Taken
Well-Known Member
Requiring an Advocate (Expressly Jesus), means you SILL SIN.
Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Requiring an Advocate (Expressly Jesus), means you SILL SIN.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The very point I made earlier... ↓↓↓
That's not the only will of God for the believer, lol. Besides, willingly living in habitual, purposeful sin day after day just like you did before you (supposedly) got born again is not what "BELIEVE on the ONE that He sent" looks like. That person's life shows they have not satisfied God's will in regard to 'believing on the one that he sent', let alone satisfying God's will in regard to how to live.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I think it was BB.
Matthew 25:31-46 shows us that God will be boasting about our righteous works, not us:.
"35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" Matthew 25:35-36
So, no danger of the righteous boasting about their righteous works. The danger is in us not having any righteous works for the Lord to boast about.
I didn't say Eve was "only deceived," as in did not sin. I said, only Eve was deceived, as opposed to Adam. To clarify, she did not deliberately disobey God, but she surely did sin. But Adam's disobedience was what plunged the world into sin. So, what you way about me is in error. And this is certainly not the first time for that... :)
Sure. See above. But even this does not say that Eve sinned, actually. She did, but she fell into sin, as in became dead in her sin with Adam. Again, she did sin, but even this verse in 1 Timothy, written by Paul, does not say she committed a sin, per se. She became dead in her sin, took on the same sinful nature that Adam did, in Genesis 3.
Sorry to ruin your "gotcha" moment... :)
Grace and peace to you.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Well, making it personal is a standard tactic by those who hold to your belief. If your belief cannot be supported with Scripture make it about the individual instead.
It is written,
5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).
In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not). Personally, I believe you have your priorities wrong. You appear to be allowing outside experience to rule your judgment instead of seeking to obey God's Word. For you automatically assume I am doing the wrong thing when you do not know me or my life. Do you honestly think Enoch lusted after women all the time, and yet the Lord took him whereby he did not see death? How about the 144,000?
The problem with your belief is that you are not accepting the plain words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28. Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Jesus says that we not only have to receive Him, but we have to receive His words, too. For Jesus says in John chapter 12,
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48).
So Jesus says here that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day. I am encouraging you friend to accept the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28 so as to help you for your own benefit.
Peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord.
Not surprised.
Everybody learns from somebody, right BH? So, the same to you.
And they would be wrong.
That they are. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nope. Not in any way. With all due respect, BH, that's a stupid thing to say.
Yes it certainly does, but it also says, quite clearly that there's a Way to avoid having to pay those wages.
Nope. Not at all.
Sure, but you forgot that little comma after "Christ Jesus." The rest of the verse is an appositive (a phrase follows another noun or noun phrase in apposition to it; that is, it provides information that further identifies or defines it). And this appositive phrase refers to those in Christ Jesus. They walk after the Spirit and not in the flesh because they are in Christ Jesus.
I agree! No "OSASer" worth his or her salt thinks otherwise.
Absolutely. Again, no "OSASer" worth his or her salt thinks otherwise.
BH, this fate ~ the second death ~ is God's condemnation. Those who are in Christ Jesus, having been born again of the Spirit, may still, in this life, experience dire consequences for sin. But they will not be condemned by God, because He, because of his mercy and compassion, His grace, has placed that person in Christ Jesus. If He were to condemn the person in this way after having given him new life in the Spirit and placing him in Christ, God would actually be condemning Christ. Perish that thought.
Sure. Absolutely.
Good.
If/when it happens, I will. :)
I respect your opinion.
Again, I respect your opinions. There are all sorts of folks out there who believe all kinds of things, right? :)
Grace and peace to you.
Bible Highlighter said: ↑
For the wages of sin is death.
That they are. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
WOW! .....talk about “Nailing” a False, Perverted “ Gospel” —— A wise man would simply shut his mouth after that mouth was Proven to be this confused and ignorant.....I’m not going to get my hopes up...
For the wages of sin is death.
That they are. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
WOW! .....talk about “Nailing” a False, Perverted “ Gospel” —— A wise man would simply shut his mouth after that mouth was Proven to be this confused and ignorant.....I’m not going to get my hopes up...
You have quote marks....but those are your words.
Where is a OSAS believer saying that?
Red herring!
I think it was BB.
Lol.......It sure “ Sounds “ like something that S.O.B would say ! ( before you get your panties in a knot, “ SOB stands for “ Sons Of Belial” —- your False thinking about me)
Where is a OSAS believer saying that?
Red herring!
I think it was BB.
Lol.......It sure “ Sounds “ like something that S.O.B would say ! ( before you get your panties in a knot, “ SOB stands for “ Sons Of Belial” —- your False thinking about me)
One does NOT “ stop sinning” to avoid Hell .....one STARTS Believing.....have you ever read the Bible ? I mean, talk about Christianity 101 !
So am I to presume that Abraham , David, Moses , etc were never Saved? Interesting.I guess Abraham being JUSTIFIED by his Faith was some kind of printing error...
Bible Highlighter go to biblehub and look at the Greek for the word nature in Ephesians 2:3,
Thayer in His Greek lexicon says the word nature is defined as born nature.
But, but, this Greek word has multiple meanings.
Thayer goes on to define "nature" as:
"A mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature.
Paul is not teaching a born in sin nature.
Paul is teaching they by nature of habit are sinful.
Ephesians 2:3,
-among whom also we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature(long habit) children of wrath, just as the others.
Not born with a sin nature, habitulized into a sinful lifestyle.
These gentiles were said not to have a sin nature,
Romans 2:14,
-for when Gentiles who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law(obey Gods law) these although not having law, are a law to themselves.
Where is these gentiles totally depraved sin nature?
They are obeying Gods law!
Their nature is not sinful!
Next verse you quoted,
No, no, no
We do not inherit a fallen nature from Adam.
We create our own nature by the choices in life we make.
1Corinthians 15:22,
-for in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
What did we all inherit as a cause of Adam's sin according to this verse?
Answer: Physical death.
We only suffer the consequences of Adam's sin. Not his sin transferred to us!
The consequence of Adams sin is physical death.
That is what all recieve as a consequence of Adam's sin.
Sin is never transferred from one individual to another.
But the consequences of my Dads sin can effect generations of his family to come.
Smoking is sinfull.
If dad smokes and son dies of long cancer by second hand smoke.
The fathers sin was not accounted to the son.
The consequences of the fathers sin was "inherited" by his son.
If Adam and Eve had not sinned against God. They would have physically lived forever.
Their sin caused them and as a consequence every man to die physically.
Paul is speaking of the immorality of man.
Just look at the verses preceding verse 22,
Verse 21.,
-for since by man(Adam) came death,
-by man(Jesus) also came the ressurection of the dead.
Clearly you can see that Adam is physical death.
Jesus is ressurected from a dead physical body to life.
The ressurection of the dead, is not spiritual death but physical dead bodies being ressurected to life.
There are 2 conditions in play; “hear” and “believe”!
Of COURSE one has to “ hear” and “ Believe” ....That is the POINT, Nimrod! If one hears and believes he is ALREADY SAVED —- He can NEVER come under Condemnation—- He has passed from Death to life .....Was anybody saying anything different? ...you have dodged the meaning and intent of the verse once again.....YOU need to explain what “ NEVER” means in the verse and also what “ALREADY HAS “ their Salvation means.....of course, you can’t do it without admitting you are+wrong....the verse simply can’t be argued against if you have a functioning brain....can you say, “BUSTED?”
Of COURSE one has to “ hear” and “ Believe” ....That is the POINT, Nimrod! If one hears and believes he is ALREADY SAVED —- He can NEVER come under Condemnation—- He has passed from Death to life .....Was anybody saying anything different? ...you have dodged the meaning and intent of the verse once again.....YOU need to explain what “ NEVER” means in the verse and also what “ALREADY HAS “ their Salvation means.....of course, you can’t do it without admitting you are+wrong....the verse simply can’t be argued against if you have a functioning brain....can you say, “BUSTED?”
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Actually, my learning on this topic was not from men, but it was from the Anointing.
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
I meant they are minor compared to the Lake of Fire.
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
God's grace is not a license for immorality or lasciviousness (See: Jude 1:4). This applies to both versions of OSAS (Hyper Grace OSAS and OSAS lite). For Hyper Grace OSAS teaches you can sin as much as you want or live like the devil and you are saved by a belief alone in Jesus. OSAS Lite teaches you cannot practice sin (Whatever that means), and yet they think they are slaves to sinning on some level the rest of their lives based on an erroneous interpretation of 1 John 1:8, when the Bible says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
It's not because both the Hyper Grace OSAS folk, and OSAS lite individuals justify the idea that they can abide in sin and be saved. No OSAS person thinks they will overcome sin in this life, and yet they think they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus (despite any sin they may do). All OSAS believers think that all future sin is paid for. This makes no sense because you have to confess of sin to be forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9 (cf. 1 John 2:1).
Believers are to overcome sin in this life. Try re-reading Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1 very slowly in the King James Bible.
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
You believe it is a faith alone in Jesus as your savior or the finished work of the cross (i.e. Perpetual Belief Alone-ism). While faith starts off as a belief alone in being saved by God's grace without works (Initial Salvation) (i.e. Temporal Belief Alone-ism), we know that faith does not remain as a belief alone according to the Bible.
For example:
2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.
John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.
G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
In addition, the OSAS version of grace teaches you can sin and still be saved on some level.
But the Bible teaches that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
You are going to have to do better than making statements like this if you want to convince people that OSAS is not a license to sin when compared to reading and believing the Bible, my friend.
I was not quoting the verse verbatim. I was loosely quoting the verse from memory. But comma or no comma, it's saying the same thing. For if I were to read you this verse, you would not be able to hear the comma in it. The idea here is that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit. As I said before, even OSAS lite believers believe they will always sin this side of Heaven (even if they say they don't practice sin). The fact that they are making a future declaration that they will sin this side of Heaven is showing that they are running contrary to Romans 8:1 because their future walk in this life is headed towards sin (By their very words saying they will always sin this side of Heaven). However, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 does not allow for this false thinking that they must sin this side of Heaven (even if they don't practice sin - whatever that means). They are still justifying sin or walking after the flesh by the OSAS mantra that says that they will always sin this side of Heaven (with them erroneously pointing to 1 John 1:8 out of its context).
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
I disagree. See above explanation and read the verses I put forth to you.
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
If God condemns a believer who was previously born again, it's because they are choosing to no longer believe God's Word. Sin is not of the faith. The Bible says that whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). For faith is how a person accesses God's saving grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). For by grace are ye saved through faith. No faith, and there is no grace (Unless you believe in Universalism).
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
I can only hope it is sooner rather than later (of course).
Bible Highlighter said:
You said:
There are some topics I can say this on issues that are not so clear, but on this topic, I would not say I respect the OSAS viewpoint because it justifies sin and evil (even though I am sure you don't see it that way).
You said:
Thank you for the kind words. Although we disagree strongly on this topic, may God's grace and peace be upon you, as well.
YOU CAN NEVER MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
You correct me by saying you did not say Eve did not sin here,
Now as the norm with you, you contradict yourself and say she did not sin here,
You are the King of doublespeak.
You correct me by saying you did not say Eve did not sin here,
Now as the norm with you, you contradict yourself and say she did not sin here,
You are the King of doublespeak.
Taken
Well-Known Member
And YOU might be a “ Poor Student Of The Word” and not know it —- which turns out to be the case....
Romans 10:13 —— “Anybody that ASKS to be Saved, WILL BE Saved”
“ ALL that ASK for Mercy shall receive it!”
Are you starting to see a “Trend” here? The Starting Point” Of Christianity is seeing the NEED for Mercy ....the NEED for a Savior....That was the ENTIRE POINT of the Law.... it was Given to “ shut you up” and get you to admit that you can’t and don’t keep it! ....You MUST be shown Grace...You MUST have a Savior! Turn to that Savior ( the True Repentance That Saves) and get ALL of your sins Forgiven....” Turn to Me and I will Turn to you......Have YOU Turned to God as a Lost Sinner ?
The silly and the confused think that they can “ keep the Law” in order to get Saved...they can’t.....it’s a “Fool’s Errand” anyway....even if they kept every “jot and tittle” , they will discover that they were barking up the wrong tree....why? “ By The Works Of The Law, NO FLESH will be JUSTIFIED ! Get with the latest Biblical Program to be Saved in this Present Age Of Grace..... REST in Paul’s Gospel Of Pure Grace ( Given to Him by Jesus) .....Find it in 1Cor15:1-4.....
Sorry to say this, but I think this kind of belief is not just unbiblical but shameful, careless and dirty in its entire content. Imagine a person who thinks he was already saved and destined to heaven no matter what he will do, whether he do evil or not. Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,
“this guy” (Alan “Rick” Knapp) “teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him.“
And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;
“Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for every sin, so how can I or you be judged by GOD for a sin when the penalty was already paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”
Hmmmmm....maybe my OSAS Doctrine is Wrong....surely a Saved man could not do these things and continue to be Saved anymore than a man that “ rapes and murders 1000 times a day”can still be Saved, as Martin Luther proposed.....maybe I’ll take a well- deserved break for a while and rethink things....maybe....
In the meantime, I know how a man can do ALL of these things and even MUCH WORSE and “ Get Away With It !”
“ How?” You ask? Simple.....all I have to do is borrow a page from your OWN ” playbook”.......How ironic that you never see it.....I can commit the most atrocious evils and just do whatever I want to do.....as long as I REPENT of those or any other Wicked Sins before I die, I’m “ good to go”......
The End Result Of “YOUR” Confused Doctrine is no different from mine....A man can be Saved even after sinning all that he wants....just choose one of the two options....the result is the same...personally, since receiving my New Heart , I don’t WANT to Sin..... it’s all part of being a “ New Creation”....
The murderer in question was no more a Christian than Putin or Castro .....That King Of wickedness , Putin went to “ church “ on Easter and Fidel always maintained that “ he “ was a Christian ...
Hogwash! They and this mass murderer may have had a stupid “ head” knowledge about what Christianity was.....he apparently knew all the right words....but I would bet my bottom dollar that he was never “ born again”......Theoretically, If he really “was” a born again Believer , I think God would have struck him dead before he committed his terrible act....God struck dead a lot of people who did far less....
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That's not the only will of God for the believer, lol.
Of course not....It is God's Will for His Children to grow in many ways....but when it comes to Salvation, it * IS* His only Will.....Do you put your TOTAL Faith in “ The One that He sent ?” If you simply do THAT you are Saved......or perhaps you think John 3:16 is a lie.
Of course not....It is God's Will for His Children to grow in many ways....but when it comes to Salvation, it * IS* His only Will.....Do you put your TOTAL Faith in “ The One that He sent ?” If you simply do THAT you are Saved......or perhaps you think John 3:16 is a lie.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I started this thread here on Original Sin so as not to derail this one.
Side Note:
First, while God has guided me on rare occasion to look at a Greek word, I am not into Greek Lexicons as a normative way of understanding the Bible. I primarily read my Bible in the English and not Greek. I believe the original languages says the same thing as the English. Second, Thayer (of the Greek Lexicon you use) was a Unitarian, and he denied biblical inerrancy, and denied the second visible coming of Jesus Christ. So I would not drink from his well seeing he was in such great error. You can merely Google this information on Thayer for yourself to learn more.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
First, you quoted Titus and not me in regards to this write up.
I originally posted this write up involving George Sodini. So it would have been more fitting or appropriate if you quoted me and not another who did not provide this write up.
Second, you act like George Sodini was not saved and then you turn around and say that someone like him could have been saved if God struck him dead before committing this horrible act. If the guy had a murderous heart, that is all that it would take to condemn him. You then say that either Titus or my doctrine is no different than yours in that if we repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord), we are good to go to Heaven (Which implies you don’t have to do that). Actually, no. We have to not only confess of our sins, but we must also forsake our sins, too (See: Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). That’s not so easy for everyone to do. But without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). So no. Our beliefs are not the same. You teach a sin and still be saved type belief and you don’t seem to be shocked by what George Sodini did in the name of OSAS. I mean, what do you do with verses like Matthew 7:22-23, and Matthew 7:26-27. I can only imagine how you distort them to fit your wrong view of the Lord and His goodness. If you believe you can sin and still be saved, and you don’t see the moral problem in that, then your religion is no different than that of a sociopath who has no moral compass to guide him.
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