Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Ferris Bueller]

This "New" version you're claiming now exists. Provide evidence.

I'm confident that @BloodBought 1953 will be showing up to defend it. I think @marks subscribes to it, too. The problem is, they don't know that it is 'NEW' and not the original OSAS teaching of Calvin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@BloodBought 1953 is the NEW OSAS guru around here. Get with him. He'll probably get with you since I tagged him.

I can hardly ever have a discussion about sin in the context of OSAS without most people participating insisting that sin doesn't matter because salvation is not by works. That's 10,000 miles away from what the original OSAS by Calvin taught.

I never said doesn't matter. I do say that you sin. YOU. Are you saying you don't? If so, then you're not telling the truth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm confident that @BloodBought 1953 will be showing up to defend it. I think @marks subscribes to it, too. The problem is, they don't know that it is 'NEW' and not the original OSAS teaching of Calvin.

That is your fabrication. I'm sure their response is more "nuanced" than your appeals to them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This "New" version you're claiming now exists. Provide evidence.

Anyway, it's called 'Hypergrace', and 'Freegrace'. Google it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Anyway, it's called 'Hypergrace', and 'Freegrace'. Google it.

Why Google? I've been doing this for a very long time. Google is often wrong. I don't rely upon Google to define my theology.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I never said doesn't matter. I do say that you sin. YOU. Are you saying you don't? If so, then you're not telling the truth.

Slow down. I explained what I was talking about in regard to sin and the NEW OSAS. Go back and read my posts.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why Google? I've been doing this for a very long time. Google is often wrong. I don't rely upon Google to define my theology.

Then why rely on what I'm saying about it? Like I say, get it from the horses mouth. @BloodBought 1953 will be glad to explain it to you. 'Hypergrace' is a trigger word for him. He'll be glad to tell you how God's grace is 'hyper'. Extending even to the 'believer' who quits believing and goes back to unbelief and his old life of habitual, willing sin. He uses his own experience as the proof of that doctrine. The original OSAS said he was never saved to begin with when he stopped believing. The NEW OSAS says he remained saved the whole time.

 

[Taken]

You quoted John 14:16. Do you see the word "may" in there? That doesn't imply it is something that happens for certain. And have you never read John 15?

.

Sure, ‘may’. And that applies specifically to: WHO? Men who MAY believe, Men who MAY keep their belief (by their own Power), to the end of their bodily life...Men WHO MAY become Converted, and kept by the Power of God IN Them.

Remember what Jesus FORETOLD?
John 13:
[19] Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

And AFTER Jesus tells them, He SHALL Send the Comforter, In John 14, Jesus AGAIN reminds them, He is telling them BEFORE hand, what SHALL Come.

John.14
[29] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

This DAY is 2,000+ years later...what Jesus FORETOLD HAS COME TO PASS.

John 14:
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

FOR 2,000 + years men have been DECIDING, “IF” they want the “comforter” “WITH” them...or “IF” they want the “comforter” WITH and “IN” them forever.

[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

WHEN shall the comforter, the Holy Spirit of Truth, be IN a man?
AFTER Jesus left earth.
When a man Becomes Converted, FOREVER the Comforter IS WITH that man.

The Holy Spirit (ie Comforter), IS WITH men who ARE BELIEVING. Men who believe and STOP Believing, the Holy Spirit leaves that man, and is no long with that man.
The Holy Spirit NEVER

 

[praise_yeshua]

Slow down. I explained what I was talking about in regard to sin and the NEW OSAS. Go back and read my posts.

Not going to do it. Can you give me a summary? I'll take something short and to the point or I'll just stop here with you. Thanks

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then why rely on what I'm saying about it? Like I say, get it from the horses mouth. @BloodBought 1953 will be glad to explain it to you. 'Hypergrace' is a trigger word for him. He'll be glad to tell you how God's grace is 'hyper'. Extending even to the 'believer' who quits believing and goes back to unbelief and his old life of habitual, willing sin. He uses his own experience as the proof of that doctrine. The original OSAS said he was never saved to begin with when he stopped believing. The NEW OSAS says he remained saved the whole time.

Some "extreme" people can say anything. I'm not surprised at anything much anymore. The teaching of assurance in Jesus Christ, is fundamental to faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Different laws. One is from the beginning. The law of sin and death that has ruled mankind in death since Adam's first sin.

The other one was ADDED......

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Many people don't pay attention to what they read. They just accept what others say it means. Paul clearly established that there is no Jewish law for Gentiles.....

Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Paul makes it clear that the law that condemns us and which leads us to Christ is the law that was added AFTER the promise made to Abraham (remember, he's speaking to gentiles):

19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, for only one party; but God is one.21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Galatians 3:19-25​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not going to do it. Can you give me a summary? I'll take something short and to the point or I'll just stop here with you. Thanks

The sin that we all sin in our growing up and maturing in Christ is not the sin that Calvin said shows you were never born again. The sin in consideration of the OSAS discussion is the sin of rejecting Christ outright in unbelief and going back to your life of habitual, careless, willing sin. The old OSAS said that sin shows you were never really born again to begin with. The NEW Hypergrace/Freegrace OSAS says you are still saved even if you commit that sin.

 

[ScottA]

“ They see , yet they don’t see”
This is why Jesus said, “ Don’t cast your Pearls before Swine”..... I keep hearing “ Oinks” when some of these guys post...

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[Ferris Bueller]

The teaching of assurance in Jesus Christ, is fundamental to faith.

What I have noticed in OSAS discussions is people do not distinguish between assurance of salvation, and security of salvation. I say the important thing to know is that you have the assurance that you are really saved. Everybody knows that the ministry of Christ is secure - it won't fail like the Levitical ministry did. The important thing to know is whether or not you really possess the salvation offered by Christ that is more secure than the salvation offered by the Levitical ministry. The Bible says to seek to 'confirm your calling and election'. So instead of arguing whether or not you can really lose that which is secure, we need to do what the Bible says and assure that we really have that which is secure. And it tells us how to do that. And it has nothing to do with whether or not OSAS is true or not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Paul makes it clear that the law that condemns us and which leads us to Christ is the law that was added AFTER the promise made to Abraham (remember, he's speaking to gentiles):

19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, for only one party; but God is one.21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.23Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Galatians 3:19-25​

That is nonsense. Then how did God judge ALL THOSE BEFORE the law given to Moses?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What I have noticed in OSAS discussions is people do not distinguish between assurance of salvation, and security of salvation. I say the important thing to know is that you have the assurance that you are really saved. Everybody knows that the ministry of Christ is secure - it won't fail like the Levitical ministry did. The important thing to know is whether or not you really possess the salvation offered by Christ that is more secure than the salvation offered by the Levitical ministry. The Bible says to seek to 'confirm your calling and election'. So instead of arguing whether or not you can really lose that which is secure, we need to do what the Bible says and assure that we really have that which is secure. And it tells us how to do that. And it has nothing to do with whether or not OSAS is true or not.

Those that fear..... are not made perfect in love. Perfect love casts out fear. Fear has torment......

He has said, I will never leave thee or forsake thee.

Have personal assurance from the Spirit of God grants assurance. The Scriptures give us assurance that Jesus Christ will never forsake us.

If Jesus Christ could forsake His own, then He would forsake YOU....

What is wrong in what I just stated?

 

[Raccoon1010]

I think there will be LOTS of OSASers spending eternity with the Devil who made up the OSAS doctrine.

I don't believe in OSAS either. But I think the Lord can save someone that he desires to save, if that person desires to be saved.

 

[marks]

I see you don't know the original Calvinist teaching about OSAS.

Like I've said before at times . . . people have their opinions of their perceptions, and that can be a lot different than reality. But I always seem to come across people who don't seem to care about that. They take their opinions and perceptions as established fact and run with it.

You've siezed on the wording of one or two people about "leaving God", and taken it to lengths that they did not mean when they wrote those words.

I've been following this dialog with you and others for quite a while now. I'm always very interested in what other people think, and I pay close attention. I ask lots of questions, as you've seen. And I remember what people say, for the most part.

John (the Apostle, not Calvin) wrote that their leaving us showed they had not been of us. And that if they had been of us, they would have remained. This is what the Bible says about OSAS. That if you "leave", it's appearances only, you appeared to be "in", and you appeared to "go out", which made it appear that you were never "in".

That is OSAS then and now (apostolic times and modern times). There is no "new OSAS", this whole discussion shows a misapprehension of what rebirth is.

You don't stop being born from Adam, and you don't stop being born from God. It's just that simple.

Much love!

 

[marks]

At times. Yes. At times. No. Paul's appeal to allegory is certainly a clear indication but we don't have such a definitive statement for all OT Scripture. For example, the birth of Jacob and Esau is clearly allegorical. They represent the first and second Adam. Just making the point in the conversation.

But I would say those actually are identified being allegorical of various things. They represent God's faithfulness to whom He choses, and His antagonism to whom He is at war, Malachi tells us this. And that they show the necessity of God's election in Romans, and they show the difference between works of flesh and works of God's promise, in Galatians.

I feel like I'm forgetting other examples, but my point being the Bible identifies allegory, and also provides for us the true understanding. And that's when we have it on Biblical authority, we can point to the place, and say, Here, this is where God says that Esau is allegorical for being a slave, or whatever it may be.

Any assertion of allegory that is not identified as such in the Bible, and does not have Scripture telling what the allegory means, it simply lacks Scriptural authority, and is then a matter of personal opinion, which I think should not be elevated above that, becoming the foundation for your doctrine.

On thing I often find though is that sometimes these personal thoughts of how this illustrates such and such, I find many things in the Bible do that. We can be describing a doctrinal truth from one part of the Bible, and realize how this story of David or Ruth or a prophecy from Jeremiah seems to perfectly illustrate that doctrine. I see that a lot. But I think we need to be careful to separate that from an actual identified Biblical allegory.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think there will be LOTS of OSASers spending eternity with the Devil who made up the OSAS doctrine.

I think their will be far more NOSAS believers in hell. who think they were saved, But will be told on that fateful day, Depart from me, FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU.

because instead of trusting in God and his promises, they trusted in self. and thought all their might works in Jesus name was enough.