a non-eschatological Coming?

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Randy Kluth

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Wrong Randy. If Jesus wished to use generation in a specific time frame Aiaon would have been the more used word.

I don't agree, and you don't sound like you're knowledgeable about the Greek--I'm not either. However, I only have to ask my brother. I need not trouble him--your argument is illogical. Reference to a group of people do not have to have a time stamp attached to them in order to identify them in a particular time frame--it is the context that does it.

In English it would be like saying *this* generation, referring to right now. The word "this" would identify how I'm using the word "generation," which otherwise could refer to many other things.

If you really wish to look at it, you would have to know some Greek and see how the word "generation" is used. I think you will find that it does not have to apply to a "race of people." Otherwise, Jesus would've been condemning an entire race of people to Hell for all time! Jesus condemned his generation to damnation, and indicated by the context that he was referring to those Jews in his time who were rejecting him permanently.

If you understood this properly, you would agree with me, that Jesus was identifying his own generation as the ones subject to the coming judgment, the fall of the temple. It was that particular generation that would lose their temple, and thus lose Judaism. And indeed, that is where Judaism ceased from supporting a covenant relationship between God and Israel.
 

Truth7t7

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You don't ever seem to be able to actually debate a subject? Your way of discussing differences is simply to assert your beliefs, which proves nothing at all. If you never take seriously another point of view, how are you ever going to be corrected on anything you may be wrong about?

The Great Tribulation I cited was in Luke 21, and it clearly was associated with the fall of the temple and with an entire age of Jewish Punishment, ending at the Coming of the Lord. You should at least have acknowledged this.

Instead, you assert something about Matt 24, which I believe to be the same Discourse as the one in Luke 21. You may dispute that, but that's an entirely different argument. I was stating that the Great Tribulation in *Luke 21* was about the fall of the temple, and continuing. Is your silence on that particular issue confirmation from you that I'm right? I'm going to assume that's so, since you failed to respond to it.
I Fully Understand Your Claim, And Matthew 24:15 nor Matthew 24:21 Started in 70AD as claimed

The AOD Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 25:21 are future events unfulfilled

Your claim the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled over centuries in the church age 1900 years and counting, this is a big smile to say the least!

Daniel's Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 is a future event and hasn't taken place anytime in history

When this Abomination takes place, the great tribulation starts, and the human man that starts it, will be present on earth to witness the second coming and his final judgement in destruction by the Lord at the "Consummation" (The End)

To claim "The Great Tribulation" represents history over the past 1900 years and counting isnt found to be supported by scripture

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation


1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

Marty fox

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You are close, but Paul claims the Second Coming happens at the rapture, but that is all; and the Second Coming is not at John's 7th Trumpet. You are going to have to show that in Revelation.

You are correct in that great tribulation, the entire last 1992 years has been while the church has been spreading the Gospel. The last 1992 years has produced the only martyrs found in the book of Revelation. The souls under the alter have come out of this great tribulation. Many of those in Revelation 7:9-17 were martyred over the last 1992 years, but not all the redeemed have been martyred, even though many have also suffered under persecution and troubled times. Sometimes the church has thrived and been blessed. But all the church is already gathered and before that heavenly throne between the 6th and 7th Seal being opened. No more from earth will join that number, after the 7th Seal is opened.

Christ as Prince is already on earth and sitting on that glorious throne in Jerusalem, at that point. The redeemed from that point on are the firstfruits of the 1,000 year reign on earth. These souls are harvested by the angels themselves and start life in the Millennium after the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Paul has the archangel with the Trump of God. That may be the Trumpet that makes the last sounding. But it is brought to earth by that archangel at the Second Coming, even before the 7th Seal is opened. There are 6 other Trumpets and 7 Thunders that have to sound before that final role call of who will remain and who will be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Paul did not include Zechariah 14 in his eschatological statement. Nor could Paul be referring to John's words from the book of Revelation. Revelation was not even written yet.

Paul was writing from the perspective of resurrection and the change from this sin nature flesh, to a flesh without sin. The change from the corruptible to the incorruptible. That was Paul's perspective in both Corinthians and Thessalonians. Paul was not explaining the total ramifications of the Second Coming. So readers should not interpret Zechariah 14 and the book of Revelation by the limitations of Paul's eschatological viewpoint. Even Jesus gave more detail in the OD, than Paul mentioned. Paul was drawing from what was known in the OD. Paul knew that Christ as Prince was coming to earth at a future point in time. Paul attached a resurrection that was physical and a change that was physical that would happen at the Second Coming. That is all Paul did. And people have run with Paul's writings using many private interpretations that Paul never even intended.

If you read Titus 2:13 Paul mentioned God would also appear in all His glory as well as Jesus Christ. Another fact that Paul knew, but left out of the letters to the Corinthians and Thessolinians.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

When the Second Coming happens all spiritual blindness will be removed. Those on earth will see creation as it actually appears and not "through a glass darkly".

This will show that the rapture is at the second coming at the last trumpet the seventh trumpet on the judgement day when the dead are raised.

What happens at the second coming?

Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus comes with His angels and judges and rewards

Jesus comes at the last trumpet and judges and rewards

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”


55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”


Revelation 11:15-18
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
 

Truth7t7

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This will show that the rapture is at the second coming at the last trumpet the seventh trumpet on the judgement day when the dead are raised.

What happens at the second coming?

Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus comes with His angels and judges and rewards

Jesus comes at the last trumpet and judges and rewards

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”


55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”


Revelation 11:15-18
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Matthew 24:29-30 below "Literally" takes place at the second coming, something that preterist deny will "Literally" is seen

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

Timtofly

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This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
The final week is the earthly ministry of Messiah the Prince.

3.5 years at the first coming as Messiah. Then the remainder as Prince during the GT. Daniel 9:27 has little to do with Revelation 13, but more about the sounding of the 7th Trumpet itself.
 

Randy Kluth

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I Fully Understand Your Claim, And Matthew 24:15 nor Matthew 24:21 Started in 70AD as claimed

The AOD Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 25:21 are future events unfulfilled

If you "fully understand my claim," why don't you address it? Or, are you acknowledging my argument, that the Great Distress/Great Tribulation in Luke 21 is the Jewish Punishment of the NT age, beginning in 70 AD and ending with the Return of Christ? Somehow, you brush past this again and again, without acknowledging it, just reasserting a different argument.

The whole discussion of another argument, regarding the Abomination of Desolation, hinges on what the Great Tribulation of Luke 21 is. Your failing to recognize that is what causes you to assume the AoD is a *future* event!

Again, before switching subjects to what the AoD is and what is written in Matthew 24, please address my main argument here, that the Great Tribulation in Luke 21 is the Jewish Diaspora. If you can't or won't discuss it, then you've in effect relinquished your argument against it and acknowledged the truth of what I say.
 

bbyrd009

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A lexicon is just a glorified concordance. It gives basic definitions and uses. But given that verbs in Greek can have up to 580 endings which all give a nuanced meaning- lexicons lack severely.
i mostly recommend them as a good step up from a plain english translation, and they generally/always offer at least an approach to the Greek tense...but again, what would you recommend in their place?

I just don't know what you were trying to say. It may be plain ot you . but it wasn't to me so I simply said so.
No sweat; sometimes I get abbreviational:)
However, you might spend a bit of time looking for any of the following, “read the Word, teach the Word, study the Word,” etc, anything other than (hear) the Word iow
So, just tell me what doesn’t make sense in there and I’ll clarify it
Well speaking in tongues is not for everyday communicating between people.
he said, gnostically? I wouldn't be writing that in stone just yet iiwy

And wordsa have specific meanings (even when used euphemistically). So allegorizing Scriptures are a dangerous tool.
How is it you did not know I was not talking about bread?
 
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Marty fox

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Matthew 24:29-30 below "Literally" takes place at the second coming, something that preterist deny will "Literally" is seen

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I don’t agree I see that as coming on the clouds in judgement like in the verses below but how about addressing the verses I did post

Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

The verse above wasn’t seen literally
 

ScottA

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Your claims are "False"

Jesus Christ was resurrected into a glorified tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, this body entered a room with doors shut, and vanished out of the disciples sight

Jesus Christ ascended to heaven in this tangible, glorified, "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone

1 Corinthians 15:20 & 42-44KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

John 20:26-27KJV
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Luke 24:30-31KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
The best that you have done is to pit other scriptures against those scriptures that I have given you that you have not acknowledged nor received, as if God's word could be against itself. You pick and choose only what suits you and your own doctrine, not reconciling all scripture. All the while stating that you "disagree", as if that were the ultimate test. It's not.

Enough.

I leave you therefore, to the "flesh", that your spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 

ScottA

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This is not talking about a resurrection period. Being born from above has nothing to do with the physical body. It has to do with the spiritual connection with the Holy Spirit.

At the Second Coming there will be a physical change. Incorruptible physical bodies do exist in Paradise. They have been there since 30AD. The whole of Abraham’s bosom left the confines of souls tasting death, called sleep, in sheol. They physically entered Paradise, because Paradise is a physical location.

You do realize the angels and the redeemed in Paradise are not spiritually blind and dead in their sins. That is only Adam's flesh and blood. Adam's sinful dead flesh cannot take sin into heaven. That is the flesh that is banned and in spiritual darkness. The rest of creation is doing just fine as equally physical and spiritual.
The discussion that you are commenting on is regarding whether of not the flesh inherits the kingdom of God. It does not.

But now you also bring up other matters: Nor, as you assert, is there "soul" "sleep."

"To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8

You give no good reason to hear more from you.
 

ScottA

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Where does Paul say this? Titus 2:13

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

Even God on the GWT will be finely seen on earth. The GWT has always been physically on earth and in heaven. In Psalms we are told the heaven is the throne, and earth is the footstool. Not a separate foot rest, but the actual base is on the earth. In Adam's fallen flesh, we cannot see it, but it is still there.

God is not going to come down from heaven, Jesus Christ as Prince will. God is already on the earth. At the Second Coming we will be able to see God on earth.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
The rest of what you refer to is not of this world or this present earth, but rather the new heaven and earth. As it is with Christ's return, it is not here on the old earth, but as He said, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." John 14:3
 

ScottA

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Yet the flesh is not the point. It is Adam's dead corruptible flesh that is the point. The permanent physical body is only made by God, not Adam's genetic copies. 2 Corinthians 5:1. It is the "tent" that cannot enter God's presence. You are correct that the permanent "building" is way more than this temporal "tent". Yet the permanent incorruptible physical body is still flesh and blood. It is also imperishable, not subject to the decay of sin, and death by sin.

Adam and Eve enjoyed that permanent incorruptible physical body. The moment Adam disobeyed God, that flesh died, and Adam and Eve were given corruptible perishable physical flesh. God even made the birthing process more difficult than it was previously.
I understand, but somehow you have entered into this discussion not perceiving that it is about whether or not the flesh inherits the kingdom of God. It does not...and that has been what I have been addressing.

But, now you contend with those who error regarding the flesh. That is against the scriptures--that is the flesh speaking. "Flesh" is not mentioned regarding the kingdom of God. "Body" yes, but "a new creation", not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
 

ScottA

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Really, I'm not concerned about whether you want to or not discuss the subject. My concern is in correcting any false presentation of what the Scriptures say. And I'm quite prepared to be corrected myself, should I have failed to perceive and represent the Scriptures properly. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you and I keep talking about it.

I think, respectfully, that you're reading too much into various passages, largely because of your preconceived notion that Christ does not return physically. As I said, I'm not overly concerned about this because many Christians believe that Christ returned to more of a divine form, and less of a human form at his ascension. I personally believe that Jesus remains a divine human being forever, to be the "first born among many brethren," king over the kingdom of the world.

When the Scriptures say Jesus is coming back to appear to us for salvation, it is not saying that the world will not see him. It is rather only saying that *for the purpose of salvation* he is coming for the Church. He is coming for the unbelieving, ungodly world for an entirely different reason!
No...I am not "reading too much into various passages." That is not at all what I am doing-- Jesus flat out bottom lined against what you are saying, and I have quoted Him...and you do not receive it. That does not make this a discussion-- I am telling you, and this I am doing because you have not heard Christ. I made it bold in your above comment, because you repeat your error--He said exactly the opposite.

As for Jesus remaining a human being forever: Human simply means man....in which case, no, Jesus was lower for a time, but has been raised up again. Nor is He or was He king over the world.

Okay, that's enough. If you are not going to receive it from Christ, you are not going to receive it from me. I leave you to your fate.
 

Randy Kluth

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No...I am not "reading too much into various passages." That is not at all what I am doing-- Jesus flat out bottom lined against what you are saying, and I have quoted Him...and you do not receive it. That does not make this a discussion-- I am telling you, and this I am doing because you have not heard Christ. I made it bold in your above comment, because you repeat your error--He said exactly the opposite.

As for Jesus remaining a human being forever: Human simply means man....in which case, no, Jesus was lower for a time, but has been raised up again. Nor is He or was He king over the world.

Okay, that's enough. If you are not going to receive it from Christ, you are not going to receive it from me. I leave you to your fate.

I just don't understand how a Christian can say to another Christian, "I leave you to your fate," as if a difference in a small doctrinal issue becomes a life or death issue for you?
 
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Timtofly

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Revelation 11:15-18
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
This does not mention a rapture, nor a Second Coming. This is 1 Seal, 6 Trumpets, and 7 Thunders after the Second Coming. When Jesus Messiah the Prince finishes the final harvest with all His angels on earth, the 7th Trumpet is the victory and celebration Trumpet, claiming it is all over and finished.

The 7th Trumpet is not the start. It is the finish line. It declares the The Work of Messiah the Prince is complete per Daniel 9:24. That is when all on earth are dead. And now Jesus can start the 1,000 year reign. Because all is made subject to Him except Death. He will then reign for 1,000 years and after Satan's little season, Death itself will be defeated.
 

Randy Kluth

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I understand, but somehow you have entered into this discussion not perceiving that it is about whether or not the flesh inherits the kingdom of God. It does not...and that has been what I have been addressing.

But, now you contend with those who error regarding the flesh. That is against the scriptures--that is the flesh speaking. "Flesh" is not mentioned regarding the kingdom of God. "Body" yes, but "a new creation", not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

You apparently don't understand what "flesh" means in Paul's writings? He's talking about the *sinful* flesh, and not generally about the human body. He's saying the *sinful flesh* cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. He's *not* saying that we cannot inherit the Kingdom *physically.*
 
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Truth7t7

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If you "fully understand my claim," why don't you address it? Or, are you acknowledging my argument, that the Great Distress/Great Tribulation in Luke 21 is the Jewish Punishment of the NT age, beginning in 70 AD and ending with the Return of Christ? Somehow, you brush past this again and again, without acknowledging it, just reasserting a different argument.

The whole discussion of another argument, regarding the Abomination of Desolation, hinges on what the Great Tribulation of Luke 21 is. Your failing to recognize that is what causes you to assume the AoD is a *future* event!

Again, before switching subjects to what the AoD is and what is written in Matthew 24, please address my main argument here, that the Great Tribulation in Luke 21 is the Jewish Diaspora. If you can't or won't discuss it, then you've in effect relinquished your argument against it and acknowledged the truth of what I say.
"Future" Events: Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are "Parallel" readings of the same events, that culminate in great distress/tribulation, and the Lords return "Future" Events:

The Instruction is to the "Future" church in Jerusalem to "Flee", as the Abomination Of Desolation begins,starting th "Future" great distress/tribulation

I Fully Understand Your Claim, And Matthew 24:15 nor Matthew 24:21 Started in 70AD as claimed

The AOD Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 25:21 are future events unfulfilled

Your claim the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled over centuries in the church age 1900 years and counting, this is a big smile to say the least!

Daniel's Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 is a future event and hasn't taken place anytime in history

When this Abomination takes place, the great tribulation starts, and the human man that starts it, will be present on earth to witness the second coming and his final judgement in destruction by the Lord at the "Consummation" (The End)

To claim "The Great Tribulation" represents history over the past 1900 years and counting isnt found to be supported by scripture

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation


1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
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Truth7t7

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I don’t agree I see that as coming on the clouds in judgement like in the verses below but how about addressing the verses I did post

Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

The verse above wasn’t seen literally
Yes you are one of many Preterist that deny the literal second coming is seen in Matthew 24:29-30 below

Why?

Because Preterist cant have a "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 and the second coming "Literally" seen in Matthew 24:29-30 taking place "Immediately After The Tribulation"

Preterist remove the "Literal" second coming seen, with symbolic allegory of a judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD, making way for their claimed 70AD "Great Tribulation"

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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Randy Kluth

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"Future" Events: Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are "Parallel" readings of the same events, that culminate in great distress/tribulation...

We agree that Matt 24, Mar 13, and Luke 21 are parallel readings. And that's why I focus, in particular, on Luke 21 where the meaning is crystal clear that the "Great Tribulation" encompasses the entire NT age. It is the Great Punishment of the Jewish People, beginning with the dispersion during the Roman invasion and ending with the Return of Christ. This is the Jewish Diaspora.

How it can be understood differently is beyond me. It certainly doesn't warrant a "smile," particularly since a great number of biblical scholars see it in just this way.

I think if you will meditate on it for awhile and give it some honest thought, you may change your mind, just as I did. And if you do, things may come together for you better than they ever did before. They did for me.
 

ScottA

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I just don't understand how a Christian can say to another Christian, "I leave you to your fate," as if a difference in a small doctrinal issue becomes a life or death issue for you?
This should not surprise you. Paul did likewise, and even taught Timothy to do the same.

But it is no small matter to argue against the clear statement made by Christ in John 14:19.
 
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