Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

This was to be that time, but you have not received it.

So be it.

I was referring to the time of the Judgment when the Lord Jesus will reveal all things. I know Jesus will not agree with OSAS and or your lack of being able to defend such a belief using the Bible. If you want to take your chances on a non-existent belief like OSAS (that justifies sin and evil), that is your own choice and risk, but you cannot say I did not warn you or show you the truth with the Bible.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Bible highliter is as usual, wrong about everything. Calvinism is Biblical.

 

[farouk]

When you read Philippians 2:13 you cannot ignore Philippians 2:12 that says for you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So you are ignoring parts of the Bible to make Calvinism work.

The word there in 2.12 means deliverance.

In any case, it's not the merit of our works that counts, but God's grace working in us.

Ephesians 2.8-9

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bible highliter is as usual, wrong about everything. Calvinism is Biblical.

The 5 points of Calvinism come from the canons of Dort. You take down the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) with the Bible, and it all falls down like a house of cards because that is the core of what Calvinism is about.

Calvinist Point #1 - Total Depravity (or Total Inability):

This point is basically saying that man is spiritually dead and has no ability to come to the god of Calvinism on his own without a regeneration from the god of Calvinism in order to make the person alive to be able to be be illuminated, and be saved.

First, it may surprise you that I believe in “Original Sin” (Not the Calvinistic version). I believe “Original Sin” is essentially saying that sin and or the sin nature has tainted humanity after Adam's fall. Ephesians 2:3 says we are by nature children of wrath. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” But the fallen nature that comes from Adam is not a total corruption of the human will whereby they cannot respond to God. We have free will to come to Christ on His terms (According to His Word), whereby God will then regenerate us (or convert us) (i.e. to born again spiritually) in order for us to be a new creature in Christ whereby all things become new (See: 2 Corinthians 5:17). For God argued with Cain in doing good (Genesis 4:7), and yet Cain was said to be of that wicked one (1 John 3:12). Meaning, Cain had a choice to either do good or sin. It's why God tried to convince him to not sin (Read all of Genesis 4 to get the full story).

Second, the Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40). Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you can come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you will come to Christ. Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . .how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37). Here again notice, He did not say, "How often would I have gathered you together, but you could not." No. He said, "Ye would not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would. Revelation 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible, says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely ." If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me." why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me."? The only thing that stands between the sinner and salvation is the sinner's will. God made every man a free moral agent; And God never burglarizes the human will.

Calvinist Point #2 - Unconditional Election:

This point is basically saying that the god of Calvinism Elects some to salvation based on no conditions found within the individual and those who are lost are either Non-Elected or they are Elected to Reprobation (Damnation). While Adam did make all men sinners, the god of Calvinism simply chooses to blame Adam's children for Adam's sin and not give them a chance to redeem themselves. The god of Calvinism would rather create the majority of mankind for the express purpose to simply be tortured eternally in hellfire to the good council of his will.

Again, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing not because the god of Calvinism did not Elect them to salvation but because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. This is the reason why they are perishing. Again, no conditions exist when the god of Calvinism elects a person. No reason is to be given as to why they are perishing. It's called UNconditional Election. There are no conditions as to why they are saved or not saved. The god of Calvinism simply just chooses based on no conditions. This is contrary to what we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. Jonah 3:10 is also another big one that refutes Unconditional Election. It is clearly talking about how God changed His mind or relented on not bringing destruction upon the Ninevites based on the fact that they had forsaken their evil ways. Also, Psalms 7:11. It says that God is angry at the wicked every day. This makes absolutely no sense involving the god of Calvinism. The real GOD of the Bible gets angry at the wicked because they have a free will choice to choose God and do what is good and yet they don't do so (Hence why God is angry). But the god of Calvinism makes God out to be like the incredible Hulk when he is on one of those uncontrollable anger rampages that destroys entire cities. Why cannot the god of Calvinism just elect men to salvation and have them do good? Why is the god of Calvinism angry? Is not the god of Calvinism sovereign over all things?

Calvinist Point #3 - Limited Atonement:

This point is basically saying that the Calvin version of Jesus only died for the Elect and he did not die for the sins of the whole world (i.e. the majority of human life).

This is easily refuted by 2 Peter 2:1, and 1 John 2:2. 2 Peter 2:1 says there are false teachers who deny the Lord who have bought them. Obviously false teachers are not saved, and yet the Lord has bought them. So either the Bible is teaching the Provisional Atonement or Universalism. Seeing Universalism (the salvation of the righteous and the wicked) is clearly a false teaching, we must conclude 2 Peter 2:1 is referring to the Provisional Atonement. 1 John 2:2 says that Christ is not only the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. The Calvinist would have me believe that the words “whole world” is in reference to a very small chosen Elect few. Whole world does not sound like the minority or a small group. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. So the FEW are the Elect, right? If I talk about the whole world, you are not thinking of just a few people or some small group. So Calvinism is distorting the actual words in Scripture in order to make it's theology work. Also, a Calvinist preacher who says to a crowd that they can be saved is lying to them because most of them most likely cannot be saved because only a few will be saved. The Non-Elect are not capable of being saved and so the Calvinist preacher is lying to these Non-Elect.

(Continued in next post):
(Note: Source link for one paragraph I used in this post is provided in my next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinist Point #4 - Irresistible Grace:

This point is basically saying that the grace of the god of Calvinism cannot be resisted. But you have Calvinists who doubt their experience in being saved by Calvinistic grace, and they question whether this experience was genuine because they are not living that holy life. There are Calvinists who believe they may be one of the Non-Elect and are doomed to hell. Yet, some of them still defend Calvinism (even when their god of Calvinism has abandoned them).

Paul tells the Corinthians not to receive the grace of God in vain and then Paul talks about how we are not to be unevenly yoked with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14). As a part of not receiving the grace of God in vain: We are to give no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed; We are also to in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God (See: 2 Corinthians 6:3-10). Galatians 5:4 says, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” So according to Galatians 5:4, a person can fall from grace. So grace is not irresistible according to the Bible.

Calvinist Point #5 - Perseverance of the Saints:

This point (also referred to as eternal security as well as the similar but distinct doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved") is a teaching that asserts that once a person is truly "born again by the god of Calvinism,” or “regenerated by him,” nothing in heaven or earth shall be able to separate (them) from the love of the god of Calvinism (Romans 8:39) resulting in a reversal of their converted condition. Note: Please take note that I am aware that there are Non-Calvinists who hold to Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS).

Anyways, here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:
(Thereby refuting this point within Calvinism):

Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:11-15
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as the Calvinist says.


Source used for one paragraph on the point involving Total Inability:
http://www.victorybaptistmg.org/Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism.pdf

 

[PinSeeker]

Either you are not reading Genesis 3 or you have distorted it beyond recognition...

With all due respect to you, personally, BH, I think the same of you.

...to defend your sin and still be saved belief in OSAS.

This is not OSAS at all, BH, and that's the problem. No one is defending anyone's sin, and none of us is defending in any way our sin. But we are saved despite our indefensible sin; there is no longer condemnation from God for our sin. That doesn't mean God is now "okay" with our sin ~ or that we should be, or that we now have license to sin; all of these things are perfectly ridiculous notions ~ or that there are no longer any consequences for it, but no condemnation from God for those who are in Christ.

The sin of the fall of mankind did not go into effect until Adam disobeyed.

Well, the effect of Adam's sin of disobedience.

But that does not mean Eve did not sin and did not later die spiritually.

Sure. All I'm saying is that it was Adam's sin that really precipitated the fall. He is the federal head of the human race.

It was by Eve being deceived that led her to convince her husband to also be deceived.

Adam was not deceived. As Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 11:3, the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning." Adam could have helped her from her being deceived but did not. I am not saying Eve did not sin, because she, like Adam, heard God's words of Genesis 2:17 also. But Adam was not deceived. There is nothing in the text of Genesis 3 to say Adam was "convinced" by Eve. He merely willingly took the fruit and ate. He actively disobeyed God. He was not deceived.

It does not undo the lie by the serpent that he was trying to push upon both Adam and Eve.

Of course it doesn't. Nobody is suggesting that. Do you not believe Adam and Eve both died the very day ~ the very moment, really ~ they ate of the fruit? You know, as God told them explicitly they would? And then plunged the human race into that state from birth? If not, we need to talk about who actually believes Satan's deception, whose beliefs are actually dumb. :) But you do go on to say, "Seeing Adam lived on afterwards to be chased out of the garden and bear children, we can assume that Adam died spiritually the day he disobeyed God’s command (Which is sin)." Well, great! I'm trackin' with ya 100% there! :) But if you think "OSASers" don't believe that ~ at least the right ones, because there are some "OSASers" who buy into antinomianism, and they're terribly wrong ~ then you should rethink what you "think" about "OSASers."

So the devil is teaching in the Garden from the beginning that you can sin and still be saved, and you have bought into that lie, hook line, and sinker (Because that is what OSAS teaches).

Well, the devil is deceiving, not really "teaching," but we can let that go. :) But one cannot go on living in sin ~ which does not mean "being sinless," but rather striving against sin, and asking forgiveness for our sin, which we in Christ are exhorted over and over and over again throughout the New Testament to do. But if you think someone who is in Christ can still fall into condemnation from God for sin once he/she has been born again of the Spirit and placed in Christ or can be separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus, then you are refuting the entirety of Romans 8.

Romans 8:38-39 is in context to those who love God (Romans 8:28). Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Jesus says if you keep His commandments you will abide in His love (John 15:10). In addition, Romans 8:38-39 does not mention “you” or “your sin” in this passage, either. So you can choose to remove yourself from the love of God or your sin can do so. Romans 8:38-39 is describing external things that cannot separate you from God. So this is not a good argument for the false doctrine of OSAS.

It says "anything else in all creation." That includes the self. Woodenly speaking, yes, one can "remove himself/herself" from the love of God, but that means they were never in the love of God in the first place, that they only thought they were in the love of God. The one's being in the love of God (or not) depends on God, and not the one. If one is actually in the love of God, he/she will never be separated from it; God promises to never leave or forsake us. We should take Him at His Word.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

I was referring to the time of the Judgment when the Lord Jesus will reveal all things. I know Jesus will not agree with OSAS and or your lack of being able to defend such a belief using the Bible. If you want to take your chances on a non-existent belief like OSAS (that justifies sin and evil), that is your own choice and risk, but you cannot say I did not warn you or show you the truth with the Bible.

And now I will refine my comment:

This is that time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The word there in 2.12 means deliverance.

My Bible says “work out” [i.e. fully complete - AMPC Translation, make an end of - GNV Translation] your salvation with fear and trembling in Philippians 2:12. So we are to work out, fully complete, or make an end of our salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? This aligns with 2 Corinthians 7:1, and 1 Timothy 6:12, and other verses.

In any case, it's not the merit of our works that counts, but God's grace working in us.

No doubt God’s grace can make a believer to labor more than others like the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:10, but this is not in the Calvinistic sense whereby God forces you to do good against your own free will.

Ephesians 2.8-9

Is talking about Initial Salvation. It’s not referring to how you never have to do any good works ever after you are saved by God’s grace as a part of God’s plan of salvation. I will provide you the verses in my next post.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The word there in 2.12 means deliverance.

In any case, it's not the merit of our works that counts, but God's grace working in us.

Ephesians 2.8-9

Works For Salvation Verses (After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
   
   
2. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
   
   
3. 10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
   
   
6. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
   
   
8. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
   
   
10. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
13. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
    
    
14. “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).4). …………………………………………………………………………..
15. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With all due respect to you, personally, BH, I think the same of you.

Sorry, I don’t see how that is possible. I believe you learned OSAS from those who taught you this and so that is the lens you have chosen to look at the Bible through.

This is not OSAS at all, BH, and that's the problem. No one is defending anyone's sin, and none of us is defending in any way our sin. But we are saved despite our indefensible sin; there is no longer condemnation from God for our sin. That doesn't mean God is now "okay" with our sin ~ or that we should be, or that we now have license to sin; all of these things are perfectly ridiculous notions ~ or that there are no longer any consequences for it, but no condemnation from God for those who are in Christ.

I am aware that some OSAS Proponents believe there are consequences to sin, but these consequences are minor (like loss of rewards, or chastening in this life), and they are not the kind of consequences that lead to the Lake of Fire (Which is the second death). For the wages of sin is death.

But yes. OSAS folk are defending sin because if the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death (and it does), and the OSAS Proponent is saying that is not the case in the fact that they say they can sin and still be saved, then they are defending evil or sin.

Oh, and by the way, when you quote Romans 8:1, read it in the King James Bible. It will give you the full version of that verse. It says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So you cannot walk after sin or the flesh otherwise you are under the condemnation. For John 3:19-21 talks about the Condemnation further. John 3:20 says all who do evil hate the light. The light is the real Jesus of the Bible and not false OSAS version that teaches that there is no real dire consequences (with the Lake of Fire) involving one’s sin.

Well, the effect of Adam's sin of disobedience.
Sure. All I'm saying is that it was Adam's sin that really precipitated the fall. He is the federal head of the human race.

Adam passed on two things to his descendants.

#1. Physical death (for most).
#2. Sin nature (in being children of wrath that can only be broken by being born again by Jesus).

Adam was not deceived. As Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 11:3, the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning." Adam could have helped her from her being deceived but did not. I am not saying Eve did not sin, because she, like Adam, heard God's words of Genesis 2:17 also. But Adam was not deceived. There is nothing in the text of Genesis 3 to say Adam was "convinced" by Eve. He merely willingly took the fruit and ate. He actively disobeyed God. He was not deceived.

Yes, I forgot about this other verse. So I was incorrect by my words on that point. I am willing to admit when I wrong when faced with Scripture. So I would agree with you on this point. But seeing I am willing to admit when I am wrong in light of God’s Word, I don’t believe you can do that. For you cannot read all of Scripture and also believe in OSAS. One has to slice and dice Scripture to make OSAS work. Plus, in OSAS: It’s enticing to think that a person can sin and still be saved. Who does not want to have an easy way of salvation with doing nothing for God and in justifying sin in this life with also getting the keys to Heaven? But that does not sound like the narrow way that Jesus talked about.

Of course it doesn't. Nobody is suggesting that. Do you not believe Adam and Eve both died the very day ~ the very moment, really ~ they ate of the fruit? You know, as God told them explicitly they would? And then plunged the human race into that state from birth? If not, we need to talk about who actually believes Satan's deception, whose beliefs are actually dumb. :) But you do go on to say, "Seeing Adam lived on afterwards to be chased out of the garden and bear children, we can assume that Adam died spiritually the day he disobeyed God’s command (Which is sin)." Well, great! I'm trackin' with ya 100% there! :) But if you think "OSASers" don't believe that ~ at least the right ones, because there are some "OSASers" who buy into antinomianism, and they're terribly wrong ~ then you should rethink what you "think" about "OSASers."

I have not interviewed all OSAS Proponents on the planet and their view of what Satan was selling in the Garden to Eve. I am sure I will get all kinds of views. But I have posted about 62,000 posts approximately over the past 12 years on various different Christian forums, and I remember having many discussions on the false teaching of OSAS, and I have refuted (using the Bible) their lame attempts at re-writing Scripture.

In my many discussions with OSAS folk: I understand there are two different types of OSAS Christians.
Note: I used to think there were 3 categories of OSAS type believers, but now I believe there are only 2.

There is Hyper Grace OSAS which teaches that a believer can sin as much as they want and live like the devil and be saved all because they have a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior. I have even talked with a believer in person who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they would be saved while they did so (hypothetically speaking of course).

Then there is the OSAS Lite Version which says they don’t practice sin (Whatever that means), and yet they cannot stop sinning this side of Heaven based on a false misunderstanding on 1 John 1:8. Many of them believe that any acts of righteousness are filthy rags according to an incorrect view of Isaiah 64:6. Again, this is still a license to sin and do evil because the Bible talks about how we were servants to sin (or slaves to sin) as a part of our past life (Romans 6:20). Believers are now slaves to righteousness (Romans 6:18). Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. So even the OSAS Lite folk are defending sin. For I have not run into any OSAS believers who hold to a view of Sinless Perfectionism in order for OSAS to be true.

Anyways, when I confronted OSAS folks about Satan’s lie in the Garden, they think that his deception (to break God’s command and not die) does not apply to New Covenant believers.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I am aware that some OSAS Proponents believe there are consequences to sin, but these consequences are minor (like loss of rewards, or chastening in this life), and they are not the kind of consequences that lead to the Lake of Fire (Which is the second death). For the wages of sin is death.

But yes. OSAS folk are defending sin because if the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death (and it does), and the OSAS Proponent is saying that is not the case in the fact that they say they can sin and still be saved, then they are defending evil or sin.
.

so are you saying you no longer sin???

 

[farouk]

so are you saying you no longer sin???

We have an Advocate with the Father....(1 John)

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

We have an Advocate with the Father....(1 John)

having an Advocate doesnt mean you dont still sin….

 

[farouk]

having an Advocate doesnt mean you dont still sin….

I was thinking more along the lines of our Advocate being the solution, by His grace...

 

[Gregory]

1930


No.

It’s so our Father can be glorified!

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)

That was Jesus speaking!

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14)

Why is it that OSAS people always refer to good works as "something to give someone something to BOAST ABOUT"?

Are you so apt to boast about your good works, that you stop doing, and fight against doing good works?

I agree with Michiahh Imla. We do goods works to please and glorify the Father. Our good works glorify the Father and the Son because those that receive the benefits of good works and are supported in their trials, is done in the name of Jesus Christ. These people know that it is because of the Father and the Son that they are relieved of their burden, and they glorify God for the relief. Hopefully, they pay forward and help others in the name of Jesus Christ and the Father and Son are further glorified.

We do not boast about our wonderful good works. So get back into the game and help the Father and the Son to relief the burdens of the poor and needy.

 

[Titus]

Jesus did not say whoever is not baptized will be condemned

Really?
As I already proved your gospel is salvation by disobedience.
And You just confirmed it.
You proved my accusation correct.

The apostles are Jesus' spokesman, Mark 16:20,
-And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs, Amen.

Whatever the apostles commanded was not their commandments.
All commandments given by the apostles are the commandments of Jesus Christ's gospel.

You don't believe in Jesus' word.
You lack faith in what Jesus taught.
You are in unbelief!
Water immersion is a direct command!

Acts 10:47-48,
-Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
-And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Now here is a direct command from Jesus, that you will disobey and TELL JESUS ON JUDGMENT THAT YOU DID NOT HAVE TO OBEY HIM!

You said it Dan!
"mailmandan, post: 1303008, member: 8550"]Jesus did not say whoever is not baptized will be condemned

Your gospel is a gospel of salvation by disobedience!
You just taught a person can believe ie Faith only and disobey the commandment to be baptized.
Fact: if faith only saves, you are teaching someone can disobey Jesus' commandments and NEVER BE BAPTIZED AND STILL BE SAVED!

You tell Jesus you dont have to obey His commandments on judgment and see what God says to you,
Matthew 7:21-23
-Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

You teach a false doctrine of disobedient LAWLESSNESS!
-And I will declare to them, I never knew you(Dan) depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness.

Mark 16:15-16 ,Danthemailman's rejection of Jesus' commandments.
-He who believes and does not obey Jesus' command to be baptized will be saved;
But he who does not believe only and obeys His commandment to be baptized will be condemned.
-

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Really?
As I already proved your gospel is salvation by disobedience.
And You just confirmed it.
You proved my accusation correct.

The apostles are Jesus' spokesman, Mark 16:20,
-And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs, Amen.

Whatever the apostles commanded was not there commandments.
All commandments given by the apostles are the commandments of Jesus Christ's gospel.

You don't believe in Jesus' word.
You lack faith in what Jesus taught.
You are in unbelief!
Water immersion is a direct command!

Acts 10:47-48,
-Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
-And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Now here is a direct command from Jesus, that you will disobey and TELL JESUS ON JUDGMENT THAT YOU DID NOT HAVE TO OBEY HIM!

You said it Dan!
"mailmandan, post: 1303008, member: 8550"]Jesus did not say whoever is not baptized will be condemned

Your gospel is a gospel of salvation by disobedience!
You just taught a person can believe ie Faith only and disobey the commandment to be baptized.
Fact: if faith only saves, you are teaching someone can disobey Jesus' commandments and NEVER BE BAPTIZED AND STILL BE SAVED!

You tell Jesus you dont have to obey His commandments on judgment and see what God says to you,
Matthew 7:21-23
-Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

You teach a false doctrine of disobedient LAWLESSNESS!
-And I will declare to them, I never knew you(Dan) depart from Me, you who practise lawlessness.

Mark 16:15-16 ,Danthemailman's rejection of Jesus' commandments.
-He who believes and does not obey Jesus' command to be baptized will be saved;
But he who does not believe only and obeys His commandment to be baptized will be condemned.
-

wait… so you think you have to be baptized to be saved??

 

[Titus]

Pinseeker teaches Adam sinned Eve was only deceived.
This is Error,
Both Adam and Eve sinned,

Not at all. The sin was really Adam's, as he was the one who disobeyed. He could have corrected Eve in her having been deceived, but did not

1Timothy 2:14,
-And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into sin.
The both commited sin

 

[Titus]

wait… so you think you have to be baptized to be saved??

Hey Lifelong sinner!!!!

Of course, Jesus is where I learned this from, Mark 16:15-16 ; John 3:5,
-Jesus answered, Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Taken]

Why is it that OSAS people always refer to good works as "something to give someone something to BOAST ABOUT"?

You have quote marks....but those are your words.
Where is a OSAS believer saying that?
Red herring!