Once Saved, Always Saved?

[amigo de christo]

Feel better after you tirade of words for that is ALL you said.
I stand by, in and for God's word.
I have never, to my knowledge attacked the person behind their belief in OSAS!

AS A MATTER OF FACT, PLEASE SOMEONE WHO IS HUMBLE,SUBMITTED TO GOD, AND WALKS IN HIS WORD EXPLAIN THE DOCTRINE OF OSAS.
NOT BY PICKING OUT KEY PHRASES BUT FROM HIS WORD IN CONTEXT THAT YOU CAN NEVER FAIL AND BE REJECTED BY GOD OR YOURSELF REJECT HIM AFTER SALVATION.

Do NOT use the pat answer well " they never were of us nor no man can pluck them out of my hand, not lost none the Father has given me".......
Thanks!

They even contradict this true saying . I have heard them say IF ONE had faith in JESUS
and then later falls away , THEY STILL saved . YET JOHN would have said , OH NO THEY AINT
they were never truly of us . You see they do contradict even this .
I have heard many of them say what i just said above . And many say we just cant outsin GODS LOVE .
Now compare that to what paul said , WHO YE OBEY IS WHOSE YE ARE . DOES IT SOUND even close to the same .
HOW come the early church was fast to correct sin , fast to restore such a one
fast to protect the flocks . TODAYS chruch says , OH STOP warning , OH STOP JUDING they cant lose salvation .
So why such a dire difference towards sin today . I will tell us why , cause acryonms and only part of scripture
and taking off from Beholding the SEVERITY SIDE Of GOD has done exactly this , MADE them fall asleep and now leaven
having not been corrected , well its taken over the places . SEE we have to BEHOLD not some , not even most
BUT ALL THINGS they taught and said . CAUSE ITS the only pattern that DOES work .

 

[Michiah-Imla]

So you're experiencing persecutions and tribulations?

In various degrees, yes.

For:

“…if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity.” (Ecclesiastes 11:8)

We should give diligence that we do not end up being like this man:

“…he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.” (Matthew 13:20-21)

 

[praise_yeshua]

In various degrees, yes.

For:

“…if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity.” (Ecclesiastes 11:8)

We should give diligence that we do not end up being like this man:

“…he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.” (Matthew 13:20-21)

Was Peter offended?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Was Peter offended?

When?

 

[amigo de christo]

So you're experiencing persecutions and tribulations?

Lets just say if your hanging around folks IN SIN and they seem to be LOVING YA and not changing ,
WELL something has went DEAD wrong in ya walk .
If unrepentant gays , murderers , fornicators and etc can happily sit in a church
week after week and feel no conviction and no repentance has been made . LETS JUST SAY
Them pastors AINT DOING the WORK OF GOD .
IF all sinners who loved sin can call me good and hug on me and say my kind of christanity is the BOMB
them rest assured my kind of christanity IS FALSE . What has happened to this generation .
WHERE is the conviction within sinners who willfully sin and sit in a church . I MEAN IF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE
and sound doctrine would be preached , YA GOTTA KNOW someone would be heavily convicted
OR they would simply leave the place. SO you tell me , IF the same ol man can sit in the same old church
day after day , year after year , doing good works and hugging all , YET WILLFULLY IN SIN
WHAT do you THINK has GONE WRONG . cause WHEN THE SPIRIT IS PRESENT , I GOTTA TELL YA
IT CONVICTS YA WHEN YA SIN . YET they say OH THEY GODS KIDS and yet NO CONVICTION they they same old
man who maybe now just does more good works and sings more praises , but STILL LOVES SIN .
I DONT SEE THE GRACE OF GOD in any of that . I see another jesus getting preached and i see no sound doctrine
which could have caused some to repent or leave .

 

[amigo de christo]

Does anyone else ever get the Strong unction that the churches have replaced the wisdom of GOD
on evanglizing and correction and replaced it with the carnal wisdoms of men .
PS , just cause the wisdom of man can cause churches to grow huge dont make it right at all .
IF we are fishing with wordly bait to draw in the fish , rest assured those will be the fish
that get cast out at the end . We must simply live , walk and speak TRUTH and GOD will add WHOM HE WILL ADD .
Mans ways have destroyed the churches from within . GODS ways KEEP a church healthy and strong

 

[praise_yeshua]

When?

You know when. When he denied the Lord thrice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lets just say if your hanging around folks IN SIN and they seem to be LOVING YA and not changing ,
WELL something has went DEAD wrong in ya walk .
If unrepentant gays , murderers , fornicators and etc can happily sit in a church
week after week and feel no conviction and no repentance has been made . LETS JUST SAY
Them pastors AINT DOING the WORK OF GOD .
IF all sinners who loved sin can call me good and hug on me and say my kind of christanity is the BOMB
them rest assured my kind of christanity IS FALSE . What has happened to this generation .
WHERE is the conviction within sinners who willfully sin and sit in a church . I MEAN IF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THERE
and sound doctrine would be preached , YA GOTTA KNOW someone would be heavily convicted
OR they would simply leave the place. SO you tell me , IF the same ol man can sit in the same old church
day after day , year after year , doing good works and hugging all , YET WILLFULLY IN SIN
WHAT do you THINK has GONE WRONG . cause WHEN THE SPIRIT IS PRESENT , I GOTTA TELL YA
IT CONVICTS YA WHEN YA SIN . YET they say OH THEY GODS KIDS and yet NO CONVICTION they they same old
man who maybe now just does more good works and sings more praises , but STILL LOVES SIN .
I DONT SEE THE GRACE OF GOD in any of that . I see another jesus getting preached and i see no sound doctrine
which could have caused some to repent or leave .

So why do you go to church and still sin?

It is easy to talk about others you believe are sinning while ignoring your own sin.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You know when. When he denied the Lord thrice.

Peter was not converted yet so he had no salvation to lose yet.

Christ didn’t die and resurrect yet.

And even after he rose from the dead none of the Apostles believed he was risen from the dead:

“Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.” (Mark 16:14)

“For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” (1 Corinthians 15:16-17)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So who has never once told a lie? Apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) we would all be liars in the eyes of God because our sins remain and we stand clothed in our own filthy rags of righteousness. (Isaiah 64:6)

First, there is a huge difference between justifying sin vs. battling against sin. Believers can be forgiven of their sins if they confess and forsake those sins and they don't believe they will just sin tomorrow as if they are not changed or the new man.

Second, Romans 4:5-6 is dealing with our Initial Salvation in being saved by God's grace through faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ. Philippians 3:9 is saying that we are Foundationally saved by God's grace and not by the 613 Laws of Moses (that is no longer a binding contract or set of laws for New Covenant believers). New Covenant believers today are under the many Laws (or commands) that come from Jesus and His followers. It is only after one is saved by God's grace that they are able to obey God in the Sanctification Process by the Holy Spirit. So Romans 4:5-6 and Philippians 3:9 is not saying you are still saved if you are to lie or do a sin on occasion. You must confess to Jesus Christ your sin in order to be forgiven of that sin (with the intention that you will not do that sin ever again). If not, you are turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Yes, one sin with the thinking one is saved is turning God's grace into a license for immorality according to Jude 1:4. It is wrong to murder once just as it is wrong to murder tons of times. The same is true with lying. All liars (not just some) will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). There is no mention of some liars (like OSAS folk who lie) who will be an exception to the rule on this.

As for your quote of Isaiah 64:6:

Well, when you read Isaiah 64:6, you also have to read the verse above it that says,

“Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness,…” (Isaiah 64:5).​

God meets him that rejoices and works righteousness.
So obviously the… “our righteousness are as filthy rags” is in reference to one striving to do good outside of God’s instructions. Those are the kind of righteous deeds that are like filthy rags. It's not talking about doing what God is telling you to do. That's silly to suggest otherwise. It's never wrong to obey God. It's not our righteousness if we are doing the righteous instructions of God.

1 John 3:10 says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

So forsake all sins and become sinless in order to remain saved in the future?

I told you before that there are sins not unto death.

Do believers need to confess each and every sin that they commit as they commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed and saved" and "if they forget a sin they are toast?”

Yes. This would be all death sins listed in the Bible. If you don't recall all of the evil you did, I am sure the Lord Jesus will forgive you if you confess what you remember and you ask Him to forgive you of any evil you don't recall. But we know that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they do not believe on Jesus (See: John 16:8-9). So imagine how much this is the case for a believer.

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10).

Again, you read 1 John 1:8 as a means to justify sin (of which God cannot agree with). This interpretation does not fit the context that shortly follows because 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments; And 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). So your sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is busted.

Note: I will strive to continue to reply to the rest of what you wrote in a later time (Lord willing).

 

[amigo de christo]

So why do you go to church and still sin?

It is easy to talk about others you believe are sinning while ignoring your own sin.

That is what i am trying to tell ya , The SPIRIT called the MOST HOLY
never lets me have peace in any error . IT ALWAYS rebukes and corrects and leads me out of said error
into full repentance mode . THAT IS MY POINT .
Plus even when i have erred , its not like i am saying , HEY GOD IS LOVE HE MADE ME THIS WAY .
I get convicted massively when even a lustful evil thought pops into my head .
SO HOW COME THEY DEFEND SIN . WELL cause they think its fine or that it aint even sin at all .
The pastors need to go sit down and let the true lambs stand up and lead the church , cause these men of today
are leading folks ONLY TO DARKNESS under the guise of a false love and a god that contradicts THE GOD of said BIBLE .
NOW WHO do ye suppose would do that . WHO would want to have the worship and be AS GOD . SATAN WOULD .
ITS TIME folks get back into bibles and start learning for themselves and stop living by every emotion of man
and rather start living by EVERY WORD OF GOD .

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, I do see OSAS as a “sin all you want doctrine” because according to OSAS, no sin can make you unsaved. Also, there are different levels of justifying sin or evil and God is not in approval of either one. Remember, it only took one sin for the Fall to happen and not many sins (Which you seem to ignore).

That OSAS is a "sin all you want doctrine" and OSAS believers are "justifying sin and evil" is a straw man regardless of your "holier than thou" and "justifying non-death sins vs. death sins" rhetoric.

Also, it's not a strawman argument to say that OSAS is teaching that “you can sin all you want” because you gave a like reputation to a particular poster in this thread when they said, I quote:

“Your not going to get to heaven because you do not commit those sins. And they are not going to hell because they commit those sins.
Christ is the only means to heaven, Not how good or bad someone is.” ​

~ Quote by: Eternally Grateful - Post #959

Note: I screen captured the post just in case you decide to retract your like rep that shows that you support a person who thinks OSAS is teaching salvation is not in any way about how good or bad someone is or because you do not commit certain sins (i.e. you can sin all you want).​

Screen capture it all you want wise guy. I did not hear Eternal Grateful say let's just "sin all we want" and that's not what I'm saying either, but you love to put words in other people's mouth. Just more of your eisegesis and rhetoric in your efforts to judge and condemn OSAS believers.

​

As for your quote of Romans 8:30-39:

This in no way supports your false belief in OSAS.

Romans 8:30 says, “...whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified...”

Notice the word called in Romans 8:30. Does that mean that all that are called are going to be justified?

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

No. Jesus says, “many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14).

Matthew 22:14 - Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached.

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective, 2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Rom. 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Cor. 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Rev. 17:14; in Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. God has invited us to join Him in eternity in incorruptible, sinless, glorified bodies. The aorist tense points to the fact that God effectively had called them into His kingdom and service in the past. There is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called. Of course, those who are justified and glorified are those who answer and abide. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Paul did not say here that many were called but few were justified and glorified.

 

[mailmandan]

CONTINUED...

Also, the word justified in Romans 8:30 is referring to not only how we are justified by faith, but it how we are justified by our works, too. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

Here it comes. Type 2 works salvation. When Paul uses the term "justified" he is referring to the legal (judicial) of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James however is using to term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works gives evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

James 2:21
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

As I mentioned to you before, Romans 11:22 says we are to continue in His goodness otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off).

I already throughly explained Romans 11:22 to you. You ignored the context and only isolated what you wanted to hear.

So Romans 8:30-39 cannot be interpreted as meaning that GOD will force save you in this life because you were once saved in the past by His grace.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God, yet you teach otherwise.

Christians have different views on what Sinless Perfection means. I don't think Sinless Perfection is exclusively dealing with our salvation. Sinless Perfection is more about putting away sins that are non-death sins. I mentioned this to you before, but you appeared to not be able to grasp what I was talking about.

Earlier you said that it only took one sin for the Fall to happen and now you are downplaying non-death sins with death sins.

No. So says the Bible because there is no label or description in the Bible that mentions your Type Two Works Salvation.

"Maintaining salvation by works" is another way of saying Type Two Works Salvation and there are people in the Bible who taught it and there are people in false religions and cults that teach it today.

I am not in disagreement with what Theologian's call Justification. But we obviously don't agree entirely on what Justification involves. The Bible teaches...

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1 etc..).

Salvation by God's grace through faith is the first aspect of a believer's salvation and it is a process of salvation that is without works because it is based upon God's mercy and grace.

Works-salvationists typically confuse justification with sanctification and the end result is "type 2 works salvation/maintaining salvation by works."

 

[mailmandan]

CONTINUED..

In Hebrews 12:14: The author of Hebrews is writing to Hebrew Christians and he is telling them to follow after holiness and to make peace with all men (without which no man shall see the Lord). In Hebrews 12:15 is an admonishment for us to look after other brethren diligently so that no believer fails the grace of God. In your view: A person cannot fail the grace of God but they are Once Saved Always Saved. That's why what you believe is not consistent with the plain reading of Scripture.

As I already shared with you, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). To be sanctified is to be set apart/made holy. The writer of Hebrews is not talking about adding personal holiness as a supplement to faith in Christ in order to help save yourself. Throughout the Bible we see unbelievers (nominal Christians/make believers) mixed in with genuine believers. Once again in Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Never saved.

What's the difference between them and what you believe?
Do you believe the Prodigal Son was saved while he was living it up with prostitutes?

Sinless Perfection is dealing with putting away non-death sins.
Thus Sinless Perfect is not a salvation issue.
But Christians do need to overcome death sins (or sins that lead to the Lake of Fire).

So you divide sins up into non-death sins and death sins. That sounds like venial sins and mortal sins as taught in Roman Catholicism who BTW also teach salvation by works.

As for your statement: “Holier than thou”:
Again this statement is meaningless if the Bible does in fact teach that holy living (Sanctification) is a requirement for salvation. See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

AMP - But we should and are [morally] obligated [as debtors] always to give thanks to God for you, believers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [that sets you apart for God’s purpose] and by your faith in the truth [of God’s word that leads you to spiritual maturity]. 14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. These passages of scripture do not teach that we are saved based on the merits of holy living. The moment that we have been saved through faith we are then sanctified/set apart by God through the work of the Spirit. Believers are washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Note: I will strive to reply to the rest of what you wrote at a later time (Lord willing).

Save it. I already heard enough of your arguments on the Christian Forums site. We will never come to an agreement.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@mailmandan

I see you have mastered OSAS apologetics well…

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan

I see you have mastered OSAS apologetics well…

I have learned a lot after many years of debating with works-salvationists/sinless perfectionists/eternal IN-securists. ;)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

“Your not going to get to heaven because you do not commit those sins. And they are not going to hell because they commit those sins.
Christ is the only means to heaven, Not how good or bad someone is.” ​

~ Quote by: Eternally Grateful - Post #959

Note: I screen captured the post just in case you decide to retract your like rep that shows that you support a person who thinks OSAS is teaching salvation is not in any way about how good or bad someone is or because you do not commit certain sins (i.e. you can sin all you want).​

Why would I retract what I said.

the penalty of sin is death. It does not say the penalty of only these sins is death.

What I want to know is why you think you are better than others. When God looks at you as a sinner who is deserving of his judgment.

Of course he provided a way for you. All you have to do is receive.

Once again, Acknowledging I can not keep Gods commands perfectly is not me excusing my sin.
​

As for your quote of Romans 8:30-39:

This in no way supports your false belief in OSAS.

Romans 8:30 says, “...whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified...”

Notice the word called in Romans 8:30. Does that mean that all that are called are going to be justified?

No. Jesus says, “many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14).

Also, the word justified in Romans 8:30 is referring to not only how we are justified by faith, but it how we are justified by our works, too. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

James 2:21
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”

As I mentioned to you before, Romans 11:22 says we are to continue in His goodness otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off).

So Romans 8:30-39 cannot be interpreted as meaning that GOD will force save you in this life because you were once saved in the past by His grace.

Ah so you want to try to use your works to save you. Good luck with that. Many will in thnat day say lord lord have we not done these works in your name, And he will say depart.

Why?

He never knew you.

Christians have different views on what Sinless Perfection means. I don't think Sinless Perfection is exclusively dealing with our salvation. Sinless Perfection is more about putting away sins that are non-death sins. I mentioned this to you before, but you appeared to not be able to grasp what I was talking about.

God has one view

For all have sinned and fall short.

Sin in the greek means to miss the mark. God set the mark, the mark is perfection. If you have not hit that mark. You are unable to meet Gods standard to save yourself

You better call out to Jesus because he is your only hope[/quote][/quote]

 

[Grailhunter]

When you are dealing with the OSAS crowd or the Calvinists, or the Jehovah's Witnesses or the LGBTQ groups, ya have to consider....

If Satan wanted to appeal to certain Christians....what kind of religious beliefs would he promote?

Write it down.....what would he want Christians to do?

What sins would he be tolerant of?

What would faith look like under the influence of Satan?

What reward would he offer for sin?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Peter was not converted yet so he had no salvation to lose yet.

Christ didn’t die and resurrect yet.

And even after he rose from the dead none of the Apostles believed he was risen from the dead:

“Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.” (Mark 16:14)

“For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” (1 Corinthians 15:16-17)

That is utter ridiculous and self serving for your position.

Based upon your silliness, no one has a salvation they could lose until after the resurrection...... what ridiculous nonsense. Did you even think before you posted that at all?

The Scriptures prove you wrong.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

That is utter ridiculous and self serving for your position.

You know very well that one must believe that Christ rose again to be saved.

That’s basic gospel.

You got nothing.

Check mate.

Don’t bring up the malefactor on the cross either. After they died on the cross, Christ new that he would believe the gospel when they went to the dead:

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead” (1 Peter 4:6)