Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

[ewq1938]

Amen, there is also this


Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

How can we be kept from the hour of trial. if we go through it??

Sorts of contradicts itself.

Not if you are well versed in all of scripture:


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.


2. The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.


Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ refused his own hour of temptations from satan. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What the believers in a rapture to heaven should carefully consider is: their belief is rejected by very many good and faithful Christians. It looks to me that about half do and half don't, but of course many actually don't hold to either side, they just say: Your will be done, Lord.


Statements like this demonstrate a serious lack of understanding about how the Lord promises protection for all who: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Statements like this demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of the word. and how one will translate the word to fit his belief system and not interpret the word.

The hour of trial that will effect the whole world is just one thing in scripture.

What it is not is tribulation which effects every induvidually daily as we walk our life. That is not an "hour) or period of testing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not if you are well versed in all of scripture:


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.


2. The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.


Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ refused his own hour of temptations from satan. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

sorry bro. Again, just like the previous poster. The hour of trial is an event that takes place in the last days, Called the time of Jacobs trouble, the time of Great tribulation, the time of testing.

You can look at the 7 churches and see the history of the church as told in each church successively. From the first church being in the time of Christ. to the last church being the church at the end of the AGE.

You can talk about tribulation and trouble and persecution all you want. That is not the context of the final church, the context is the time of great distress the world will suffer..

 

[ewq1938]

sorry bro. Again, just like the previous poster. The hour of trial is an event that takes place in the last days, Called the time of Jacobs trouble, the time of Great tribulation, the time of testing.

You can look at the 7 churches and see the history of the church as told in each church successively. From the first church being in the time of Christ. to the last church being the church at the end of the AGE.

You can talk about tribulation and trouble and persecution all you want. That is not the context of the final church, the context is the time of great distress the world will suffer..

"keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ refused his own hour of temptations from satan. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no barn or wheat in Rev 6. Your verse talked about some people being killed in the Tribulation.

Whatever it is, it would need to relate to the thread somehow.

The wheat and tares are people during the GT. The angels who come at the Second Coming gather this harvest during the tribulation. Did you not read Matthew 13?

"The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Firstfruits of the 1,000 year kingdom. These righteous are not the church. They are the wheat gathered during the Thunders part of the GT. This is after the Second Coming, since Jesus brings the angels with Him, and Jesus sows the seeds after the Second Coming.

So no 144,000 witnesses in the Tribulation according to you.


However, we see that this 144,000 are BEFORE the ten kings and Antichrist are ruling. That is not after the tribulation! These kings destroy Babylon.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Of course the 144k are there during the Trumpets and Thunders. They were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. They are on earth protected by the seal of God.

The church was removed at the 6th Seal. The 144k are sealed after the 6th Seal to replace the church. These firstfruits are disciples just like the original 12 disciples. The original 12 went every where with Jesus between the OT and the NT. They were the firstfruits of the Gentile church harvest. The 144k are the firstfruits of the 1,000 year Kingdom of Jesus.

See, here is the verse from Rev 7 that comes after the 144,000

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

After Babylon falls we still see the beast in power.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

After Babylon is destroyed the merchants are still trading, buying and selling.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 7? Revelation 17 and 18 is about the temporary government of Satan's 42 months. This last hold out of Adam's flesh and blood is destroyed at Armageddon. The final harvest ends at the 7th Trumpet. The GT is the final harvest. The 42 months of this symbolic Babylon starts after the 7th Trumpet. It only starts out if there is at least 1 who will be beheaded to avoid receiving the mark of the beast. There may be more, but not less than 1. The mark is handed out after the final harvest. Even after the wheat and tares are gathered, there is still a remnant of this Babylonian government left. If there is no one beheaded, all these people go into the winepress, and then the 7th Trumpet stops. There is no 42 months leading to Armageddon. The only reason for those 42 months are the gleanings left after a harvest. Those beheaded are the gleanings. No gleanings, no beheadings, and certainly no 42 months.

The 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium begins. Daniel's 70 weeks come to and end. Those 6 promises rule the next 1,000 years. No sin, no Satan, no sin nature, and no death and decay because of sin. Isaiah 65. People will live as trees. They will build a house and never leave that house. They will keep having offspring, and their offspring will build houses and never leave those houses. People will multiply for 1,000 years. People think there is overpopulation now. That is with death and dying. The Millennium will have none of that hindering a population explosion. There will be millions of sheep and wheat from the final harvest. There will be the 144k. The church will watch from Paradise while the groom does His Day job for one Day, called the Lord's Day. Then comes the end when Jesus the Prince hands the kingdom back to God.

The Tribulation is not about Satan. The tribulation is about ending Adam's flesh and blood after the 6,000 years placed on his offspring as punishment for his disobedience. The disobedience that brought sin into the world. It is the time of greatest trouble because all must die, one way or the other. Jesus is already on earth for this final harvest, because He came and brought the angels with Him. John points this out with symbolic language repeating Jesus from Matthew 24:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

"shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"

Many claim it is after the GT. It is not. It is after general tribulation of those days. Matthew 13 claims Jesus and the angels are already on the earth. Matthew 25 claims the throne and angels are already on the earth when the sheep are brought before Jesus in Jerusalem. This wheat and sheep cannot be the church. The church left to meet in the air. Jesus personally sows the seed that becomes the wheat. Jesus has His own harvest after the Second Coming. Matthew 13:37

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;"

John does not mention just one single Trumpet, even if there is one for the church at the Second Coming. John mentions a set of Trumpets also the calling out of the sheep and goats. That deals directly with Israel. The Seals deal directly with the church and the tribulation leading up to the 6th Seal.

 

[dad]

The wheat and tares are people during the GT.

So if the Rapture was before the tribulation, it woulld not apply.

Firstfruits of the 1,000 year kingdom. These righteous are not the church.

Why would they be if the church was raptured long before this?

They are the wheat gathered during the Thunders part of the GT. This is after the Second Coming, since Jesus brings the angels with Him, and Jesus sows the seeds after the Second Coming.

Sows seed after He comes? If the harvest is gathered what is this business of sowing after the harvest?

Of course the 144k are there during the Trumpets and Thunders. They were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. They are on earth protected by the seal of God.

I assume the 144,000 are there the whole 7 years.

The church was removed at the 6th Seal.

Others say the sixth seal is the return of Jesus. The Rapture is when we are gathered. That would be many years before the return of Jesus to earth. It seems that all your ideas centre around there being no Rapture (as in believers saved from the wrath before the wrath starts)

The 144k are sealed after the 6th Seal to replace the church.

Whenever they are sealed it has to be to protect them in the tribulation, no?

These firstfruits are disciples just like the original 12 disciples. The original 12 went every where with Jesus between the OT and the NT. They were the firstfruits of the Gentile church harvest. The 144k are the firstfruits of the 1,000 year Kingdom of Jesus.

There are almost certainly hundreds of millions of saved in that Tribulation. The Jews are a minority of the saved. Perhaps because Jews are to live on earth in the 1000 years in Israel, you are confused?

Revelation 7? Revelation 17 and 18 is about the temporary government of Satan's 42 months.

Never heard that one. Obviously it is not in the bible. The rule of the beast spans the seven years.

This last hold out of Adam's flesh and blood is destroyed at Armageddon.

There is no such thing as some last man standing holdout. Job said he would in his flesh see God. Jesus was raised from the dead and was flesh and bone and spirit. We will be as He is. Our bodies will be physical and spiritual also. Jesus ded to save the children of Adam! They ain't going anywhere ever.

The final harvest ends at the 7th Trumpet. The GT is the final harvest.

So?

The 42 months of this symbolic Babylon starts after the 7th Trumpet.

Babylon is destroyed before Jesus returns. In fact, the powerful corrupt nation of that end period that embodies the final manifestation of Babylon is called Mystery Babylon the Great. I am not sure but it seems that could be destroyed by fire some time in the tribulation, while Babylon itself may be destroyed in the very end. Here is one reason I am wondering about that

Revelation 17:16
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Revelation 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Ok, so here we see that the kings that the AntiChrist uses to rule with him hate this powerful nation that trades and makes other nations rich, help destroy it. They will not help God in the very end destroy Babylon that great city that has ruled through many ages. So it seems to me we very well could be looking at two Babylons here. Mystery Babylon, a nation that corrupts the earth, that gets destroyed by these kings in the seven years somewhere, and then the final destruction of Babylon by Jesus when He returns!? After all, when Jesus returns, it is sudden, as will be the destruction of Babylon. That cannot be when the ten kings destroy Mystery Babylon, since that seems to be the event that puts them into power! Maybe someone has some clarification on this issue?

It only starts out if there is at least 1 who will be beheaded to avoid receiving the mark of the beast. There may be more, but not less than 1.

That does not make sense. I assume there will be millions.

The mark is handed out after the final harvest.

False. The mark of the beast is in the tribulation.

Even after the wheat and tares are gathered, there is still a remnant of this Babylonian government left.

That was what I tried to get at. Long after Mystery Babylon is burned by the ten kings, there is still a remnant of that spiritual Babylon that has ruled mankind.

If there is no one beheaded, all these people go into the winepress, and then the 7th Trumpet stops.

The beheadings are in the seven years obviously.

There is no 42 months leading to Armageddon.

Since that battle is right when He returns, we do know about when it will happen.

The only reason for those 42 months are the gleanings left after a harvest.

That is vacuous speculation that directly opposes Scripture.

The 7th Trumpet stops, the Millennium begins. Daniel's 70 weeks come to and end. Those 6 promises rule the next 1,000 years.

Actually Jesus and us rule.

No sin, no Satan, no sin nature, and no death and decay because of sin.

While people will live many centuries we cannot say there is no death in the 1000 years yet.

The tribulation is about ending Adam's flesh and blood after the 6,000 years placed on his offspring as punishment for his disobedience.

If Jesus and us have eternal bodies that are flesh and spirit, then Adam's offspring are not going anywhere ever (at least the saved ones)

The disobedience that brought sin into the world. It is the time of greatest trouble because all must die, one way or the other.

Says who? There are nations we rule over. They are not zombies!

Many claim it is after the GT. It is not. It is after general tribulation of those days.

Not sure who gave you the idea you should teach when you are deeply confused. I would look into that and maybe you can actually start to learn.

The Seals deal directly with the church and the tribulation leading up to the 6th Seal.

The four horsemen actually are not 'dealing' with the church.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ refused his own hour of temptations from satan. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

Your wrong

Eve one is promised temptation. Everyone is promised trial. NO ONE is promised that they will have a life free of tribulation or trial or temptation. In fact, a child of God is promised they will have MORE..

This is not just trial, tribulation or temptation. THIS IS THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION

This is not trial tribulation or temptation on induviduals, THE IS TEMPTATION WHICH IS BROUGHT ON THE WHOLE WORLD

God did not promise to try the world in this age, In fact, he never said he would try the earth in any age. he only said he would do it at one time period. At one event on earth. At one “hour” and that hour is called the time of Jacobs trouble (where Israel will be tested) the time of Great tribulation. Where the whole world will be tested.

It makes no sense for God to say he will keep us from the hour of trial. Then to allow us to go through it.

 

[Timtofly]

I have already explained that. Jesus did not leave heaven when he opened the 6th seal. That proves the events of the 6th seal didn't happen when opened.

John saw the past like he did with the seals and in Revelation 12 when Jesus was born. He saw things that happened in the present, and he saw many things of the future.

Revelation 5:3

"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

So the Seals were opened before creation. That was the only time there were no humans any where.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, here is where you need your big boy logic pants on. When you see the 144,000 that are sealed in Rev 7, that means they are sealed with the spirit of God and are Christians. That sealing of the 144,000 has to occur earlier in the seals, before Christ returns at the 6th seal. How do we know that?

They follow Jesus as Prince. They are disciples of the Prince.

In the first century the original disciples followed the Messiah, so they were called Christians. Christ is the Greek word for the Hebrew word Messiah. Both mean the "anointed one".

Jesus first came as Messiah. At the Second Coming Jesus will come as Prince. The 144k are not the OT church. They are not the NT church. They are the 1,000 year, iron rod rule, church. They follow the Prince around during the final harvest, ie the GT. The church leaves at the 6th Seal. The 144k are sealed after the 6th Seal. God chooses them via an angel. They do not choose God. Andrew did bring Peter to see Christ. But it was Christ who chose the 12 disciples. They chose to follow Him, only after God hand picked them, except Judas who was chosen to betray Jesus.

This time around the 144k will remain faithful. The Seal of God removed them from Adam's corruptible dead flesh. That is the symbolism of them being protected during the Trumpets and Thunders. They no longer had sin natures, but incorruptible permanent physical bodies. They were changed on earth, like the church was changed in the air to meet the Lord at the 6th Seal. They are redeemed, but still on the earth for the final harvest. That is why they are mentioned in Revelation 7. The church is in Paradise, glorified, covered by the second half of Revelation 7.

Wow. That's simple. That means that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. That means that the tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same timeframe.

The tribulation of those days is just your basic general tribulation. That tribulation is mentioned in Matthew 24:4-12

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

This is the tribulation of those days. The first 4 Seals is just the tribulation of those days.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the time of unprecedented trouble and for Jacob. This is Jesus on earth as Prince to finish the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27. Jesus called the Lamb in Revelation 6 comes at the 6th Seal. Jesus as Prince sets up His glorious throne per Matthew 25:31. The Trumpets are the calling of Israel to assembly. Israel is judged and separated the sheep from the goats. The sheep are the Nation of Israel during the Millennial Kingdom. The goats are reprobate Israel sent to Death, ie eternal damnation with no chance of escape. They end up in the LOF.

Once the 7th Seal is opened, there is no more grace nor salvation by faith. During the 42 months the alter call is the guillotine. It is salvation by beheading. That is the only way to remain in the Lamb's book of life. The Lamb's book of life is what is opened when the 7 Seals are removed. The goats will be the first humans to be removed from the Lamb's book of life. There is no returning to the Lamb's book of life.

Once removed it will be as if God never knew you.

 

[The Light]

Jesus first came as Messiah. At the Second Coming Jesus will come as Prince. The 144k are not the OT church. They are not the NT church. They are the 1,000 year, iron rod rule, church.

I'll never understand the hoops that everyone jumps through for nothing. All it does is get you offtrack. We don't need to figure out who 144,000 are, we already know that. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel and they are the first fruits of the second harvest when God regrafts the Jews back onto the Olive tree.

The church leaves at the 6th Seal.

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to the people of Daniel.

The 144k are sealed after the 6th Seal.

I have already shown, without any doubt, without having to make anything up, that the 144,000 are sealed earlier in the seals. We can prove that because we can see that the 144,000 have been redeemed FROM THE EARTH, prior to the great tribulation that we see in Rev 14:13. Since the 144,000 are sealed before they are redeemed from the earth and we can see that the 5th seal is the great tribulation, big boy logic pants should tell you that the 144,000 HAVE TO BE SEALED BEFORE THE 5TH SEAL.

This time around the 144k will remain faithful. The Seal of God removed them from Adam's corruptible dead flesh. That is the symbolism of them being protected during the Trumpets and Thunders. They no longer had sin natures, but incorruptible permanent physical bodies. They were changed on earth, like the church was changed in the air to meet the Lord at the 6th Seal. They are redeemed, but still on the earth for the final harvest. That is why they are mentioned in Revelation 7. The church is in Paradise, glorified, covered by the second half of Revelation 7.

Why would you say that the 144,000 are redeemed but are still on earth? The hardest thing for me personally is trying figure out WHY people make all this stuff up. Things like this are exactly the reason why Gods people do not understand Revelation.

We don't need to get off track and figure what happens to the 144,000. We already know.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the great tribulation as shown in Rev 14. That means that they are redeemed from the earth before the 5th seal. Which means that the 144,000 are sealed before the 6th seal. That also means since the first fruits of the harvest are from the 12 tribes, the harvest at the 6th seal will be of the 12 tribes.

That of course is another proof of the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

 

[Timtofly]

Others say the sixth seal is the return of Jesus. The Rapture is when we are gathered. That would be many years before the return of Jesus to earth. It seems that all your ideas centre around there being no Rapture (as in believers saved from the wrath before the wrath starts)

Paul says the rapture and Second Coming happen at the same time. Only modern theology has separated them. The rapture and Second Coming is the 6th Seal, period.

Jesus is on earth with the angels, and that happens at the Second Coming. That is what Jesus points out in Matthew 13, 24, and 25. That is what John points out in the 6th Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

I'll never understand the hoops that everyone jumps through for nothing. All it does is get you offtrack. We don't need to figure out who 144,000 are, we already know that. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel and they are the first fruits of the second harvest when God regrafts the Jews back onto the Olive tree.
The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to the people of Daniel.

I have already shown, without any doubt, without having to make anything up, that the 144,000 are sealed earlier in the seals. We can prove that because we can see that the 144,000 have been redeemed FROM THE EARTH, prior to the great tribulation that we see in Rev 14:13. Since the 144,000 are sealed before they are redeemed from the earth and we can see that the 5th seal is the great tribulation, big boy logic pants should tell you that the 144,000 HAVE TO BE SEALED BEFORE THE 5TH SEAL.



Why would you say that the 144,000 are redeemed but are still on earth? The hardest thing for me personally is trying figure out WHY people make all this stuff up. Things like this are exactly the reason why Gods people do not understand Revelation.

We don't need to get off track and figure what happens to the 144,000. We already know.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the great tribulation as shown in Rev 14. That means that they are redeemed from the earth before the 5th seal. Which means that the 144,000 are sealed before the 6th seal. That also means since the first fruits of the harvest are from the 12 tribes, the harvest at the 6th seal will be of the 12 tribes.

That of course is another proof of the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

You all are confused and contradict clear Scripture from Jesus' own teachings.

Jesus is coming at the 6th Seal with the angels. The church is removed. The GT is the sounding of the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus, the 144k, and the angels are on the earth, because that is the final harvest.

You all are decieved that Revelation is just a series of the same repeated event. John saw the Revelation unfold and each set of sevens is a totally different event. I am not confused by human theology. Human understanding is rather full of pride some times. God's Word is not that difficult nor emotional.

 

[dad]

Paul says the rapture and Second Coming happen at the same time.

Where did he say that?

Jesus is on earth with the angels, and that happens at the Second Coming. That is what Jesus points out in Matthew 13, 24, and 25. That is what John points out in the 6th Seal.[/QUOTE]
In Matt 13 I see a lot of things comparing what heaven is like for us. In Matt 24 there are a lot of things spoken about. I don't recall a verse there about Jesus on earth with angels, unless you are talking about His return to earth.

 

[The Light]

You all are confused and contradict clear Scripture from Jesus' own teachings.

Jesus clear teachings is that the 144,000 are of the 12 tribes and they are the first fruits of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

Jesus is coming at the 6th Seal with the angels.

Exactly. He remains in the clouds.

The church is removed.

The Church will be removed BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel and are about the people of Daniel.

The GT is the sounding of the Trumpets and Thunders.

Rev 10
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

There is no scripture that supports that the Great Tribulation is in the seven thunders.
You will find the Great Tribulation at the 5th seal.
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You will also find the Great Tribulation in Rev 14 just before Jesus comes with His angels.
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Jesus, the 144k, and the angels are on the earth, because that is the final harvest.

This is something that you have made up, because you don't accept the written Word of God. Were you unable to believe what is written, that the 144,000 are REEDEMED FROM THE EARTH. They are before the throne which is in heaven.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Do you just look past what is written and make up what you want? Have you ever thought about accepting what is written and letting that determine what you believe? There is proof of the scripture that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne. I'm sorry if you can't fit that into your endtime timeline.

You all are decieved that Revelation is just a series of the same repeated event.

Why don't you just accept what is written. When the word says there will be 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe. That's what it mean. When it says they are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne in heaven, that's what it means.

John saw the Revelation unfold and each set of sevens is a totally different event. I am not confused by human theology. Human understanding is rather full of pride some times. God's Word is not that difficult nor emotional.

The word of God is not difficult for you, because you make up anything you want to make things fit. There is no end to what people come up with.
Let me try: The 144,000 is not 12,000 from each tribe as is written. It is really 144,000 Adams, meaning first. These 144,000 Adams form the corporate manchild of the Adomic bomb which explodes and causes wormwood when the third trumpet is blown.

That's the kind of stuff I read on here. Try believing what is written.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 5:3

"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

So the Seals were opened before creation. That was the only time there were no humans any where.

It doesn't say there were no humans anywhere. It says there were no humans that were able to open the book.

 

[Timtofly]

Where did he say that?
In Matt 13 I see a lot of things comparing what heaven is like for us. In Matt 24 there are a lot of things spoken about. I don't recall a verse there about Jesus on earth with angels, unless you are talking about His return to earth.

Where does Paul talk about the Second Coming. Yes, Jesus is quoted saying both He and the angels come to earth.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't say there were no humans anywhere. It says there were no humans that were able to open the book.

Exactly no man on earth, no man under the earth (sheol), and no man in heaven. So the only time that was true was before creation.

You cannot just claim heaven. To be consistent you also have to include earth and sheol as well, that no human could be found.

 

[ewq1938]

Exactly no man on earth, no man under the earth (sheol), and no man in heaven.

That is not what it says.

 

[Timtofly]

The 144,000 are REEDEMED FROM THE EARTH. They are before the throne which is in heaven.
Rev 14

They were on heaven or more precisely Mt. Zion after the 7th Trumpet started to sound. They were on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet sounds after the 7 Thunders.

The 144k were on Mt. Zion because of Revelation 13:5-7

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The 144k are waiting on Mt. Zion until the 42 months are over to return at the battle of Armageddon.

The only two humans witnessing during the 42 months are the 2 witnesses. The 144k were overcome, and sent to Mt. Zion.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't say there were no humans anywhere. It says there were no humans that were able to open the book.

You are the one saying Jesus had to be in heaven because no humans were there:

I have already explained that. Jesus did not leave heaven when he opened the 6th seal. That proves the events of the 6th seal didn't happen when opened.

Of course humans are there. None of them were worthy. It was not because heaven was empty.

The church has been there since the Cross. At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus comes to earth, while the church remains in Paradise. You pointed out Paradise was empty. It was not. Believe it or not, but humans can be silent for hours, and not make any noises.