John Calvin and Calvinism.

[praise_yeshua]

God choosing me IN Christ. If God doesn't choose the person, who chooses that person? How is that person saved? By their choice? That makes them higher than God.

Funny how you claim such a choice would make me "higher than God" when you claim that God chose YOU instead of Jesus Christ.

Those that reject Jesus Christ are fools. There is no merit in accept a gift offered to all. We rely upon the work of Jesus Christ.

A drowning man crying out for help doesn't earn anything.

 

[praise_yeshua]

LOL I'm not reluctantly doing anything. You are the one that has yet to make one accurate claim regarding reformed theology.

Laugh all your want. Enjoy it while you can.

Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

[PinSeeker]

Divine Nature is Intrinsic value.

That makes no sense at all. Divine nature is what Jesus has, because He is deity, God made flesh, one with the Father, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.

To say the Incarnation has no "bearing" on what we are discussing is ridiculous. I'm sure you want to avoid this fact at all cost. You are devaluing Jesus Christ and replacing His wonderous position with your sinful self.

His "no bearing" comment was not meant to relate lack of importance, but merely not germane, really to what was being discussed.

"Devaluing Christ..." Give it a rest, man, for your own sake.

You're good at foisting stuff on folks. Well... maybe not so much "good at it," but you do it often. It's quite uncool.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[reformed1689]

Funny how you claim such a choice would make me "higher than God" when you claim that God chose YOU instead of Jesus Christ.

Those that reject Jesus Christ are fools. There is no merit in accept a gift offered to all. We rely upon the work of Jesus Christ.

A drowning man crying out for help doesn't earn anything.

Who is rejecting Christ? I most certainly am not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That makes no sense at all. Divine nature is what Jesus has, because He is deity, God made flesh, one with the Father, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.

You're just proving you don't know the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Intrinsic qualities of Divinity is a important aspect in defending the Orthodox teaching of the Hypostatic Union. Don't rely upon others to believe for you. Know it yourself. That is how I recognize false teachings. I know the Truth myself. Brick by brick. Precept by precept.

His "no bearing" comment was not meant to relate lack of importance, but merely not germane, really to what was being discussed.

"Devaluing Christ..." Give it a rest, man, for your own sake.

You're good at foisting stuff on folks. Well... maybe not so much "good at it," but you do it often. It's quite uncool.

Grace and peace to you.

When a Calvinist claims that God chose them and LATER chose the means of their Salvation, Jesus Christ, then you devaluing Jesus Christ. You are putting YOURSELF BEFORE HIM.....

Jesus Christ Preeminent in all Things. By the way,..... that means "FIRST".... in all things.

When God formed this world, He did to make a people after His own likeness and in His own image. In the image of Jesus Christ. That has nothing to do with choosing YOU.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[PinSeeker]

Funny how you claim such a choice would make me "higher than God" when you claim that God chose YOU instead of Jesus Christ.

He didn't claim" anything. But the effect of one saying his choice effects God's choice is to make himself out to be higher than God... for God to even be subservient to him. He might as well praise himself for his own salvation, which is quite silly indeed.

And, God the Father did not choose Christ. He did send Him, as Jesus Himself said many times.

Those that reject Jesus Christ are fools.

Agreed.

There is no merit in accept a gift offered to all.

But to say that it is offered to all without discrimination and then to say, "I was smart enough to take God at His Word" (or something to that effect) is, in effect, claiming merit for oneself and therefore deservedness, based on one's own actions/works, of God's salvation. And such is not the case.

We rely upon the work of Jesus Christ.

That's right. And we rest in God's assurance having been given Christ and therefore the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Hebrews 11:1). This is God-given faith.

A drowning man crying out for help doesn't earn anything.

A dead man can't cry out for anything. Nor can one who is unborn.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Who is rejecting Christ? I most certainly am not.

You claim that God chose you, individually. That is ridiculous. You're a nobody just like everyone else in this world. God chose His Son Jesus Christ.

When you claim that God chose YOU... you are replacing Jesus Christ.

 

[reformed1689]

No. God is too smart to force people to love Him and too smart to arbitrarily pick YOU.

So who is saved and WHY. Not sure why you keep dodging this. In YOUR theology, why are people saved?

 

[praise_yeshua]

He didn't claim" anything. But the effect of one saying his choice effects God's choice is to make himself out to be higher than God... for God to even be subservient to him. He might as well praise himself for his own salvation, which is quite silly indeed.

And, God the Father did not choose Christ. He did send Him, as Jesus Himself said many times.

I don't believe you. I believe the Scriptures. You're either purposely lying or you don't know any better.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

A dead man can't cry out for anything. Nor can one who is unborn.
Grace and peace to you.

I said a "drowning man". You're conflating. Why are you being so deceptive?

It doesn't seem like you really care that much for Jesus Christ. You're always putting yourself before Him. Why is that?

 

[reformed1689]

No. That is not what God said. That is what Calvin said and you're following Calvin. Not God.

God did not say there are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy? How sure are you of that?

 

[reformed1689]

Divine Nature is Intrinsic value. To say the Incarnation has no "bearing" on what we are discussing is ridiculous. I'm sure you want to avoid this fact at all cost. You are devaluing Jesus Christ and replacing His wonderous position with your sinful self.

How on earth am I doing that? You again are making absurd arguments.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So who is saved and WHY. Not sure why you keep dodging this. In YOUR theology, why are people saved?

I've already answered you with the Scriptures. You rejected them. Not me. Here. Read them again.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Why are the Scriptures never enough for a Calvinist? They don't seem to recognize the Scriptures when they're given to them. Might it be that they rely too much on Calvin?

 

[praise_yeshua]

How on earth am I doing that? You again are making absurd arguments.

I've told you multiple times. You have replaced God's choice in Jesus Christ with the claim that God chose YOU.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God did not say there are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy? How sure are you of that?

Strawman. I never said that.

 

[reformed1689]

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What do you think this verse means?

 

[reformed1689]

Strawman. I never said that.

Really? Because that is what I had in my post and you said "No. That is not what God said." So now do you not remember what you said or are you hoping people don't go back and look?

 

[reformed1689]

I've told you multiple times. You have replaced God's choice in Jesus Christ with the claim that God chose YOU.

God chose Jesus for what exactly? Do you even know what you are talking about? God chose to save Jesus? Because salvation is what we are talking about.

 

[PinSeeker]

You're just proving you don't know the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

LOL! The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father in the Son's name. They have many attributes, but "intrinsic quality" is just... well, silly. The triune Jehovah is what He is.

Don't rely upon others to believe for you.

When a Calvinist claims that God chose them and LATER chose the means of their Salvation, Jesus Christ, then you devaluing Jesus Christ.

No Calvinist "claims" anything of the sort.

Jesus Christ Preeminent in all Things.

That He most certainly is.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Right, but you apparently misunderstand what it means for God to have foreknown us (it's assuredly not merely knowing who would choose Him beforehand), and possibly what Paul means by "firstborn" (David became the firstborn of his brothers, even as the youngest of all).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[reformed1689]

I've already answered you with the Scriptures. You rejected them. Not me. Here. Read them again.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Why are the Scriptures never enough for a Calvinist? They don't seem to recognize the Scriptures when they're given to them. Might it be that they rely too much on Calvin?

That is the how, I did not ask how. I asked why. Of course Scripture is enough, but you are giving irrelevant Scriptures.

 

[reformed1689]

It doesn't seem like you really care that much for Jesus Christ. You're always putting yourself before Him. Why is that?

He has done no such thing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What do you think this verse means?

I'm not going to answer every question you ask and you not do the same in return.