Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Taken]

If you "mean it" you'll have the life to show for it.
You can't ignore the rest of scripture which says the truly born again person has the life to show it. And the not born again person has the life to show he's not born again. A genuine confession that Jesus is Lord, and the changing life go hand in hand. You can't separate them as you are trying to do to defend your super-duper hyper grace doctrine.

There IS, that conundrum...
* Men are NOT all knowing. Men CAN be fooled by hearing what men say, by observing what men do.
Thus, men will know men, by what a mans says, by what a man does.

* God on the other hand IS all knowing. God can not be fooled by what men say, by observing what men do “SOME OF THE TIME”, rather ALL of the TIME,
(Even when men hide in secret, say in secret, do in secret), God KNOWS the WHOLE Truth.

* It is taught for men to be Accountable for what “they DO KNOW”, not accountable for they “DO NOT KNOW”.
* Thus if another man IS saying righteous things, DOING righteous things, THAT IS what a man KNOWS about the other man, and treats that man accordingly.

* God ALL KNOWING, shall treat, give, withhold, according to what HE KNOWS. IF a man be TRUE (in and out of season, ie in the open, or in secret).

* God AND the individual man, KNOW what the man Chooses, Does, Openly, Secretly, Truthfully...in his Heart, in his Mind....and YES SOME MEN, HAVE ZERO hesitation to Declare, the Great (“super-duper hyper’) Gifts, Works, God has accomplished IN that man. All credit goes to God, and the point of revealing it, is SO THAT Others who Desire the SAME, can as well, Learn How to Receive the SAME.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@Eternally Grateful -
Other words men mesh, and argue over, know not when in Context and Specific certain words DO and DO NOT apply.

One Example...Gods Grace, Gods Faithfulness, Gods Goodness, Gods Love, Gods Gift of Faith, Gods Gift of Salvation, Gods Blessings....ARE ALWAYS Constant IN and WITH God...
* Gods GRACE...is CONSTANT it IS Gods Character, not dependent on men.
* Gods Faithfulness...is CONSTANT it IS Gods Character, not dependent on men.
* Gods Goodness..is CONSTANT it is Gods Character, not dependent on men.
* Gods LOVE...is CONSTANT it is Gods Character, not dependent on men.

* It to WHOM and WHY God gives His Gifts and Blessings that IS GIVEN or IS WITHHELD, “IS” “per” the individual man...IOW, IS dependent on behavior, choices, of men.

Men CAN receive Gods GIFTS....Because OF Gods Character, of Grace, of Faithfulness, of Goodness, of Love, of Righteousness, of Sending, of Offering, etc.

Men WILL receive Gods Gifts...IF they Freely Choose to TAKE them, According to Gods Order and Way TO RECEIVE His Gifts.
(IOW, a man MUST be in agreement to TAKE and RECEIVE Gods GIFTS...because No one is Forced to TAKE a Gift.)

Men WILL receive Gods Blessings...AS God Himself ELECTS to dole them out to and upon WHOM and WHEN God Chooses.
(IOW, a man DOES NOT have to agree to TAKE or RECEIVE Gods BLESSINGS, they are given a man WITHOUT a mans CONSENT...And some men will acknowledge it was a BLESSING from God, and some men will NOT acknowledge it was a BLESSING from God, and some men WILL believe, it’s something they like, they received by LUCK.)

That ^ relates to God BLESSES....both believers and non-believers, both the Converted and non-Converted, both ISRAEL and Gentiles. IOW, ALL of his Creations Receives Gods BLESSINGS....BECAUSE of HIS Constant Character.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

With the exception of maybe one person, is there any of us who do not agree that a BELIEVING person will never perish? We all know that believing people are not the ones that are condemned and go to the fiery place. That's why it is incumbent upon the believing person to keep believing. And that's why I say the core issue of whether or not OSAS is true is whether or not a true believing person can ever stop believing, because, if it is possible, that's the only way they're going to lose salvation. Can a true believer reject the faith and forsake Christ? We know they can be faithless in their believing, cheating on their taxes out of fear, launching into a fit of rage when the pressure gets to high, etc., but can the true believer actually turn their back on Christ in unbelief? That is the question.

"if we deny Him, He will also deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:12-13​

The Point is....a believing man, can at any time DENY Him.
We have examples...Judas...remember? Peter....remember?

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, HE CAN NEVER DENY God!
Precisely BECAUSE, as you quoted, God CANNOT DENY Himself.

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, He IS BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Enters and Dwells IN that man.
“IF” that man, DENIED God, SO ALSO would the Holy Spirit “IN” that man be DENYING God....

A man WHO desires and takes Gods Holy Spirit Baptism IN that man, that man IS Agreeing to become MADE a new man, that CAN NEVER DENY GOD, Expressly BY the POWER of God entering IN that man.

That is expressly WHY God can proclaim....No man can pluck a Saved man out of Gods hand...John 10:28-29

That is expressly WHY God can proclaim...a born again man, CAN NEVER AGAIN (DENY, NOT BELIEVE) ie SIN AGAINST God... 1 John 3:9

That is expressly WHY a man WHO HAS become Baptized with Gods Holy Spirit, CAN PROCLAIM, he IS Saved, Once and Forever. He is KEPT Saved, By Gods Power IN him....1 John 4:4
He can NEVER be separated FROM God...Matt 28:20

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Point is....a believing man, can at any time DENY Him.
We have examples...Judas...remember? Peter....remember?

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, HE CAN NEVER DENY God!
Precisely BECAUSE, as you quoted, God CANNOT DENY Himself.

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, He IS BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Enters and Dwells IN that man.
“IF” that man, DENIED God, SO ALSO would the Holy Spirit “IN” that man be DENYING God....

A man WHO desires and takes Gods Holy Spirit Baptism IN that man, that man IS Agreeing to become MADE a new man, that CAN NEVER DENY GOD, Expressly BY the POWER of God entering IN that man.

That is expressly WHY God can proclaim....No man can pluck a Saved man out of Gods hand...John 10:28-29

That is expressly WHY God can proclaim...a born again man, CAN NEVER AGAIN (DENY, NOT BELIEVE) ie SIN AGAINST God... 1 John 3:9

That is expressly WHY a man WHO HAS become Baptized with Gods Holy Spirit, CAN PROCLAIM, he IS Saved, Once and Forever. He is KEPT Saved, By Gods Power IN him....1 John 4:4
He can NEVER be separated FROM God...Matt 28:20

Glory to God,
Taken

One must remember, Judas never had faith in Gods provision that he needed a savior of his soul. He wanted a savior of his life from rome.. Which is why in the end, he denied.

Peter never stopped trusting Jesus had the means of eternal life. He denied him out of fear to a crowd of hostile people

The thought that one who has experienced the saving grace and eternal love of Gpod in being born again and given the spirit. Would somehow repent back to his previous view of unbelief is just another cheap and selfish way to claim we must earn salvation.

 

[Taken]

One must remember, Judas never had faith in Gods provision that he needed a savior of his soul. He wanted a savior of his life from rome.. Which is why in the end, he denied.

I have to somewhat disagree.
The Gift of FAITH is given a man FOR HEARING the Word of God.
Judas HEARD. God gave Judas (measures of Faith) for Hearing.
As Scripture reveals, Gods Gift of Faith is given IN MEASURES. Hear little of Gods Word, Receive little of Gods Gift of Faith. Increase HEARING Gods Word, Increase of Faith is given that man.
A man who STOPS Hearing, STOPS Receiving Gods Gift of Faith.
That is a DEED.
A man who Hears, receives Faith, is steering toward BELIEVING.
A man who STOPS receiving Faith, and never RETURNS to HEARING, never RETURNS to Receiving Faith...is called having FALLEN FROM FAITH.
THAT...imo IS what Happened to Judas.
* The WHY was Judas’ PRIDE. He thought he KNEW better than Jesus.
Judas was the Treasurer of the MONEY the Apostles had for their travels and need. Judas wanted to SPEND the MONEY on one thing, and Jesus said no.
* Judas in a PRIDEFUL huff, stormed off, to Betray Jesus, whom Judas was mad, according to Judas’ thinking Jesus should have done what Judas wanted.
(Jesus called him a Devil, BECAUSE Judas behaved like Satan. Satan thought himself greater than God, that Satan Himself should Sit in Gods Heavenly Place Above the Stars. That was NEVER a possibility. That was Satan’s great LIE. Lying about Gods WORD, is effectively, KILLING Gods Word, which is what occurred while the Foundation of the Earth was being Established, and BEFORE mankind was created. Later we learn the Word of God, IS called by the NAME JESUS, and thus effectively, it was Satan, the First Murderer, who KILLED Jesus, the Word of God, while the foundation of the earth was being established.
John 8:44
Rev 13:8

Further note: Since the Word of God, whom we know IS Jesus, the Lamb of God, who was KILLED BEFORE mankind was created....All OT men, who continued IN Belief IN Gods Word....(even while Gods Words’ NAME was secret to them)....Like ANY man who Believes in Jesus, who Believes in the Word of God to the day they physically die....SHALL BE SAVED on the day of their physical death...
Same as Satan...
Judas, STOPPED hearing and STOPPED believing Gods Word ... JESUS....and became Separated, WITHOUT God.

Peter never stopped trusting Jesus had the means of eternal life. He denied him out of fear to a crowd of hostile people

There is no caveat, motive, (ie fear), as a reasonable reason to DENY the Word of God. Men learning, will naturally, wonder, doubt, be curious....however DENYING is absolute rejection.
The KNOwLeDGe....revealed, IS, as you say...Peter did trust Jesus, did believe Jesus, WHEN JESUS WAS IN Peter’s presence, and Peter could SEE Jesus.
* The big reveal is...ONCE Peter gained the knowledge Jesus IS the Christ, (John 14), and HOW Peter learned that knowledge, (Peter’s confidence IN Jesus increased)....and ONCE Peter became BAPTIZED in the Spirit, (Acts 1 -2), Peter’s fear...(afraid)....changed to Fear...(reverence for Christ the Lord God)....AND despite the threats, the mistreatment of other men, soldiers, kings, evil, wickedness of the world.....NOT ONCE ever again could or did Peter, deny (SIN AGAINST) the Lord God.... HE COULDN’T...Gods Spirit was IN Peter. (1 John 3:9)...and the same applies to every man IN Christ. :)

The thought that one who has experienced the saving grace and eternal love of Gpod in being born again and given the spirit. Would somehow repent back to his previous view of unbelief is just another cheap and selfish way to claim we must earn salvation.

It’s a Great lack of Spiritual Understanding....according to God, rather instead relying on a mans mindful understanding.

Flat out...Works a man does to glorify God, SHALL be REWARDED...BY the Son of man.
* Salvation is a GIFT, for the mans Service of Submission, giving their LIFE unto Death FOR God.
* WORKS...??

Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, HE CAN NEVER DENY God!
Precisely BECAUSE, as you quoted, God CANNOT DENY Himself.

For Christ to deny a person who has believed they would have to go back to unbelief. In which case they would not belong to Him anymore, and Christ could and would deny him. Can a real believer do that? The admonition in scripture is to keep believing. That means either you can in fact stop believing, or the admonition is a way of making sure you're really a believer. For surely, the attempt to hold fast the word of the gospel and live for him would reveal whether or not you really do have the word in you in salvation. But not if you're being told that your failure to live more and more like Christ doesn't mean anything toward if you're really saved or not. And that is the danger of the NEW OSAS. It doesn't do anything toward making sure people who say they believe really are saved because it denies the Biblical counsel that says how you live is how you can tell if you are really a child of God or not:

"10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10​

 

[Taken]

For Christ to deny a person who has believed they would have to go back to unbelief. In which case they would not belong to Him anymore, and Christ could and would deny him. Can a real believer do that? The admonition in scripture is to keep believing. That means either you can in fact stop believing, or the admonition is a way of making sure you're really a believer. For surely, the attempt to hold fast the word of the gospel and live for him would reveal whether or not you really do have the word in you in salvation. But not if you're being told that your failure to live more and more like Christ doesn't mean anything toward if you're really saved or not. And that is the danger of the NEW OSAS. It doesn't do anything toward making sure people who say they believe really are saved because it denies the Biblical counsel that says how you live is how you can tell if you are really a child of God or not:

"10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10​

I find ZERO danger in OSAS. In fact I find quite the opposite, as Scripture reveals, Assurance and Complete inner peace despite the World’s corruption, chaos, never ending fear mongering.

Jesus was sent to offer inner peace in a world of corruption, that by circumstance every living man who desires peace, is surrounded by cunning, conniving, deceitful corruption.

Jesus puts it quite plainly...
Some may think He was sent to give “peace on earth”,
Yet Jesus says no, He came to cause Division.
That Division is “with” or “without” the Lord God Almighty.
That Division is expressly, “inner peace”, WITH Him, by, through, of Him,
Expressly by a mans Free will election, to have.
That once given a man, once received of a man, Forever By His Power, He would sustain that Peace with-IN that man.
Or a mans Free will election, to reject, and be “WITHOUT” His Gift, and subsequently “WITHOUT” the Lord God Almighty.

Big difference between being “WITH” God and being “IN” God.
Big difference between God being “WITH” a man and God being “IN” a man.
God “WITH” a man, is BECAUSE the man Believes, with no confession required. Any time God can STOP being with a man, BECAUSE the man STOPS Believing.
Man “WITH” God, is BECAUSE the man Believes, with no confession required.
Any time the man can STOP being with God, Because the man STOPS Believing.
God “IN” a man, is BECAUSE the man has Confessed True heart-ful Belief.
Men “IN” God, is BECAUSE of Gods Works IN a man WHO HAS Confessed heart-ful Belief.
Once Gods Works ARE accomplished “IN” a man, What IS ACCOMPLISHED, ONCE and FOREVER, is God WILL NEVER Leave that man. And that man WILL NEVER LEAVE God. All effected by, through, of Gods Power.


Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

John 7:
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

Gen 17:
[13] He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Luke 4:
[18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me...
[19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
[21] And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Heb 7
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

John 14:
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15;
[4] Abide in me, and I in you.

Act 3:
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

John 14:
[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Saved ONCE, Saved FOREVER.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I find ZERO danger in OSAS.

I said the NEW OSAS.
↓↓↓

And that is the danger of the NEW OSAS. It doesn't do anything toward making sure people who say they believe really are saved because it denies the Biblical counsel that says how you live is how you can tell if you are really a child of God or not:

"10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10

The hardest thing about all this is getting people to realize there is the old OSAS, the one Calvin taught, and the NEW OSAS that is completely contrary to the old one. The old OSAS taught that if you fell away into sin and unbelief you were never really saved to begin with. And so it does not have the danger attached to it of making people think they are still saved even if they go back to unbelief and their old lifestyle of sin.

 

[Taken]

I said the NEW OSAS.
↓↓↓

The hardest thing about all this is getting people to realize there is the old OSAS, the one Calvin taught, and the NEW OSAS that is completely contrary to the old one. The old OSAS taught that if you fell away into sin and unbelief you were never really saved to begin with. And so it does not have the danger attached to it of making people think they are still saved even if they go back to unbelief and their old lifestyle of sin.

Sorry. This “new OSAS”, is news to me. But then I should not be surprised...changing the truth into a lie, is rampant...and in Churches appears to be no exception.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sorry. This “new OSAS”, is news to me. But then I should not be surprised...changing the truth into a lie, is rampant...and in Churches appears to be no exception.

Apparently, it's been around even since the Reformation, but it never gained any traction in the church. It's in these last few decades that it's been spreading in the church.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Point is....a believing man, can at any time DENY Him.
We have examples...Judas...remember? Peter....remember?

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, HE CAN NEVER DENY God!
Precisely BECAUSE, as you quoted, God CANNOT DENY Himself.

The Point is....ONCE a man IS Converted, He IS BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Enters and Dwells IN that man.
“IF” that man, DENIED God, SO ALSO would the Holy Spirit “IN” that man be DENYING God....

A man WHO desires and takes Gods Holy Spirit Baptism IN that man, that man IS Agreeing to become MADE a new man, that CAN NEVER DENY GOD, Expressly BY the POWER of God entering IN that man.

That is expressly WHY God can proclaim....No man can pluck a Saved man out of Gods hand...John 10:28-29

That is expressly WHY God can proclaim...a born again man, CAN NEVER AGAIN (DENY, NOT BELIEVE) ie SIN AGAINST God... 1 John 3:9

That is expressly WHY a man WHO HAS become Baptized with Gods Holy Spirit, CAN PROCLAIM, he IS Saved, Once and Forever. He is KEPT Saved, By Gods Power IN him....1 John 4:4
He can NEVER be separated FROM God...Matt 28:20

Glory to God,
Taken

I think what you are describing here is the difference between just believing, and trusting.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think what you are describing here is the difference between just believing, and trusting.

or having faith i guess, ya
the 5 diff kinds of "belief" are described OT, but belief and faith are conflated, NT; weird

 

[Taken]

I think what you are describing here is the difference between just believing, and trusting.

Specifically it is a difference between Believing in the Mind and Heartfully Confessing Belief.

Belief of the Mind is the intellect of the mind.
The mind picks and chooses between this idea and that idea and lands on a logical conclusion.
A man can change the thoughts of his mind.

Belief of the Heart is the Truth of a man. (Which is called the spirit of man.)
A mans Truth simply IS. Rather than logically concluding BETWEEN this and that.
For example, a man says to a women he desires to marry...
I Love you...period.
Not.
I Love you and I Love my last girlfriend, but you are a better cook, and I like to eat, so between you and her, I have logically concluded, I should marry you.

More often than not, it seems people marry based on logical conclusions, (including, if it doesn’t work out, eh, divorce is an option)...rather than the truth in their heart.

God is not interested in a wishy washy relationship with individual persons.
His method is to require a mans true heart’s (spirit) thoughts commitment.
Before ... a man can become Saved, while still alive in his flesh.
THAT ^ is OSAS. Because the relationship is KEPT Forever, by the Power of God IN the man...ie Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
THAT ^ is an appeasement, to such man, BECAUSE, we live in a world surround by corruption, evil, wickedness....yet Never can such evil and wickedness trick, fool, deceive a man away from God.

And .......endurance (continuing) of belief to the day his body dies, to THEN become Saved...This man is still vulnerable to the worlds Corruption, and can still be tricked, fooled, deceived away from God, Because Gods Power is NOT “IN” him.

 

[kcnalp]

You are dead to me, blind man.....I only have one remaining word to say to you——Pffffftttttt!

Typical OSAS, when you have ZERO Scripture you turn to personal insults!

 

[kcnalp]

Lol......talk about, “ NO SCRIPTURE!”......... what a brilliant debater you are! No Scripture....no evidence ....no points being made....it’s just “ wrong” because you say so....are you a Third grade drop- out or something? ( apologies to all the third graders that are smarter than you are)

NOW I am officially done with you ....apologies for jumping the gun

You should be blaming God. He is the Author of the nonOSAS Christian Bible.

 

[kcnalp]

is that all you can say ? i mean seriously that is your best

Well yeah, Satan is the author of OSAS.

 

[kcnalp]

LOL

Judging nonOSASers as unsaved is "LOL"? OSASers aren't gonna like Judgment Day.

Matthew 7:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;

 

[kcnalp]

Uh oh @Ezra ... The accuser of judging has judged you... oops!
Uh oh @Ezra ... The accuser forgot to identify “THE LAW”, the you supposedly claim justified you.

LOL -

No OSAS Scripture? Of course not! There are NONE!

 

[kcnalp]

Since there are dozens of Scriptures which support the eternal security of the saints, how exactly do you define "OSAS"?

NONE of which say we can't forsake God.

 

[kcnalp]

The words “once saved always saved” is a spiritual understanding of Gods Word, given men WHO ARE spiritual, understood by men WHO ARE spiritual.

If you can not FIND “OSAS” in Scripture... you speak for yourself.
If you can not SEE “OSAS” GIVEN you in Scripture... you speak for yourself.

You have NOT ONCE claimed you ARE SAVE...nor as anyone claimed that for you.

You have NOT ONCE claimed you ARE NOT SAVED...nor as anyone claimed that for you.

YOUR repeated claim IS Gods Salvation given a man ONCE and FOREVER, is of Satan.

NOT ONCE has anyone claimed “FOR THEMSELVES” they received “salvation”
From Satan.

The ONLY ONE connecting “the Lords Gift of Salvation to Satan”...
IS YOU. YOU speak for yourself. And the evidence is repetitively in YOUR own words, YOUR own posts.
YOU judging men for trusting Gods Gift of Salvation given them...
IS A FAIL!

OSAS is a term for the most judgmental people I know of.

Matthew 7:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;