Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Ferris Bueller]

I believe change will occur.....I just maintain that it does not “ have” to occur....

It does have to occur. If it does not occur that person is not born again:

"9 ...because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. " 1 John 3:9-10
​

A changed person has to be changed...or else they're not changed.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“Believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ and PROVE that you do by doing good works and thou shalt be Saved” just isn’t in the KJV......

An accurate paraphrase would be like this:

'Believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ, and be saved, and prove that you are saved by doing good works.'​

The proving of ones' salvation is not done in order to be born again. It's done in order to confirm that you are born again and ready to stand before Jesus at the final judgment by fire (Hebrews 6:11).

See, that message builds people up in the building of God who will know for sure they are saved before it's too late to find out they're not, (like the 5 foolish virgins that found out too late that they were not prepared for the return of the bridegroom). And they will pass safely through the coming flames of judgment. And the worker who labored to establish them in the building of God will receive his reward. But your message does not exhort people to make sure they are saved, and so you will lose reward if they really aren't and just think they are. Your labor for them will be in vain. That's why we need to be careful how we build. We are to build in a way, and with the message that will result in reward. That's what 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 is about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I wonder how much the Thief on the Cross “changed”

With the only thing on his body that he could still move (his mouth), and in the short time he had left on earth, that thief on his cross went from cursing the Lord to worshiping the Lord. That's how he changed. Nobody wonders if the other thief who didn't change was saved or not. His behavior shows us he wasn't. That's never a topic of discussion.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Good works should flow NATURALLY from a Believer

And yet out of the other side of your mouth you say it doesn't have to. Either it does or it doesn't, BB. You have to get off the fence about this.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Anything That “ we” do to get Saved, Stay Saved or Prove That we “are” Saved is a dead work...

This has nothing to do with doing things to earn salvation. It has everything to do with knowing if you are really saved. The Bible clearly tells us to prove to ourselves that we are saved, and why. Works of living faith show that we have the Spirit of God in us in salvation.

Jesus said that the many people that he will turn away at the judgment were lawless. They thought their ministerial works showed they knew Jesus and that Jesus knew them. But they were not obedient to Jesus' commands, the thing that does show they know Jesus and that he knows them. They were deceived. Don't be a messenger of a gospel that misleads people that way. There's no reward in it. You yourself may be saved, but you won't receive a reward for laboring for people who just think they are saved but really aren't. Don't lose what you have labored for. Show them the scriptures that tell them how they can know they are really saved by how they act.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Fruit from a tree occurs naturally.....we don’t have to grab it by the trunk and shake it violently back and forth and yell at it and COMMAND it to “PRODUCE ...PRODUCE!!”.....

You are so very wrong about this. We are told to purposely and deliberately pursue the deeds and qualities of the Spirit. And to do that in order to be sure you have God's calling and election:

5 ...make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure." 2 Peter 1:5-10​

You have to get this out of your head that this is a works gospel. He's not telling us to become born again by making every effort to add to our faith. He's telling us to make sure we are born again by making every effort to add to our faith.

 

[Taken]

Once Saved, Always Saved?
^OP

Yes.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 14:
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Heb 10
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

2 John 1:
[2] For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, God gave us all brains... :)


No, but rather, as Paul says, "it (God's election of certain individuals to salvation) depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). Otherwise, grace ~ which is unmerited favor ~ is not really grace. And this is precisely what Paul says shortly thereafter, saying, "...if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6). We should note here that Paul in no way refutes free will; he does absolutely nothing of the sort. But he does say that our salvation doesn't depend on it ~ doesn't depend on our will or working ~ but on God's election.

Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

1) we can know that this verse does NOT mean man has no responsibility to obey the will of God for such an idea contradicts all the verses that requires man to obey as Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Acts of the Apostles 10:35; 1 John 3:10; etc. Salvation therefore is wholly dependent upon man using his free will to choose to obey God or not. Paul said to work out your OWN salvation clearly showing man does have a role in his own salvation:
save yourselves Acts 2:40
save thyself 1 Timothy 4:16
cleanse ourselves 2 Cor 7:1
cleanse your hands, purify your hearts James 4:8
you have purified your souls 1 Peter 1:22
if a man purge himself 2 Tim 2:21; 1 Cor 5:7
work out your own salvation Phil 2:12
wash away thy sins Acts 22:16
obey Him Hebrews 5:9
he that believeth John 3:16

2) we can know from Romans 9:16 that man did not deserve salvation nor can man earn salvation. Paul was proving to the Jew (who God cast off, see Romans 11) that God did not owe them salvation. Just being descendants of Abraham did not obligate God to owe them salvation. Paul in this verse is showing the Jew that God can save the Gentiles if He so chooses thereby refuting the Jew's false idea that salvation only belonged to them or only came through them. And mercy did go to the Gentiles as can be seen from Acts 10 forward. Yet it took obedience on part of the Gentile to receive God's mercy..... "David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation irrespective of their response to divine truth. Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel. Salvation was not as a consequence of an eternal decree independent of human obedience (cf. Acts 10:34-35,43; 11:14; 15:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22-23)."
Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?


3) we know that God "sheweth mercy" to mankind by sending His Son to die upon the cross for the sins of man. There was no "willing or running" on the part of man that caused God to owe man His mercy, it was purely due to God's graciousness that He sent Christ to earth thereby showing mercy to man thru Christ. Even though it was solely God's choice to extend mercy to man, there is still a required "willing" (John 7:17; Revelation 22:17) and "running" (Hebrews 12:1; 1 Corinthians 9:24-26) on the part of man in order to receive God's mercy. Because God's mercy does not unconditionally save everyone (Titus 2:11), but those that conditionally obey the will of God ( those that "willeth and runneth") are the ones that conditionally receive God's grace.

4) though Romans 9:16 gives no basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others does not mean there is no basis or that man cannot know the basis. Other verses tell us that basis always has been obedience to God's will. As far back as the OT obedience has been that basis, (Jeremiah 18:8-10; Isaiah 55:7; Proverbs 28:13). Therefore man receiving grace is not some arbitrary, mystery where grace has unconditionally been predetermined to some apart from obedience and denied to others but has been based upon man choosing to obey God's will or not.

5) John 6 refutes the Calvinistic idea of predestination therefore by extension refutes perseverance of the saints (OSAS).

 

[PinSeeker]

Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

...we can know that this verse does NOT mean man has no responsibility to obey the will of God...

Sure we can. I didn't insinuate such a thing in the least. But, just like Paul says there, it does not depend, initially speaking, on anything of man, but only on God and His mercy.

...we can know from Romans 9:16 that man did not deserve salvation nor can man earn salvation.

Yeah, again, sure. Absolutely. Actually, Paul has spend the previous eight chapters proving and expounding on that point. And now it is his intent to show that man's salvation depends entirely on God, Who, in His complete sovereignty over His creation, has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

Paul was proving to the Jew (who God cast off, see Romans 11) that God did not owe them salvation. Just being descendants of Abraham did not obligate God to owe them salvation.

Sure. But he ends up in Romans 11 talking not just about Jews but of Jews and Gentiles, and that eventually, all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

...we know that God "sheweth mercy" to mankind by sending His Son to die upon the cross for the sins of man.

Well, yes, but God's mercy to mankind is not what Paul is talking about here in Romans 9. Quite obviously, by his quote in Romans 9:15 of God's statement to Moses that "(He) will have mercy on whom (He has) mercy, and (He) will have compassion on whom (He has) compassion... ," he is talking about a mercy and compassion that He extends only to certain men and not all. And if that's not enough, Paul goes on to say, again, in Romans 9:18, even more explicitly, that "(God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

...There was no "willing or running" on the part of man that caused God to owe man His mercy, it was purely due to God's graciousness that He sent Christ to earth thereby showing mercy to man thru Christ.

Right, but again, here in Romans 9, He's talking about the mercy of His election to certain men and not others. What Paul is saying about Christ is that, again, going back to Romans 8, there is no more condemnation for sin for those who are in Christ. And coming back to Romans 9, these certain men, God's elect, are in Christ according to His particular mercy, and not according to anything he or she has willed or done.

...those that conditionally obey the will of God ( those that "willeth and runneth") are the ones that conditionally receive God's grace.

Nope. This is exactly opposite to what Paul is saying. As for obedience, it is a result of having received this particular mercy/compassion/grace of God. Again, Ezekiel quotes God Himself in chapters 11 and 36 of his prophecy:

"And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel 11:19-20)

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

...though Romans 9:16 gives no basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others does not mean there is no basis or that man cannot know the basis.

Well, yes, there is a basis... :)... and man can know the basis, at least to an extent, because we cannot fully know the mind of God (Romans 11:33), but I would posit emphatically that Paul, in the whole of Romans 9, does tell us why. It is based on God's will; I would think you agree with that. Now, what is the basis for His will? Well, everything God does is to glorify Himself. There are many passages from Scripture showing God's zeal for His own glory, that He does things for His name's sake, for the sake of His praise, for His own sake... that His glory He will not give to another. And as Paul says later in Romans 9 regarding this mercy and compassion that He gives only to some, God is the molder and we are the molded, God is the potter and we are the clay. And the potter can do with the clay whatever He wants, whether making one for honorable use or another for dishonorable use. He desires to show His wrath and make known His power, therefore enduring with much patience the one made for dishonorable use who has been prepared for destruction. And by this, He makes known the riches of His glory for the one created for honorable use and prepared beforehand for glory ~ Gentile as well as Jew (Romans 9:20-24).

Other verses tell us that basis always has been obedience to God's will.

No they don't. He promises discipline and punishment and even judgment for disobedience, though, for sure. But man's obedience is not the basis for anything God does. Man surely has the responsibility to respond... positively :)... to God's provision and grace. But it is not the basis for it.

...man receiving grace is not some arbitrary, mystery where grace has unconditionally been predetermined to some apart from obedience and denied to others but has been based upon man choosing to obey God's will or not.

This is a misstatement. Whether it's intentional or not is another question, but no matter. No one ~ Augustine, or Calvin, or any that have come after ~ insinuates in any way that obedience is optional. And no one insinuates in any way that man does not make a choice (even a free-will choice) to obey God's will. But the central matter is the heart, because it is the heart that drives the will. Again, drawing from Ezekiel 11 and 36, God must take out our hearts of stone ~ with which we are spiritually dead and will never choose to obey God's will ~ and give us a heart of flesh, and put His Spirit within us ~ so that we will then (without fail, though we will still fall short from time to time) choose to obey God's will. In this way, He causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules.

...John 6 refutes the Calvinistic idea of predestination therefore by extension refutes perseverance of the saints (OSAS).

Well, far be it from me to deprive you of your opinion, but absolutely not. It affirms both, is the basis (see what I did there?) ~ along with a great many other Biblical passages ~ for it. As for predestination and perseverance of the saints, even just one verse from John 6 should be sufficient ~ John 6:44 (bolded below), but the whole passage is worth quoting again. Jesus says:

"I am the bread of life; whoever comes to Me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day... No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Like the hymn-writer says:

Jesus! what a Friend for sinners!
Jesus! Lover of my soul;
Friends may fail me, foes assail me,
He, my Savior, makes me whole.
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Hallelujah! what a Friend!
Saving, helping, keeping, loving,
He is with me to the end.
(Jesus! What a Friend for Sinners, Rowland H. Prichard, 1830)

Grace and peace to you, Earnest!

 

[Butch5]

Oh boy, another one... :)

Yeah, you don't need to be saved more than once. :) Just once, and then kept by the power of God. Once the Father gives you to Jesus, He loses not one. This is what the Bible ~ Jesus ~ teaches:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
[John 6:37-40]​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:3-5]​

Grace and peace to you.

But, if we read on in John we find that Jesus did say that one was lost.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Jn. 17:12 KJV)

Jesus Himself that He kept them and yet one was of them was lost.

There's also a difference between Jesus losing someone and someone walking away.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sure we can. I didn't insinuate such a thing in the least. But, just like Paul says there, it does not depend, initially speaking, on anything of man, but only on God and His mercy


Yeah, again, sure. Absolutely. Actually, Paul has spend the previous eight chapters proving and expounding on that point. And now it is his intent to show that man's salvation depends entirely on God, Who, in His complete sovereignty over His creation, has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

Paul says nothing at all in Romans that receiving mercy is out of man's control whereby God chooses for men which ones will be saved or lost.

As I showed from various verses, obedience has been the basis as to those who receive mercy. The case of two kings: Pharaoh did not obey therefore did not receive mercy yet the king of Nineveh did obey and received mercy. The basis was obedience not some unconditional, random choice made by God apart from those King's obedience or lack thereof. Jeremiah 18:8-10

Sure. But he ends up in Romans 11 talking not just about Jews but of Jews and Gentiles, and that eventually, all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

The reference to the Israel that would be saved is the church, not fleshly Israel for the context clearly speaks to their being lost (ROmans 10:1-3) having been cast off by God.

Well, yes, but God's mercy to mankind is not what Paul is talking about here in Romans 9. Quite obviously, by his quote in Romans 9:15 of God's statement to Moses that "(He) will have mercy on whom (He has) mercy, and (He) will have compassion on whom (He has) compassion... ," he is talking about a mercy and compassion that He extends only to certain men and not all. And if that's not enough, Paul goes on to say, again, in Romans 9:18, even more explicitly, that "(God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

The context of Romans 9 is Paul is proving God was just and righteous in casting off His elect people the Jews and grafting in the Gentiles. God did not act unrighteous nor break any promises to the Jews in casting them off.

Right, but again, here in Romans 9, He's talking about the mercy of His election to certain men and not others. What Paul is saying about Christ is that, again, going back to Romans 8, there is no more condemnation for sin for those who are in Christ. And coming back to Romans 9, these certain men, God's elect, are in Christ according to His particular mercy, and not according to anything he or she has willed or done.

The election in Romans 9 is not about salvation but election to a task. God elected certain people (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel) to bring the Messiah into the world. Though elected for this task, the Jews still had to be obedient to God in order to be saved, yet most were not obedient (Romans 10:3) hence most were lost with only a remnant saved (Romans 11:5) that obeyed Peter in Acts 2:38.

Nope. This is exactly opposite to what Paul is saying. As for obedience, it is a result of having received this particular mercy/compassion/grace of God. Again, Ezekiel quotes God Himself in chapters 11 and 36 of his prophecy:

"And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God" (Ezekiel 11:19-20)

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27)

There is no example of men living in disobedience who received God's grace/saved BEFORE they obeyed. In the Bible, obedience PRECEDES salvation as in Romans 6:17-18 they first obeyed from the heart THEN freed from sin/justified.

God gives men a new heart and spirit in the sense God has instructed men on HOW to obtain a new heart and spirit but it is still up to man to obey those instructions.

"The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf — without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

For example, David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation irrespective of their response to divine truth.Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel." Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

Therefore those who follow those instructions GOd has given are the ones to receive a new heart and spirit...."Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 18:31

The idea that salvation is solely God, monergism is not found in the Bible. It takes both God AND man for man to be saved/have new heart and spirit. It takes God's word instructing man and man's obedience to that word THEN man can have a new heart and spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, yes, there is a basis... :)... and man can know the basis, at least to an extent, because we cannot fully know the mind of God (Romans 11:33), but I would posit emphatically that Paul, in the whole of Romans 9, does tell us why. It is based on God's will; I would think you agree with that. Now, what is the basis for His will? Well, everything God does is to glorify Himself. There are many passages from Scripture showing God's zeal for His own glory, that He does things for His name's sake, for the sake of His praise, for His own sake... that His glory He will not give to another. And as Paul says later in Romans 9 regarding this mercy and compassion that He gives only to some, God is the molder and we are the molded, God is the potter and we are the clay. And the potter can do with the clay whatever He wants, whether making one for honorable use or another for dishonorable use. He desires to show His wrath and make known His power, therefore enduring with much patience the one made for dishonorable use who has been prepared for destruction. And by this, He makes known the riches of His glory for the one created for honorable use and prepared beforehand for glory ~ Gentile as well as Jew (Romans 9:20-24).

The basis in receiving mercy is obedience, that idea is found throughout the Bible. The Jews would not obey God (2 Thessalonians 2:15-16) hence they were vessels of God's wrath. Being made vessels of honor (2 Timothy 2:21) or vessels of wrath is not a baseless, arbitrary choice made by God independent of man's obedience or lack thereof.

God used the Jews to accomplish His will, God used the Jews rebellion and rejection of Christ to being about the death of Christ upon the cross. Yet God using the Jews this way, God did not 1) violate the Jews free will, nor 2) make God obligated to save the Jews. Romans 9:20 the Jew had no right to reply against God that God used the Jew to accomplish His will yet gives the Jew no credit. If Rom 9 were about Calvinistic predestination where God UNCONDITIONALLY predestined those Jews to be lost where they had no choice in the matter, then that would be a legitimate protest the Jew could make against God.
Romans 9:21 is taken from Jeremiah 18 where free will is involved..."if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.....If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." How God/Potter forms men depends upon if man will obey God or not.

No they don't. He promises discipline and punishment and even judgment for disobedience, though, for sure. But man's obedience is not the basis for anything God does. Man surely has the responsibility to respond... positively :)... to God's provision and grace. But it is not the basis for it.

Again, Jeremiah 18:8-10 shows God already has a predetermined course of action in how He deals with man. If man obeys, then God's predetermined course of action is to show mercy. If man disobeys, then God's predetermined course of action is to not show mercy.

Note in Jonah 3, God was to destroy Nineveh in 40 days, but Nineveh OBEYED by repenting and in turn God REPENTED..."And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:10.

When it says God repented, "repented" does not mean God changed His mind but changed to follow His already established predetermined course of action (Jeremiah 18:8-10). Nineveh was disobedient, therefore God's predetermined course of action was to not show mercy/destroy the city. Nineveh repented, God's predetermined course of action then was to show mercy. Therefore what God did was in response to what Nineveh did. What God did was not capricious, not done unconditionally separate and apart from what Nineveh did in obeying by repenting. If Calvinism's predestination were true, then Jonah 3:10 and other verses speaking of God 'repenting' make God's action senseless.

This is a misstatement. Whether it's intentional or not is another question, but no matter. No one ~ Augustine, or Calvin, or any that have come after ~ insinuates in any way that obedience is optional. And no one insinuates in any way that man does not make a choice (even a free-will choice) to obey God's will. But the central matter is the heart, because it is the heart that drives the will. Again, drawing from Ezekiel 11 and 36, God must take out our hearts of stone ~ with which we are spiritually dead and will never choose to obey God's will ~ and give us a heart of flesh, and put His Spirit within us ~ so that we will then (without fail, though we will still fall short from time to time) choose to obey God's will. In this way, He causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules.

Obedience has never been option when it comes to salvation.

The Bible does not teach man is born totally depraved unable to obey God unless God first supernaturally acts upon the individual. Such an idea has:
--man being a innocent victim of sin and not a willful perpetrator of sinning
--God unjust condemning man for how man was innately born
--God being a respecter of persons in whom He saves when He is not, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35

Well, far be it from me to deprive you of your opinion, but absolutely not. It affirms both, is the basis (see what I did there?) ~ along with a great many other Biblical passages ~ for it. As for predestination and perseverance of the saints, even just one verse from John 6 should be sufficient ~ John 6:44 (bolded below), but the whole passage is worth quoting again. Jesus says:

"I am the bread of life; whoever comes to Me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day... No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Like the hymn-writer says:

Jesus! what a Friend for sinners!
Jesus! Lover of my soul;
Friends may fail me, foes assail me,
He, my Savior, makes me whole.
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Hallelujah! what a Friend!
Saving, helping, keeping, loving,
He is with me to the end.
(Jesus! What a Friend for Sinners)

Grace and peace to you, Earnest!

Again Calvinist have long read Calvinism into John 6. You can refer to my earlier post from John 6 that refutes the Calvinist position. One point I will reiterate, is the drawing is not done in any irresistible Calvinistic style apart from the word of God but the text clearly shows God draws men by His word, when men have been "taught" have "heard" and "learn". The simplicity of the text shows God draws men by His word, and upon men hearing/being taught/learning, then man of his own free will comes to Christ....God draws, men come to Christ.

 

[PinSeeker]

The basis in receiving mercy is obedience, that idea is found throughout the Bible. The Jews would not obey God (2 Thessalonians 2:15-16) hence they were vessels of God's wrath.

Well, First Thessalonians 2:15-16, right? Judgment was placed upon those who hindered the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Obedience is not in view here, but rather their having attempted to thwart God's purposes, which cannot be done (Job 42:2). And God inflicted judgment upon them.

Being made vessels of honor (2 Timothy 2:21) or vessels of wrath is not a baseless, arbitrary choice made by God independent of man's obedience or lack thereof.

Well, I surely agree that it's not "baseless" at all, or "arbitrary." But what God's basis is in making the choices He makes are... unknown to us, really, except in the sense that it is for His own glory, which is the basis for everything He does. And this is exactly what Paul says there in Romans 9, that, as I said, God is the molder and we are the molded, God is the potter and we are the clay. And the potter can do with the clay whatever He wants, whether making one for honorable use or another for dishonorable use. He desires to show His wrath and make known His power, therefore enduring with much patience the one made for dishonorable use who has been prepared for destruction. And by this, He makes known the riches of His glory for the one created for honorable use and prepared beforehand for glory ~ Gentile as well as Jew (Romans 9:20-24).

If Rom 9 were about Calvinistic predestination where God UNCONDITIONALLY predestined those Jews to be lost where they had no choice in the matter, then that would be a legitimate protest the Jew could make against God.

Romans 9 is about God's sovereignty over His creation in matters regarding salvation and who His elect are and are not. It does not say that we do not make choices regarding the salvation of God, but it does say that it depends on the will of God and whether he extends mercy/compassion to the individual (as Jacob) or not (as Esau). Regarding Jacob and Esau individually, He made this decision "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad... in order that His purpose of election might continue." As for conditions, the only condition He places on anyone is on Himself ~ His mercy, His compassion. As Paul says to the Ephesians:

"...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... In (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14)

And then:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)

How anyone can fail to conclude that man is responsible in any way for being granted salvation, or that receiving God's salvific grace or keeping it is unconditional on anything man may or may not do, is just... unfathomable. These conclusions are unavoidable and irrefutable. Thanks be to our great God.

How God/Potter forms men depends upon if man will obey God or not.

No, absolutely not. God's blessing is dependent on their obedience, but not how God makes/forms them. Even there in Jeremiah 18, He says, "...if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it..." and "...if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it." He is talking about either withholding judgment or withholding blessing. Paul's context is different in that he's talking about individuals, but bringing in the fact ~ from Jeremiah 18 ~ that God is the potter and we are the clay. and making them His (creating them for honorable use) or not.

Again, Jeremiah 18:8-10 shows God already has a predetermined course of action in how He deals with man. If man obeys, then God's predetermined course of action is to show mercy. If man disobeys, then God's predetermined course of action is to not show mercy.

Well, again, to bless ~ and show mercy in that way ~ or not to bless and in fact place under judgment ~ and thus withhold His mercy. Paul's context in Romans 9 is not about the nation of Israel but about individuals and their creation with regard to whether they will be members of His elect and thus receive His mercy or not.

Note in Jonah 3, God was to destroy Nineveh in 40 days, but Nineveh OBEYED by repenting and in turn God REPENTED..."And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:10.

Right, He relented from inflicting judgment upon Ninevah. But You might read a couple of books later about what ultimately happened to Ninevah and it's inhabitants... Nahum is pretty graphic. :) But again, blessing and judgment.

Obedience has never been option when it comes to salvation.

I agree, but salvation is not dependent on obedience. Thank God for that, because there would be no one saved. :) Obedience is a result of salvation being given and our hearts being changed from stone to flesh.

The Bible does not teach man is born totally depraved unable to obey God unless God first supernaturally acts upon the individual.

It absolutely does. We are naturally dead in sin from our birth, even from our conception. We must be made alive, born again of the Spirit, otherwise we cannot see the kingdom of God.

Such an idea has:
--man being a innocent victim of sin and not a willful perpetrator of sinning
--God unjust condemning man for how man was innately born

No to both of these; we are guilty because we have the same sinful nature that Adam, the federal head of the human race, acquired in Genesis 3. We are not guilty, per se, of his particular sin, but we are conceived/born in sin (Eve, who fell from grace with Adam, was the mother of all the living; Genesis 3:20), just as David said he was in Psalm 51:5.

Such an idea has... --God being a respecter of persons in whom He saves when He is not, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35

I'm... really not even sure what you mean by this; it seems like a sentence fragment of sorts. But yeah, no partiality... a respecter of all, if you want to put it that way. In Acts 10:34-35, we clearly see that God is not partial to Jews over Gentiles. All people are eligible to be saved ~ "everyone who believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name." God's heart is that all would be saved. There is no basis for saying Calvinists believe God is partial and a "disrespecter" of anyone. But still, God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion.

Again Calvinists have long read Calvinism into John 6.

What Calvin taught (as opposed to Arminius) is all throughout the Bible.

You can refer to my earlier post from John 6 that refutes the Calvinist position...

And you can refer to my posts that refute your refutation. :)

One point I will reiterate, is the drawing is not done in any irresistible Calvinistic style apart from the word of God but the text clearly shows God draws men by His word, when men have been "taught" have "heard" and "learn".

Well, right, they will be compelled, and of their own free will, because of their heart having been changed from stone to flesh, having been brought from death to life, having been born again, which is a work of God by His Holy Spirit. And then, ~ yes ~ upon men hearing/being taught/learning, then man of his own free will comes to Christ... God draws, men come to Christ.
The first step is made by God, and man inevitably responds positively. Sure. You make my point here, really, and frankly, refute your own.

 

[PinSeeker]

But, if we read on in John we find that Jesus did say that one was lost... Jesus Himself that He kept them and yet one was of them was lost.

Right, but to think that God gave that one to Jesus and Jesus then subsequently lost him is... a terrible misunderstanding.

There's also a difference between Jesus losing someone and someone walking away.

Jesus loses nothing given to Him by the Father. As for someone walking away, these are lost before, and then it becomes evident, upon their walking away, that they are lost. As John says:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:18-19)

Grace and peace to you, Butch.

 

[PinSeeker]

Paul says nothing at all in Romans that receiving mercy is out of man's control whereby God chooses for men which ones will be saved or lost.

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:14-18)

"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved... For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (excerpts from Romans 11)

It cannot be clearer.

As I showed from various verses, obedience has been the basis as to those who receive mercy.

As I showed, what you think you showed, you did not. See above.

The election in Romans 9 is not about salvation but election to a task. God elected certain people (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel) to bring the Messiah into the world.

Absolutely not. God's whole purpose of election, expounded upon from Romans 9 through Romans 11, is to lay out how all Israel, Jew and Gentile, will be saved. This is how Paul sums up the mystery of Israel's salvation (mystery to us, not to God):

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26)

Though elected for this task...

Yeah no. See above.

In the Bible, obedience PRECEDES salvation as in Romans 6:17-18 they first obeyed from the heart THEN freed from sin/justified.

Ah! I don't really disagree, but whey did they first obey from the heart, Earnest? Why? It's because, as Ezekiel puts it, God has given them a new heart, and a new spirit He has put within them. He has removed the heart of stone from their flesh and given them a heart of flesh. And He has put His Spirit within them, and caused them to walk in His statutes and to be careful to obey His rules.

God gives men a new heart and spirit in the sense God has instructed men on HOW to obtain a new heart and spirit but it is still up to man to obey those instructions... It takes both God AND man for man to be saved/have new heart and spirit. It takes God's word instructing man and man's obedience to that word THEN man can have a new heart and spirit.

LOL! Man cannot give himself a new heart. Or give himself new birth, thereby somehow making himself alive in the Spirit. My goodness. No, salvation is of the Lord.

The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf ~ without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

I'm not even sure what this means... :) But our election has to be unconditional on us, because otherwise noone would be elected, and no one would be saved, and all would be on Jesus's left at the Judgment and therefore consigned to... you-know-where. :)

The idea that salvation is solely God, monergism is not found in the Bible.

The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. The Apostle Paul affirmed this when he wrote, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone. Again, thanks be to God. To Him alone be the glory.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Oh boy, another one... :)

Yeah, you don't need to be saved more than once. :) Just once, and then kept by the power of God. Once the Father gives you to Jesus, He loses not one. This is what the Bible ~ Jesus ~ teaches:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
[John 6:37-40]​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:3-5]​

Grace and peace to you.

People need to remember what it is God is doing. The "sifting according to works" leaves none alive to commune with God, so God made salvation by faith so that any may respond. God does not then turn back to the "sifting according to works" for those who are His children, as if they become His children by faith, then must remain His children by works.

Galatians 3:2-3 KJV
2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Much love!

 

[marks]

See, Jesus is not describing a 'works earn salvation' gospel in the above passage. He's explaining how the validity and genuiness of one's faith will be measured by the deeds it produces - deeds that prove one's faith in and love for Jesus.

That doesn't seem to me to do justice to what is written. It seems to me this is clearly a judgment of works. Aren't you interpreting according to a presupposition, "such a thing isn't possible"? According to the passage, those with the required works are received, and those without are not. Isn't that how it reads?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That doesn't seem to me to do justice to what is written. It seems to me this is clearly a judgment of works.

Or rather a judgment BY works.

Love for Jesus is measured by what it does for Jesus. Like the sinful woman (Mary?) who Jesus said showed she was forgiven by what she did for him - Luke 7:47.

According to the passage, those with the required works are received, and those without are not. Isn't that how it reads?

That is exactly how it reads. Love for Christ expressed in love for others is the measuring rod of faith that we will all be judged by. So, knowing that, we can look at our own life and use that measuring rod to see if we are really born again and ready to face Christ in judgment. If we see that we do not have this evidence of being born again (love for God expressed in love for others) we can then seek to be born again.

Aren't you interpreting according to a presupposition, "such a thing isn't possible"?

The presupposition that we read the passage with is the rest of the counsel of God's word that shows us that salvation is not earned by doing good works. Therefore, it's impossible that Jesus is describing how people will earn being rescued from damnation by doing good works. That would contradict other parts of scripture. So we can instantly rule that interpretation out.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God made salvation by faith so that any may respond. God does not then turn back to the "sifting according to works"

You're right, he doesn't. Salvation is by faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ from start to finish. But that faith is "faith, expressed through love" (Galatians 5:6), not faith that is "alone", having no works (James 2:14-24). The faith that saves all by itself is the faith that works and is not alone. That's why Jesus can and will judge the world on the basis of our works. Righteous works of love signify saving faith in a person. The absence of righteous works of love signify the absence of saving faith in a person. This is how we make sure we have God's calling and election in our lives and are ready to meet him at the judgment, and why we are exhorted to be diligent to have these works. As you know, lot's of people will claim with their mouths at the judgment that they did things for Jesus claiming they know him. But their lawless lives will testify that Jesus does not know them, and they will be lost.

 

[marks]

The presupposition that we read the passage with is the rest of the counsel of God's word that shows us that salvation is not earned by doing good works. Therefore, it's impossible that Jesus is describing how people will earn being rescued from damnation by doing good works. That would contradict other parts of scripture. So we can instantly rule that interpretation out.

You realize, I'm certain, that the method and means that God provided by which we are justified by Him has changed over time, yes? Before under Law, now through grace and faith, how you you certain this passage doesn't mean what it says?

God will be testing the world, which will be trying to destroy His chosen nation. Those who do not help the Jews are sent away to punishment, those who do are allowed into the kingdom. They are gathered, then separated according to their works. Those with the right works are declared righteous.

Exactly what part of Scripture will this contradict? There are in fact parallel passages such as Joel 3, which describes both the gathering of Israel in restoration, and the gathering of the gentiles in judgment, and in relation to what they did regarding Israel.

I wouldn't be so quick to "instantly rule out" the plain reading of a part of Scripture. Myself, I want to have some specific part of the Bible telling me I shouldn't read it that way, and also telling me how I should read it. This part seems clearly written, and in agreement with other prophets.

Much love!