Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Like I said, he is so busy trying to attack. He does not pay attention to what anyone, or even appears himself, says..
Taken
Well-Known Member
Seems some people have confused Spiritual Fruit with man made Fruit loops.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Free Grace doctrine
The Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist doctrine has been espoused by Charles Stanley, Norman Geisler, Zane C. Hodges, Bill Bright, and others. This view, like the traditional Calvinist view, emphasizes that people are saved purely by an act of divine grace that does not depend at all on the deeds of the individual, and for that reason (in contrary to Calvinism) insists that nothing the person can do can affect their salvation. In the Free Grace view, saints can fall away (stop persevering) in both conduct and faith yet remain eternally secure.
The Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist doctrine has been espoused by Charles Stanley, Norman Geisler, Zane C. Hodges, Bill Bright, and others. This view, like the traditional Calvinist view, emphasizes that people are saved purely by an act of divine grace that does not depend at all on the deeds of the individual, and for that reason (in contrary to Calvinism) insists that nothing the person can do can affect their salvation. In the Free Grace view, saints can fall away (stop persevering) in both conduct and faith yet remain eternally secure.
Perseverance of the saints - Wikipedia
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I wasn't talking about assessing whether or not other people are saved. I'm talking about assessing yourself to see if you are in the faith. But, it is very clearly taught in the Bible how we are to recognize those who are false and are not really born again.
There are no sources to those statements, did you notice that?
So we can read what someone says they said, but not what they themselves said.
Things that make you go Hmmmmm.
Even so, I still maintain that this whole discussion reveals serious lack of understanding of what Justification and Rebirth are.
Much love!
exactly he knows just enough Bible to be dangerous .i seen many debates over osas osnas his ideology is out in left field . he simply has no clue
this is widely discussed or should i say fought over... i have studied both sides out i can see both points the doctrine of once in Grace always . is widely confused !! security is there what it is not and that is a license / excuse to sin and stay that way. i,m sorry its one thing to have something your struggling with . compared to not making a effort to try to overcome /conquer . in reality its not our job to say who is saved and who is not.
there should be something in us and there is the spirit of truth . that tells us we are wrong its called conviction as per kcnalp my hound dog could do a better prestation. i do lean toward what that Calvinist believe p.o.s preservation of the saints those truly saved will stick with it
Taken
Well-Known Member
Okay thank you.
There are Three words, modernly people IMO in general use interchangeably;
* Works * Deeds * Service.
However: Personally I believe;
* Works lean more toward a physical effort.
(EX lifting, pulling, tugging, etc.)
* Deeds lean more toward a conscious effort.
(EX tit for tat, will do IF, etc.)
* Service leans more toward an effort revealing a favoring to stand with.
(EX desire, willingness, aid, help, enjoin, etc.)
Agree, Receiving Salvation does not depend on a mans “DEEDS”
As well, Receiving Salvation does not depend on a mans “WORKS”.
A Converted (saved / quickened man), is as well, neither KEPT saved, by his DEEDS or WORKS.
How a man Performs a REASONABLE Service unto God, is expressly by presenting their Body as a “holy” living sacrifice....found in Rom 12:1.
Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
That is Expressly accomplished:
By a LIVING man, who Agrees, By his Truth, in his Heart, Confessed with His mouth, he Believes IN God, IN Jesus IS the Christ,
and the response of:
the Lord Gods “WORKS” of Forgiveness (for having HAD disbelief), ie MAKING that mans body “holy” and the Lord Gods Works of Conversion IN that man, ie BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit (entering IN that man) ie the Spirit of God, WHO IS Christ.
So, according to Scripture...a reasonable SERVICE is required of a man, to RECEIVE his Salvation, (that God Offered to EVERY man) WHILE alive in his Flesh.
It is a once and forever BINDING CONTRACT, between a heartful agreeing one man and Almighty agreeing one Lord God.
Forever God will be WITH that man, and Forever that man will be WITH God.
Now SHOULD such a man DESIRE some Rewards God Offers ‘in addition” to Gods Conversion, Gods Works???
Yep, Yep, Yep....men can DO ENDLESS, daily, all kinds of “works” to Glorify Gods Great Name....and God WILL reward such man.
Can such a man argue, agree, disagree, with men over politics, healthcare, clothing, wars, behaviors between men, religion, religious practices,
etc. SURE....
^ Does that negatively AFFECT that mans received Salvation? No.
^ Does that negatively AFFECT that mans “REWARDS” from God? Yes.
Because those things DO NOT Glorify Gods Great Name....
Such things shall be BURNED, along with all other things, objects, buildings, works, that did not Glorify Gods Great Name.
OSAS, as it stands according to Scripture. :)
Taken
Well-Known Member
I’m not struggling. Odd you are making such a claim FOR me!
already have secured my standing IN Christ. His POWER IN me is already accredited for my inclusion in His works of Overcoming.
maybe i should have been more clear on the struggling of sin unless you say you never have problems with sin..
i have always liked your post and have never came out against you.. buttttttttttttttt
i dont think ever directly said any thing in the line of you struggling.. why is when a person post it is automatically assumed directly towards them?
since you brought the subject up we are to take up our cross and deny ours elf ( this is a full time job as we are creatures of habit/old ways ! we are told to mortify the flesh ..i wonder why paul wrote that ? could it be possible our flesh ignore the spirit ?
but to set the record straight i was nor did i make such a claim... heck its a forum with people sitting at a computer . reminds me of cfs the owner and his followers of staff. those that agree with him . like to play principal put you in time out. when you disagree with them.. BTW struggling with something does not mean your ( we ) are NOT secure in Christ.
it means your a human were all human were all broken and we all need jesus... we are all prisoners' of our own device.. in one way or the other if we was sinless perfect we would have no need for Jesus .
i hope this clears things up
Taken
Well-Known Member
I was this;
All good!
Yep all human; none perfect, Yet have the option to become perfect-ed IN Christ.
Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1John.4
[12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
....The KEY WORD here is * NEVER*.......
When Jesus Himself says if you have Faith in Him to SAVE you that you can “ NEVER PERISH” or “ NEVER COME UNDER CONDEMNATION” , that’s good enough for me.......Why ,you ask? If one can simply understand what the word, “ NEVER” means, the case against OSAS is proven to be a False Doctrine .....please look up the Word “ Never” .......I have.....Case Closed. OSAS is FACT.
Can you sincerely say “ Jesus is Lord?” If your Answer is “ yes” —- you are in the Faith.....but then, that was just what Paul taught ......and after all.....what does “he” know?
If you are Born Again, which means that you have the Holy Spirit in you— you are Saved....Paul said that it was not possible to say that( Jesus is Lord) and mean it without having the Holy Spirit in you....if it seems to you that The bar is set pretty low.....too bad....it’s what the Bible says....
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Correct...!
“IF”....a man DOES “THIS”....”THEN” a man can hope or be assured of “THAT’.
Never...leave you
Are...sanctified
Are...saved
Shall...be saved
Alway...with you
Forever...with you
Hope...to become saved
Assured...you are saved
Fact IS;
Men under the OLD Covenant: HOPE
* IF a man DID this...Then a man could HOPE for That.
Men under the NEW Covenant:
* IF a man DOES this..Then a man could be ASSURED of That.
Fact IS;
NEW Testament...BETTER Testament...NEW Covenant...
* Some men had LOST their way, living under NO Covenant. (ISRAEL)
* Some men were NEVER under a Covenant.(GENTILES)
* Jesus was SENT to SEEK the LOST.
* Jesus SENT Men to SEEK the LOST, and thereafter to SEEK the GENTILES.
Fact IS; NEW TESTAMENT - New Covenant
Fact IS: God Provided FOR ALL MEN (Israel & Gentiles) A GIFT, called Salvation.
Fact IS; ANY man Desiring Gods Provision of His Gift of Salvation... *MUST FREELY TAKE IT, to personally POSSESS Gods Gift of Salvation.
Fact IS: ONCE a man “TAKES” Gods Gift of Salvation, he NO LONGER “HOPES” to Receive his Salvation...he personally HAS “ONCE and FOREVER” Gods Gift of Salvation.
Fact IS:
* Some men Freely Choose, to REMAIN UNDER the OLD COVENANT, and Continue HOPING to Receive Salvation, ON The DAY of “their” Physical Bodily Death. (And IF ANY man Believes and continues BELIEVING, they SHALL receive Salvation on the day of their Physical Bodily Death.)
* Some men Freely Choose, to REMAIN UNDER NO COVENANT. (They Have NEITHER “Hope or Assurance” to Receive Salvation.)
* Some men Freely Choose, to INCLUDE THEMSELVES UNDER the NEW COVENANT (that Jesus was SENT to PROVIDE, OFFER, and GIVE to ALL men”, to FREELY TAKE.)
***“IF” any man freely chooses to TAKE “their” Gift of Salvation...(according to Gods WAY of Taking their Gift of Salvation)...
“Their” Gift of Salvation IS ASSUREDLY GIVEN “them” ONCE and “FOREVER”....IS ASSUREDLY RECEIVED “unto them” ONCE and “FOREVER”...
FACT IS:
Gods WAY, ‘under the NEW COVENANT’...IS a man RECEIVING his Gift of
SALVATION......BEFORE his physical Bodily Death. (That man no longer “HOPES” for what he already has been GIVEN!) That man IS ASSURED of having RECEIVED his Salvation, ASSURED he can NEVER Lose his SALVATION, EXPRESSLY BECAUSE, Gods Spirit (POWER), has ENTERED
INTO that man, and KEEPS Once, Always and Forever, that mans Salvation IN that man.
FACT is:
I said to @kcnalp, that “I had no knowledge “IF” he was sav-ED”.
(his response was:...I was judging him, which is FALSE. Me having no knowledge of IF he was Sav-ED, is NOT a judgement about him, it was a statement about me!)
* His further response WAS...”he believes”.
* BELIEVING - (according to Gods WAY), is the WAY, to HOPE, IF one endures BELIEVING to the day of their physical body death, THEY SHALL BE SAVED “THEN”.
* All @kcnalp Revealed by his own words, (ie. “he believes”), is that his own Freewill choice, IS Hope, IS reliance on his own power Enduring, to KEEP believing, and receive his Salvation on the day of his physical bodily death.
* ^ That is @kcnalp Freewill Choice, as it is with any other man to MAKE his own Freewill Choosing.
FACT is;
I (as well as others), have our OWN, Freewill to choose for ourselves, TO TAKE what God SENT for us to HAVE NOW, (while bodily alive in our flesh) and be ASSURED what we TAKE, is Once and Forever, and can NEVER be lost.
Fact is;
I can respect what @kcnalp has freely chosen FOR HIMSELF. (Albeit a slippery slope, since evil spirits and wicked men sitting in power seats, Each having greater powers (than men relying on their own power to keep their belief), to convince them to lose their belief, by, through, of, such evil spirits and wicked mens conniving, trickery, deceit, enticements, temptations, bullying, forbidding, silencing, etc.
Fact is;
@kcnalp has gone above and beyond judging, accusing, chastising, Repeatedly, such men who HAVE FREELY Chosen to Receive their Gift of Salvation NOW, ONCE and FOREVER, BEFORE physical Bodily Death, KEPT FOREVER unto such men, BY the POWER OF God’s SPIRIT IN them.
Fact is;
@kcnalp not ONLY, disrespects other mens own Freewill Choice of WHAT God Sent to all men TO FREELY TAKE, (before their physical bodily death)...but by default, MAKES what Gods Sent Irrelevant...
and further MAKES what God Sent FOR all men TO FREELY TAKE;
EXPRESSLY, (by @kcnalp own words), a GIFT from SATAN!!
@kcnalp ~ As embarrassing as it might be, You should exert yourself to learn the TRUTH. ALL men are not the SAME, ALL men make their own Freewill Choices.
The TRUTH IS: God SENT to ALL men His Gift of Salvation.
The TRUTH IS: Each man CAN FREELY CHOOSE:
TO Reject Gods Gift.
TO Hope for Gods Gift, upon physical bodily death.
TO Take and Receive Gods Gift now, before physical bodily death.
Glory to God,
I have Freely Chosen to TAKE Gods Gift of Salvation, Assured By Gods Word, His own Power, SHALL keep my Gift unto me, ONCE, ALWAYS and FOREVER!
Praise God, whose WORD IS TRUE and FAITHFUL!
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Twisted HALF TRUTH..
Saints are men who are following, hearing, BELIEVING...(BY THEIR OWN POWER)...still subjected to higher powers of evil spirits and wicked men who as well occupy a BELIEVING man’s same habitat (EARTH). And such evil powerful spirits and wicked powerful men, ARE continually on the prowl to CONVINCE Believing men, to SWAY AWAY from and FORGO their BELIEVING IN the Lord God.
A BELIEVING man IS NOT SECURE, to KEEP SECURE.
A BELIEVING man (keeping his BELIEF, by his OWN power), IS expressly vulnerable to powerful evil spirits and wicked men OF this world.
Those BELIEVING men, alive in their flesh, are called Saints...
Believing men, who have physically DIED, believing, (saved AFTER their physical death, are ALSO Saints.)
A SECURE man IS a man WHO (while bodily alive in his flesh), HAS Reached out and TAKEN Gods Gift of Salvation, WHICH the POWER of God enters “IN” that man, AND KEEPS that mans Gift of Salvation IN that man Once and Forever.
That man IS Forgiven (BY God) of ALL of that mans SIN Against God.
That man IS KEPT freed (BY Gods Power in that man), From EVER AGAIN SINNING Against God.
That man IS once and forever IN a SECURED personal one on one (that man and God), relationship.
FOREVER accomplished...God WITH that man. That man WITH God.
Those men...are Are NOT “called to become SAINTS (believers)...they ARE SAINTS Securely Converted “IN” Christ...once and forever.
Can ANY evil spirit or Can ANY wicked man, SWAY THAT (converted IN Christ man) AWAY from God? No.
Can THAT (Believing or IN Christ) man, have conflicts, troubles, disagreements, agreements, trespasses, BETWEEN and AMONG “other men”? Absolutely.
* Does such troubles BETWEEN and AMONG “other men” CHANGE, or UNDO...
A BELIEVING mans Belief...? maybe, maybe not.
An IN-Christ mans Security...? Absolutely Not.
* Here is Paul, in Rome, speaking to men, CALLED to BECOME (saints;ie BELIEVERS)...Paul is Preaching the Word of God, that men will hear, and Freely choose to BELIEVE...or not.
Rom 1:
[7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
* Here is Paul, going to Jerusalem, to minister to the saints, (Believers).
Rom 15:
[25] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
* Here is Paul, ministering to men in Corinth, called to be saints, accepted their calling (Belief), and Taken Gods Offering of Salvation IN Christ.(ie men who ARE the church of God.)
1 Cor 1:
[2] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Men who ARE SECURE in their SALVATION, Once and Forever...
is ONLY those men, who FREELY GIVE their FLESH BODY unto DEATH, BECAUSE of their BELIEF IN the Lord God Almighty.
BECAUSE...
God CAN NOT QUICKEN a natural mans Body, INTO Spiritual Life, Until that natural mans Body First DIES.
1 Cor 1:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
ALL mens natural body’s MUST Die, God requires it. (Gen 5:9)
* Some men choose to give their body’s unto death, via crucified with Christ Jesus, and Receive their Salvation Now.
* Some men choose to Believe in the Lord God, and wait to see, IF they Continue in Belief, to the day they physically die, and IF SO, they shall be Saved THEN.
* Some men choose to NOT Believe ever, and shall DIE “in” their sin, and NEVER be saved, and instead their body shall be destroyed and forgotten.
OSAS, is a promise from God, “IF” a man chooses, while alive in his flesh, to freely be crucified with Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
FREED FROM SIN, IS NOT, the twisted teaching, of “falling away” and “remaining” eternally secure.
FREED FROM SIN, IS, KEPT by Gods POWER, IN a man, that that man CAN NEVER Fall AWAY.
Glory to God,
Taken
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I like these.
If I may add. Work is done to recieve something, a reward a wage or personal gain (say like your car is broke, you WORK two fix it. You now have gained a working car)
A deed, yes tit for tat. I give, but then i Receive
Where as service comes from the heart, It is not to gain for self. It is not self thinking, It is always outward focused.
I think this shows the difference of the pharisee type of christian who focuses on works. And the graced based believer who focuses on service.
Sadly, the pharisee type christian does not like the grace based (In regards to the gospel) . He believes in some sense he is grace based. So he attacks the grace based of hating works. And loving sin.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If you "mean it" you'll have the life to show for it.
You can't ignore the rest of scripture which says the truly born again person has the life to show it. And the not born again person has the life to show he's not born again. A genuine confession that Jesus is Lord, and the changing life go hand in hand. You can't separate them as you are trying to do to defend your super-duper hyper grace doctrine.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
With the exception of maybe one person, is there any of us who do not agree that a BELIEVING person will never perish? We all know that believing people are not the ones that are condemned and go to the fiery place. That's why it is incumbent upon the believing person to keep believing. And that's why I say the core issue of whether or not OSAS is true is whether or not a true believing person can ever stop believing, because, if it is possible, that's the only way they're going to lose salvation. Can a true believer reject the faith and forsake Christ? We know they can be faithless in their believing, cheating on their taxes out of fear, launching into a fit of rage when the pressure gets to high, etc., but can the true believer actually turn their back on Christ in unbelief? That is the question.
"if we deny Him, He will also deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:12-13
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