Once Saved, Always Saved?
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A prime example—-taking Hebrews10 out of context has lead to incalculable fear and confusion.....read the Ten chapters that proceed it to understand it....
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 10 at face value is in perfect context with the whole of scripture!
You’re doctrine has just been exposed sir, checkmate:
“The fear of the LORD is clean” (Psalms 19:9)
“The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom” (Proverbs 15:33)
“The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.” (Proverbs 19:23)
“by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.” (Proverbs 16:6)
“the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.” (Job 28:28)
Oh, and in case you dismiss these OT scriptures, here’s a NT one:
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1)
Your false doctrine has left you without:
The fear of God.
The instruction of wisdom.
Understanding.
Satisfaction.
Cleanliness.
A departure from evil.
Perfect holiness.
I read the entire Bible 3-4 times a year!
How many times did you read it last year?
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
“A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear?” (Malachi 1:6)
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ… Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others.” (2 Corinthians 5:10-11)
Sadly, many don’t know the fear of the Lord…
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Right, I know exactly what you're talking about, as does everyone else here, but the fact is, by exclusion, the ones who are of us have been made that way by God himself, and thus, through His sustaining power through the work of the Holy Spirit in us, we will not fall away. Though we could (technically speaking) fall away, because of God's work in us, His sustaining power, we will not.
Oh yes, quite so. Paul is crystal clear in Romans 8:37-39, as posted above. And so, though you apparently don't mean to, you are disputing the validity of the Word of God... and God Himself.
Right, but they don't say that because the whole context of them is only concerning those who are of us ~ of God, His elect, those born again of the Spirit. These no longer willfully sin.
Sure, but again, that's totally out of context and thus a non sequitur. And I think you know it, but are so dug in that you can't retract what you've said. And that, apparently, is due to a terrible lack of humility on your part.
No, the danger is wandering from that great truth, that great promise of God, over into thinking there is no longer any consequence for sin and disobedience, and into antinomianism.
Grace and peace to you.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
You have perfected the “context” game.
Uh oh, there it is again…
Context context context…
Haven’t you noticed that I never claim that scriptures posted to me are out of context? Scripture compared to scripture disproves every false “context” claim by Once Saved Always Saved believers. I just let the scriptures speak for themselves.
It's no game. It is what it is.
Only once is sufficient. Like I said, it is what it is.
Well you don't respond to them at all, because they debunk what you keep saying, and you can't have that... LOL!
That's exactly the problem. You're comparing apples to oranges and and conflating the two.
And they do, but not in the conflated way you suppose.
Grace and peace to you.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I am curious where you got the idea of "those who are of us?"
There should not be so much confusion about this topic.
Unfortunately for those who do not rightly divide the word of truth, most of what is written along the lines of possibly falling away after coming to the knowledge of Christ, [in context] was only written to those who were of that generation which was on the cusp of salvation coming with the Holy Spirit. Even those to whom Jesus said, "I have washed you clean", had not yet received the saving power of the spirit of God--meaning that even the apostles could technically "fall away."
However, there has been a change to all of these terms of salvation since Jesus went to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit, which was His baptism spoken of by John the Baptist. Since then there is no gray area, one is either holy given over to God--dead to self...or they are not saved. Which leaves only one definition for salvation, that only pertains to those who are immovably secure in God by His own spirit, as One. And being of God, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever--it is forever, because He is forever; and it is instant, because He is the same always--or it is not of God.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@ScottA
@PinSeeker
Try to read these scriptures without any biases:
“I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1)
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:” (2 Thessalonians 1:4-5)
You have to prove yourself worthy of the free gift you received from Christ. It’s crystal clear! How many other ways must the truth be showed to you?!
This is why Jesus said:
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)
Or else:
“The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.” (Matthew 22:8)
@PinSeeker
Try to read these scriptures without any biases:
“I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1)
“So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:” (2 Thessalonians 1:4-5)
You have to prove yourself worthy of the free gift you received from Christ. It’s crystal clear! How many other ways must the truth be showed to you?!
This is why Jesus said:
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13)
Or else:
“The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.” (Matthew 22:8)
Nobody disagrees with those scriptures, Michiah-Imla. Nobody. But using them as if they nullify all the scriptures we have pointed out ~ which is exactly what you are doing ~ is the problem.
Grace and peace to you.
Nope. Because we could never do so, but Christ has done it for us, and we can rest in Him. We do have to endure unto the end, but thanks be to God, He, by the work of His Holy Spirit in us, will ensure our endurance to the end, the day of Christ.
LOL! Well, it absolutely is crystal clear, and I/we would pose the very same question to you.
Grace and peace to you.
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Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Not so!
You are nullify the scriptures I just posted because of a preconceived notion of Once Saved Always Saved that you have artificially assigned to those other verses you speak of.
Open your eyes!
Oh, quite so.
No, I affirmed them. As if the Word of God needs affirming, by me or anybody else... :) But they do not somehow nullify the scriptures I have posted, as you would have it. See above.
What is, is. It is what it is.
Right back at you. You know, we can just agree to disagree and stop at any point you wish... :)
Grace and peace to you.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Oh my goodness! This is madness!
Paul said:
“I therefore… beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called” (Ephesians 4:1)
And you say we cannot walk worthy?!
Wow! Your doctrine has Paul saying things just for the sake of saying them!!
Why didn’t Paul add something like, ‘and if you cannot walk worthy, Christ will impute it to you or do it for you’?
The only thing Christ did for you, sir, is take away yours sins at the time you believed by suffering and dying for you!
Not one scripture says he does everything else for you without you putting effort into it.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
That is the problem. You are trying to mindfully, conclude something spiritual with Mindful Logic.
Reminder....
Rom 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
It’s an understanding. Salvation is a GIFT.
How can anyone FORCE YOU to TAKE a GIFT, they have bought FOR YOU? Or that YOU won?
God has GIVEN YOU a GIFT that IS expressly Yours TO Reach YOUR hand and TAKE IT?
If you do not Reach out and TAKE IT, is it any Less YOUR GIFT?
John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
God set His Gift of Salvation in the midst of the WHOLE World for the WHOLE World to TAKE .... or NOT.
Us, we, our.....does not APPLY the SAME to EVERY MAN, because EVERY MAN does not MAKE the same CHOICES.
You have freewill to enter a ice cream shop, look over the different flavors, read the menu, ask questions, and take a sample...TASTE...
Enjoy it or Spit it out.
The same is with Gods Word. If you hear, read, TASTE, enjoy Gods Word...You will receive blessings from Gods Holy Spirit.
You can TASTE...occasionally, regularly, daily, for days, for weeks, for years....and receive Gods Blessings.
AND.....
is that person BELIEVING? Maybe, maybe Not.
AND.....
Is that person CONVERTED with Baptism of the HS? No.
So WHAT....
Is that person DOING? Hearing and Learning.
So WHAT...
IF that person Hears, Tastes, Enjoys, Receives Gods HS Blessing...
THEN
Spits out the WORD of God he has TASTED?
Can he do that? Yes.
He will have SHAMED God.
What if that man Continues hearing, learning, begins believing...
He continues to be blessed, and receiving From God His Gift of Faith
IS that person SAVED? No.
If that man continues Believing, His faith Gift increases.
If that man continues Believing, to the day of his DEATH...
...He SHALL be saved on the day of his death.
IS that person SAVED? No....IS Saved and Shall be Saved, not same.
Can that man STOP believing? Yes.
If that man STOPS believing, he also Stops receiving Gods gift of Faith.
That man is called having Fallen from Faith.
IS that person SAVED? No
WHAT IF
That man Hears, Believes, Tasted, Likes, Enjoys his Blessing, Enjoys receiving Faith.........AND want to BE SAVED NOW?
IS Gods Gift of Salvation FOR THAT Person? Yes..Heb 10:10
What does that person have to DO to TAKE HIS GIFT of Salvation?
FREELY (not coerce, tricked, forced) CONFESS WITH HIS HEARTFUL (NOT the CARNAL MIND) BELIEF, that he believes in the Lord God Almighty. And is willing to:
Ask for forgiveness, FOR HAVING NOT BELIEVED, and for having corrupted his soul. (Repent)
The man gives his LIFE (John 6:51) crucified with Jesus’ Body.
(SEE? He gave HIS Life FOR the LIFE of the whole World
AND? Immediately, The Lord God SHALL RESPOND and DO ALL His Works to CONVERT YOU, and GIVE you YOUR GIFT OF SALVATION.
IS THAT man NOW SAVED, and BORN AGAIN, ie Converted?
YES.
Gods HS, shall dwell with “IN” that man all the days of his natural life.
Can that man, or any man, or God Himself ... UNDO, Remove, take away, that mans ... soul salvation, quickened spirit ?
Can God EVER Leave that man? No.
Can God EVER Forsake that man? No.
Can that man EVER Leave God? No.
How many times does a man Have to Confess to God to be Saved? ONCE.
Is that man NOW Saved ONCE always and forever? Yes.
Can that man EVER again sin (Stand against God, Not Believe) ?
No.
Many men BELIEVE, yet do not GIVE their own LIFE to Him.
That is NOT receiving ones Gift of Salvation.
And NOT all “Christians”...ARE SAVED.
And NOT all “Believers”....ARE SAVED.
Those who ARE SAVED....ARE CONVERTED, sanctified. (Set apart) from all other living persons who are NOT CONVERTED.
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