Yes, point label 7 is interesting and I believe not a coincidence, as it indicated(es) the type of superhuman strength and power that can only be sourced from God himself required for a human being in suffering, at his breaking point, to keep the faith and carry on with his mission of sacrificial death on the Cross.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Some member was upset (don't know why) by you saying "God the Son" and not the Son of God...petty,silly remarks.
Shalom to you and family dear brother in Christ.
J.

(sister, lol)

 

[APAK]

You answer this yourself in the above paragraph. Jesus shared glory with the Father before the world existed. Jesus will share immortality and glory with the redeemed in the time to come. So no need to conflate these.

Much love!

As you said in your other thread you created about the definition of glory, there is only one glorification of the Son of Man, by implication at least, as you stated per scripture.

John 12: 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

You see Christ said of himself that he was/should to be glorified (for the first time) with immortality and power at/after his death and spoke of it in the Garden praying and weeping about it before hand. Christ never spoke of his or a pre-existence of himself ever, unless you will response as a reflex action, and produce the usual trinitarian set of scripture verse cards I know by heart. Spare me the pain of the chaos it causes for scripture sake alone.
//
Back to your question of your post ....

If you read my entire question you are so concerned about in my commentary, again, you will find it was already implicitly answered by what absurdity I deliberately wrote for its second half.. And the following sentences reinforced this 'no' or 'never' answer.

--------------------pertinent part of the commentary---------------------------------
3. Later in verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Now the second and non-bolded question after the subject question, in question (no pun intended) was also answered by implication as a 'yes.' We as true believers shall be glorified as Christ with immortality and share in the same divinity of God the Father.

I hope I have finally answered all your questions marks

 

[face2face]

Were Jesus actually wanting to express to His Father that He desired the Father once again glorify Him with the glory He had with His Father before the world was, how would He have to say it so that you'd believe it?
Much love!

Marks, would you say you tend to apply a literal reading of this text? I've noticed in my time here few believers actually refer to the Bible to support their beliefs and when they do they tend to take the text at face value. Would you say this is your approach?

 

[Waiting on him]

Some member was upset (don't know why) by you saying "God the Son" and not the Son of God...petty,silly remarks.
Shalom to you and family dear brother in Christ.
J.

Sister.

 

[APAK]

I've not yet found your substantiation for this assertion yet.

"Before the world existed", where else do you see this expression in Scripture, in a context that tells us this is idiomatic, figurative, not an actual time statement?

Much love!

I guess I missed this question of yours.

This expression 'before the world existed' is not as accurate as 'before the foundation of the world' as used in other many translations. And this means stunningly to most, before the creation of the first man and not the universe or the earth. The 'world' in this expression means the world of mankind and not the earth. See what happens when we try using a modern view in scripture as being plain jane. We get all twisted up.

It pertained here to the plan of God in existence before the 1st Adam, period. And this plan included Yahshua the Messiah the Christ to be born at a specific point in time and perform specific tasks for our salvation. He was and still is the centerpiece and the image of God in love for us and creation.

Christ said in John 17:5 .'..the glory he had before the foundation of the world' This idiom and expression means that Christ knew that in his Fathers' plan of our restoration to himself, he was (he had) to be glorified at the earthly exit of his mission, after he was created ('came down from heaven' as in created by the HS, another idiom that I've already defined in this commentary) and yes @Johann as you asked marks to ask me, the Son was created as I already said.

Christ was NOT saying he was there when the Father's plan of restoration was set into motion at all.

And to your specific question. There are other scripture that use 'before the foundation of the world' (people) as the secret plan of God:

Ephesians 1:3-6, 2:10 (prepared before hand); Matthew 13:35, 25: 34-40; 1 Peter 1:19-20; Rev 13:8; John 17:24; Hebrews 4:3

 

[Waiting on him]

I've not yet found your substantiation for this assertion yet.

"Before the world existed", where else do you see this expression in Scripture, in a context that tells us this is idiomatic, figurative, not an actual time statement?

Much love!

John 18:20 KJV
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

 

[Waiting on him]

Gods creation began in the first century with His first born Christ Jesus.

 

[Waiting on him]

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
This world began in the first century, Christ being the first born of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

When was Christ born?


Colossians 1:15 KJV
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


First century.