Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Happy Trails]

“Still trying to justify disobedience”....

“Still” implies you have evidence of your claim...that you render with a charge...of false.
Why fail to verify your claim?
Quote me regarding your claim.[/QUOTE]


All of your posts make the argument that you do not feel any obligation to obey the Torah. You feel that the Law never applied to you and that you see nothing good in it.

Your entire position is founded on antinomianism.

That would be justifying disobedience.

 

[Happy Trails]

People that REST in the Finished Work Of The Cross know how to “Sabbath” or REST every day....THIS is what God wants....

If every day is set apart, then no day is set apart.

 

[Happy Trails]

I do not belong to Israel.

Nice try

So, you are NOT in the new covenant.

Hebrews 8:8-9 says that the new covenant is with the Houses of Israel and Judah. It is NOT made with Gentiles. If a Gentile is not grafted into Israel, he will not inherit the promises.

Ephesians 2:11-22 says that in the past you were called Gentiles. But, Jesus had made it so you can become a fellow citizen with the saints of Israel. Until then, you are a stranger to the promise, without hope.

 

[PinSeeker]

Faith onlyism teaches you receive salvation with zero works.

No, the doctrine of Sola Fide is that ~ as Scripture says ~ we receive salvation ~ are justified by God ~ apart from and regardless of works or any merit thereof. But good works ~ and obedience ~ are the natural result of, and therefore validation regarding the gift of salvation and faith. If there are no good works, then there can be no faith, because true saving faith would inevitably and invariably produce and result in good works. And this is what James is saying in chapter 2 of his epistle. Much like there can be no thunder without lightning, there can be no good works or real obedience in faith without faith, and therefore it's an inert, ineffectual ~ dead ~ faith and certainly not the living faith given by God. But inevitably, when there is lightning, there will be thunder (however slight). Likewise, again, if there is this living faith borne in us by God, good works and obedience will inevitably follow, without fail, because of the work of God in us.

No one ever was justified by faith and no obedience to God.

Regarding faith, John Calvin never argued that we are justified by faith, but that we are justified through faith. And as I said above, obedience inevitably follows. As Ezekiel says, God gives us a new heart, and a new spirit He puts within us. He removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives us a heart of flesh. And He puts His Spirit within us, and causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (36:26-27).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JohnPaul]

I don’t believe in circumcision that was for the Jews before Christianity,

 

[Happy Trails]

It is rare. That is why I'm questioning you.....

You act as if where blue in the border of you garments is common. It isn't at all.

Most people have no idea what the requirements of the law of Moses were. No idea. They have never had to live by it themselves .....fearing death from breaking it.

"Why did you lie," is an accusation cloaked as a question.
You couched your second accusation in a generic statement that was obviously targeting me.

So, where did I lie?
How am I pretending to be better than anyone?

 

[Happy Trails]

Right, and the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command today. This is obvious to anyone who reads Colossians 2:14-17. We are not to let others judge us in regards to whether or not we keep the Sabbaths or holy days, or dietary laws, etcetera. There are no commands given to us by Jesus and His followers to keep the Sabbath. There are no breaking of the Sabbath listed as a sin among the other lists of sins mentioned by the followers of Jesus Christ. Christians gathered on the first day of the week (Which is a Sunday and not Saturday). No doubt this was to commemorate their discovery of His resurrection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul also said that I DO NOT WANT TO DO, I DO. that I want to do I CAN NOT DO.

Your constant rejection of the truth and badgering people with false truths about what they believe is not winning you any brownie points my friend.

You Sin yourself. So you can't judge other people because they sin.

You under your power trying your best not to sin is not going to save you any more than the saved sinner who is struggling not to sin but like paul keeps falling.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking from his experience of when he was a Pharisee who was under the 613 Laws of Moses before he met Jesus Christ. He was giving an account of his struggle with sin being exclusively under the Law alone when he did not know Jesus. How so? Romans 7:1 says he is speaking to them that know the Law. In Romans 7:6, Paul says that we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah Scriptures).

In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is carnal and sold under sin. Yet in Romans 8:2 Paul says the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death; And Paul says that to be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6). So Paul cannot be carnal anymore. Unless Paul has a split personality, he is talking from two different perspectives. In other words, if I believed as you did, it would sound like Paul would be contradicting himself in Romans 7:14 vs. Romans 8:2, and Romans 8:6.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Why did you lie," is an accusation cloaked as a question.
You couched your second accusation in a generic statement that was obviously targeting me.

So, where did I lie?
How am I pretending to be better than anyone?

Quote where I said these and I might remember.....

I still don't believe you actually wear blue in the border of all your garments.

 

[Taken]

“Still” implies you have evidence of your claim...that you render with a charge...of false.
Why fail to verify your claim?
Quote me regarding your claim.

All of your posts make the argument that you do not feel any obligation to obey the Torah.
You feel that the Law never applied to you and that you see nothing good in it.
Your entire position is founded on antinomianism.
That would be justifying disobedience.

Seems you being from OK, has confused you into thinking yourself qualified to think and speak for others.

* Reality check...you are not qualified to think or speak for me.

 

[Happy Trails]

Right, and the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command today. This is obvious to anyone who reads Colossians 2:14-17. We are not to let others judge us in regards to whether or not we keep the Sabbaths or holy days, or dietary laws, etcetera. There are no commands given to us by Jesus and His followers to keep the Sabbath. There are no breaking of the Sabbath listed as a sin among the other lists of sins mentioned by the followers of Jesus Christ. Christians gathered on the first day of the week (Which is a Sunday and not Saturday). No doubt this was to commemorate their discovery of His resurrection.

Right, and the Saturday Sabbath is no longer a binding command today. If you loved God, obeying him would be the desire of your heart. You might want to show your gratitude to God for sending his Son to die for you. 1 John 5:3.

Does God make a direct connection with "loving him" and "obeying him?"
Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 5:10, Deuteronomy 7:9, Deuteronomy 11:1, Deuteronomy 11:13, Deuteronomy 11:22, Deuteronomy 19:9, Deuteronomy 30:16. Joshua 22:5, Nehemiah 1:5, John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:31, John 15:10, 1 John 5:2-3, 2 John 1:6, John 8:38.

Yeah, it looks that way.

This is obvious to anyone who reads Colossians 2:14-17. What is obvious is that you read one statement out of context, and therefore completely inverted the meaning of it. This is a wonderful example of the outrageous twisting of Scripture used to justify disobedience. Starting in verse 4, Paul is warning against the heathens and the philosophers intimidating the believers.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

"Don't let these heathens judge you because you eat kosher, are not a drunk, observe the feasts of YHVH, observe HIS lunar calendar AND his Sabbaths. These are all prophetic shadows of the Messiah."

The renamed pagan holidays ARE NOT shadows of the Messiah. So, this verse means THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you have been taught. Jeremiah 16:19

We are not to let others judge us in regards to whether or not we keep the Sabbaths or holy days, or dietary laws, etcetera. There are no commands given to us by Jesus and His followers to keep the Sabbath.
Keeping the Sabbath was what they always did. Why would they need an instruction to continue what they had always done?

There are no breaking of the Sabbath listed as a sin among the other lists of sins mentioned by the followers of Jesus Christ. The Sabbath was a given. It is what separated God's people form everyone else. Observing the days of other gods is "pollution of idols." That is what the Law instructs us to avoid.

Christians gathered on the first day of the week (Which is a Sunday and not Saturday). No doubt this was to commemorate their discovery of His resurrection. Show me the one incident where you think that happened, and I will show you 6 more that dispute it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That’s the BEGINNING of the gospel.

You are not a new believer in the faith any more!

You didn’t need works of righteousness when you came as an unsaved person.

But after you must:

Then we are under law not grace my friend.

The moment we are justified is the end of the gospel.

everything after is our ongoing sanctification as we grow from babes in christ to mature believers

 

[Taken]

I don’t believe in circumcision that was for the Jews before Christianity,

Circumcision of the Heart is a Works God Performs on a Converted man IN Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, talking about Initial Salvation because WHEN does the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit happen?
It happens when you are first saved, right? So this is the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God’s grace without works because one is being saved by God’s grace and mercy (Which is a process of salvation without any works involved on our part). But AFTER you are saved by God’s grace, you have to believe Paul when he says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. Sanctification of the Spirit is living holy according to the power of the Spirit to the context (i.e. the verses before it, and after it). Romans 8:13 confirms this same truth. “Belief of the truth” mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 would be a continual belief in the gospel, and it would be a belief of the truths or key important doctrines in the Bible. For example: You cannot reject the future bodily resurrection of believers and be saved according to 1 Corinthians 15.

Anyways, here is 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 teaching a secondary aspect of salvation
(Which is after we are saved by God’s grace in Ephesians 2:8-9):

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says:

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”
​

I hope this helps to challenge you to look at the Scriptures again with a fresh pair of eyes, friend.

May God’s grace and peace shine upon you.

1. I am justified forever (eternal life, seal of there spirit, perfected forever)
2. I am being transformed (sanctified) as Gods work is ongoing, but will be completed, I am being sanctified by him who perfected me forever
3. I will be glorified.

Your mixing 1 and 2 and claiming final justification will nto happen unless WE complete number 2.

Thats exactly the type of legalism paul faught.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, you are NOT in the new covenant.

Hebrews 8:8-9 says that the new covenant is with the Houses of Israel and Judah. It is NOT made with Gentiles. If a Gentile is not grafted into Israel, he will not inherit the promises.

Ephesians 2:11-22 says that in the past you were called Gentiles. But, Jesus had made it so you can become a fellow citizen with the saints of Israel. Until then, you are a stranger to the promise, without hope.

I am part of the abrahamic covenant - In you shall all the nations be blessed. Where there is no jew, gentile male female etc etc.

The sabbath was given to Israel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking from his experience of when he was a Pharisee who was under the 613 Laws of Moses before he met Jesus Christ. He was giving an account of his struggle with sin being exclusively under the Law alone when he did not know Jesus. How so? Romans 7:1 says he is speaking to them that know the Law. In Romans 7:6, Paul says that we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah Scriptures).

In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is carnal and sold under sin. Yet in Romans 8:2 Paul says the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death; And Paul says that to be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6). So Paul cannot be carnal anymore. Unless Paul has a split personality, he is talking from two different perspectives. In other words, if I believed as you did, it would sound like Paul would be contradicting himself in Romans 7:14 vs. Romans 8:2, and Romans 8:6.

um, no he was not. This is a sadly misrepresentation of pauls words.

He spoke of the struggle he and all of us (if we are honest with ourselves) struggle with.

He was set free from the penalty of sin and death (law)

but it does not mean he no longer struggles with his flesh..

I pray you do not think you no longer struggle..

 

[Michiah-Imla]

everything after is our ongoing sanctification as we grow from babes in christ to mature believers

“Ongoing sanctification”?

This is not biblical.

We ARE (presently) sanctified! We are not being sanctified:

“ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Otherwise, Christ has not been formed in you yet:

“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you” (Galatians 4:19)

 

[Happy Trails]

Quote where I said these and I might remember.....

I still don't believe you actually wear blue in the border of all your garments.

You don't what a tzit-tzit is?

#1000+ - praise_yeshua
So you're not really wearing blue in the fringe of your garments? Why did you lie? Its seems like everyone wants to pretend they're better than someone else. .

 

[Michiah-Imla]

He spoke of the struggle he and all of us (if we are honest with ourselves) struggle with.

You struggle with sin because you are obeying the flesh and being disobedient to the Spirit:

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If the only thing is is that person is a Christian....
*That gives no indication the person WAS Saved the moment they were looking at a woman.
*That does indicated the person WAS a Believer, and Yes then at the moment of death, that person WOULD BECOME SAVED.

That person had Belief in their Heart of God and Christ Jesus, which is a person having a relationship WITH God, thus will be WITH God after physical death.

Lust...is interpreted in numerous way...Looking finding attractive...Looking finding attractive in a ridiculous sort of way, thinking her mate is a lucky guy...wondering if she is as sweet as she is to look at...wondering if she is attached to a partner.....Advancing her for one purpose....A Burning desire is a lingering desire to begin conjuring up thoughts of arranging provisions for one purpose.

Lust...is one casting eyes upon the OUTSIDE of an other as first step interest.

Scripture is about teaching, what is on the INSIDE of an other., regardless of the OUTSIDE Looks.

Inasmuch as people LIKE To LOOK at pretty things, and every time a man looks at a pretty woman, it’s MUST be him desiring lewd intentions and on the flip side people many people CAST their eyes AWAY from what they glance and find not pretty....
Point being....our eyes are designed to look and see, however it is where our thoughts go and linger or begins imagining and arranging provisions for lewdness that is ungodly.

I don’t believe LOOK and SEE, means a SIN has been committed.



A person calling themselves a Christian does not mean sinless.
A person who has become Converted does not mean sinless.
A person who SHALL BE risen up in Glory, shall then be risen in a sinless body.



1 John 1;9 occurs BEFORE a person becomes Converted.
Converted IS one who has RECEIVED their Salvation.
One who has RECEIVED their Salvation IS SAVED.
IS SAVED, IS CONVERTED....Saved Once, Saved Forever. Or if one prefers the acronym OSAS.




Agree, you as a BELIEVER, can fall away.
Agree, you as a BELIEVE, must endure to your end.
Your enduring is you “hoping” you “Keep enduring/ie Believing” to your end of physical life.

I no longer “hope” for what I was given and received...CONVERSION.
The whole world was given....The Lords Body crucified dead.
I gave my body, I accepted His forgiveness, I accepted His restoring my soul (ie saving), I accepted His quickening my spirit (ie born again),
I accepted His risen body to dwell IN. I accepted His Spirit to dwell in me and KEEP ME.

See the difference?
*You are “hoping” by your own power that you “KEEP enduring/believing” to the day you physically die.
* I already gave my body unto death, crucified with Him.
I’m not HOPING to keep Believing. I have His Power IN me,
That it is NOT POSSIBLE for me to ever NOT Believe.

* Do you realize, Gods Power supersedes ALL OTHER POWER?
* WHAT power could possibly could convince me (with Gods Power IN me)...to NOT BELIEVE ? A wicked sneaky underhanded man? An evil spirit? Nada!



And...WHAT COMMANDS is a person SUPPOSED to KEEP?
Sort of depends on WHO that person is ...
A person WHO IS Converted (OSAS)....HAS TWO COMMANDS, because the rest were already accomplished.

Matt 22:
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now we KNOW, the COMMANDS the Lord gives, are the SAME COMMANDS that the Lord applies TO Himself.

And AGAIN...A CONVERTED man HAS the Spirit/Power of God “IN” him.
Ya think Gods POWER “IN” a man is going to KEEP that man IN obedience, or God is going to be twiddling his thumbs while a man IS inviting SIN into himself?



The “kinds” of Believers, that RECEIVE Salvation, are the “Believers” WILLING to lay down their Life For their Lord God and BE MADE CONVERTED “THEN”.
You have option to do that .... BEFORE physical DEATH, and receive your Salvation....
OR
Wait to your physical DEATH...and HOPE on the day you die, you have kept YOURSELF in Belief...if so...”THEN” you shall be saved.

‘’’’SAVED NOW”...CONVERTED IN Christ.
...OR
...”SHALL BE SAVED”....if you endure, keeping believing to your end.



ONCE....(not 2,3,4,5,to infinity), ONCE a person IS SAVED, it’s a done deal.

Your scriptures refute nothing.
Your scriptures are about things that occur BEFORE receiving Salvation.
You implying a SAVED PERSON skipped Gods WAY, is nonsense.



Posting Against what you do not understand, is revealed in your posts.

Learn the definition of ONCE.
Search the scriptures of HOW MANY TIMES an individual person RECEIVES Salvation.
Search the scriptures of WHAT is Gods ORDER and WAY, TO receive Salvation ....... BEFORE a mans Physical Death....AFTER a mans Physical Death.

When you can identify What, when, how, why, God has offered, and What, when, how, why a man can receive His Offering....you might begin to realize simply making accusations, and offering scriptures that do not apply, holds no merit for your claims.

I am not going to address all your misunderstandings of Scripture because my time is limited, and I have a life to live, and I get the a feeling it will not benefit others to the edifying of the faith. Besides, my rebuttal of Eternal Security so far is sufficient and stands on its own with Scripture (for anyone who is honestly seeking the truth with God’s Word).

So I am going to simply deal with one of my favorite verses that you have misinterpreted. 1 John 1:9. You say this is dealing with when we are first saved. It’s odd. You are not the first OSAS Christian to have this kind of incorrect interpretation, my friend. 1 John 1:9 is in context to 1 John 2:1 where John says for us to “sin not” but if we do by some chance we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. We obviously are to confess of our sins to Jesus Christ. While I believe God did place chapter and verses numbers later in the Bible, they technically were not there in the original writings. Sometimes a particular point or thought flows from one chapter into the next. This is one of those cases. Just reread 1 John 1:9 to 1 John 2:1 and it is clear that is all one continued thought or point. Granted, the whole letter or epistle has a connected overall theme or thought to the believers he was writing to. But John is not switching in changing topics between 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1.