a non-eschatological Coming?

[Truth7t7]

I did say that the great tribulation is on the saints it was via apostate Israel and Rome and is still happening today. My point was that the great tribulation is on the church and gets confused with the wrath of God which in on the world.

Why do you think that the antichrist and the beast are the same?

John is the only writer in the bible to use the term antichrist in his epistles and this very same John wrote revelation and he didn’t use the term antichrist in revelation at all but used the term the beast do you ever wonder why?

If you read the four times in the bible that the term antichrist is mentioned you will see a totally different description than how John describes the beast of revelation and its because they are different beings.

I am saying exactly what the bible says and shows

Where is there a mid trib rapture in the bible?

I don’t believe in a pre or mid trib rapture because the bible doesn’t show it or teach it. Paul teaches that the rapture happens at the last trumpet and the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in revelation.

My eschatology agrees with the bible

I Disagree With The Preterist Claim

No the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 didnt take place in 70AD Jerusalem

The AOD Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 25:21 are future events unfulfilled

 

[Truth7t7]

I've never denied that there is a 3.5 years reign of Antichrist, but I do deny that it is the Great Tribulation of Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Now *where* does this Great Distress say it is 3.5 years? The 3.5 years comes from Dan 7, where it is given as the reign of Antichrist--not the Great Tribulation! You are confusing the two things. The Reign of Antichrist is not the Great Tribulation! The Great Tribulation is defined in the Olivet Discourse as the Wrath of God against the Jewish People, beginning with the destruction of the Jewish temple!

I don't expect you to address this point, because quite frankly, you can't. This is just what the Bible teaches, Curtis. Please adjust your theology to the Bible. Don't adjust what the Bible says to your preconceived theology!

Quote Randy Kluth: Please adjust your theology to the Bible. Don't adjust what the Bible says to your preconceived theology!

No the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 didnt take place in 70AD Jerusalem

The AOD Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 25:21 are future events unfulfilled

Your claim the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 is fulfilled over centuries in the church age 1900 years and counting, this is a big smile to say the least!

Daniel's Abomination of Desolation seen in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 is a future event and hasn't taken place anytime in history

When this Abomination takes place, the great tribulation starts, and the human man that starts it, will be present on earth to witness the second coming and his final judgement in destruction by the Lord at the "Consummation" (The End)

To claim "The Great Tribulation" represents history over the past 1900 years and counting isnt found to be supported by scripture

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[ScottA]

Your confusion is that Jesus didnt maintain a tangible body of flesh and bone that was 100% "Spiritual" that isnt interpreted as a transparent ghost flying around in the sky

This tangible "Spiritual Body" ate physical food, and could enter a room with doors shut, and could vanish out of mans sight

No place in scripture does it suggest this "Spiritual Body" changed form, your claim of "Flesh and Blood" pertains to the "Natural Human Body" and not the "Glorified Spiritual" body as seen below

Jesus Christ maintained the glorified Spiritual "Incorruptible" body of flesh and bone, that wasn't the natural human body of flesh and blood

1 Corinthians 15:44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

For lack of understanding what is written, you speak against Christ who explained that spiritual body--not at all as flesh:

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
​

In error, you imagine your own truth according to the flesh, adding and taking away wherever it pleases you.

 

[Timtofly]

I did say that the great tribulation is on the saints it was via apostate Israel and Rome and is still happening today. My point was that the great tribulation is on the church and gets confused with the wrath of God which in on the world.

Why do you think that the antichrist and the beast are the same?

John is the only writer in the bible to use the term antichrist in his epistles and this very same John wrote revelation and he didn’t use the term antichrist in revelation at all but used the term the beast do you ever wonder why?

If you read the four times in the bible that the term antichrist is mentioned you will see a totally different description than how John describes the beast of revelation and its because they are different beings.

I am saying exactly what the bible says and shows

Where is there a mid trib rapture in the bible?

I don’t believe in a pre or mid trib rapture because the bible doesn’t show it or teach it. Paul teaches that the rapture happens at the last trumpet and the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in revelation.

My eschatology agrees with the bible

You are close, but Paul claims the Second Coming happens at the rapture, but that is all; and the Second Coming is not at John's 7th Trumpet. You are going to have to show that in Revelation.

You are correct in that great tribulation, the entire last 1992 years has been while the church has been spreading the Gospel. The last 1992 years has produced the only martyrs found in the book of Revelation. The souls under the alter have come out of this great tribulation. Many of those in Revelation 7:9-17 were martyred over the last 1992 years, but not all the redeemed have been martyred, even though many have also suffered under persecution and troubled times. Sometimes the church has thrived and been blessed. But all the church is already gathered and before that heavenly throne between the 6th and 7th Seal being opened. No more from earth will join that number, after the 7th Seal is opened.

Christ as Prince is already on earth and sitting on that glorious throne in Jerusalem, at that point. The redeemed from that point on are the firstfruits of the 1,000 year reign on earth. These souls are harvested by the angels themselves and start life in the Millennium after the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Paul has the archangel with the Trump of God. That may be the Trumpet that makes the last sounding. But it is brought to earth by that archangel at the Second Coming, even before the 7th Seal is opened. There are 6 other Trumpets and 7 Thunders that have to sound before that final role call of who will remain and who will be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Paul did not include Zechariah 14 in his eschatological statement. Nor could Paul be referring to John's words from the book of Revelation. Revelation was not even written yet.

Paul was writing from the perspective of resurrection and the change from this sin nature flesh, to a flesh without sin. The change from the corruptible to the incorruptible. That was Paul's perspective in both Corinthians and Thessalonians. Paul was not explaining the total ramifications of the Second Coming. So readers should not interpret Zechariah 14 and the book of Revelation by the limitations of Paul's eschatological viewpoint. Even Jesus gave more detail in the OD, than Paul mentioned. Paul was drawing from what was known in the OD. Paul knew that Christ as Prince was coming to earth at a future point in time. Paul attached a resurrection that was physical and a change that was physical that would happen at the Second Coming. That is all Paul did. And people have run with Paul's writings using many private interpretations that Paul never even intended.

If you read Titus 2:13 Paul mentioned God would also appear in all His glory as well as Jesus Christ. Another fact that Paul knew, but left out of the letters to the Corinthians and Thessolinians.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

When the Second Coming happens all spiritual blindness will be removed. Those on earth will see creation as it actually appears and not "through a glass darkly".

 

[ScottA]

There is no contradiction at all. This is also how scholars interpret this, and you are not more learned than they are. The world, that is the world generally as a place of unbelief, will no longer see Jesus because he will die. Generally speaking, the world even today does not see him because he died and is no longer on earth. Not even believers see him.

But Jesus was making an exception for his Disciples and for some believers at that time who he said would see him, meaning they would see him after his resurrection. This was important as a testimony to the fact he had been resurrected.

He does not need to prove this by appearing all through history. Rather, he only had to establish the fact at that time before ascending into heaven. "Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe."

This one issue seems to be the crux of the problem. I'll reply to it separately:

You, and indeed "learned scholars", seem to have unwittingly explained away the truth according to your own understanding. It appears you have made your own exception...which Jesus has not done.

Above you explain what you perceive to be His exception--and that much is true. But you seem to do so only to defend your error of deviating from His exception, and then add to it a physical fleshly return of Christ a second time--which He has clearly stated will not happen in the world. Which, non-event, is then confirmed by the apostle Paul, saying that it is not an event visible to all the world, but "apart from" the sins of the world and only visible "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Thus, if we can agree that Christ does not appear a second time to the world, let us continue. If not, I will not entertain you further.

 

[Truth7t7]

For lack of understanding what is written, you speak against Christ who explained that spiritual body--not at all as flesh:

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
​

In error, you imagine your own truth according to the flesh, adding and taking away wherever it pleases you.

Your claims are "False"

Jesus Christ was resurrected into a glorified tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, this body entered a room with doors shut, and vanished out of the disciples sight

Jesus Christ ascended to heaven in this tangible, glorified, "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone

1 Corinthians 15:20 & 42-44KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

John 20:26-27KJV
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Luke 24:30-31KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

 

[Timtofly]

For lack of understanding what is written, you speak against Christ who explained that spiritual body--not at all as flesh:

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
​

In error, you imagine your own truth according to the flesh, adding and taking away wherever it pleases you.

This is not talking about a resurrection period. Being born from above has nothing to do with the physical body. It has to do with the spiritual connection with the Holy Spirit.

At the Second Coming there will be a physical change. Incorruptible physical bodies do exist in Paradise. They have been there since 30AD. The whole of Abraham’s bosom left the confines of souls tasting death, called sleep, in sheol. They physically entered Paradise, because Paradise is a physical location.

You do realize the angels and the redeemed in Paradise are not spiritually blind and dead in their sins. That is only Adam's flesh and blood. Adam's sinful dead flesh cannot take sin into heaven. That is the flesh that is banned and in spiritual darkness. The rest of creation is doing just fine as equally physical and spiritual.

 

[ScottA]

That sounds like Gnostic cults, who deny the physical resurrection of the saints. Dualism separates out the flesh as evil from the spirit as good. This dichotomy is Gnosticism or similar.

Although the Bible would have us subject our physical bodies to the Spirit of God, the thought is to align the physical with the spiritual, and not to exterminate, denigrate, or dispose of the physical.

I wouldn't know about "Gnostic cults", but it is biblical to say the flesh is passing away--not inheriting the kingdom of God. You have some things completely backwards.

 

[Timtofly]

Thus, if we can agree that Christ does not appear a second time to the world, let us continue. If not, I will not entertain you further.

Where does Paul say this? Titus 2:13

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

Even God on the GWT will be finely seen on earth. The GWT has always been physically on earth and in heaven. In Psalms we are told the heaven is the throne, and earth is the footstool. Not a separate foot rest, but the actual base is on the earth. In Adam's fallen flesh, we cannot see it, but it is still there.

God is not going to come down from heaven, Jesus Christ as Prince will. God is already on the earth. At the Second Coming we will be able to see God on earth.

 

[ScottA]

You are adding too much human understanding into your doctrine.

Paul claimed the physical was the corruptible becoming incorruptible. That deals with the physical. Then the putting on of immortality is putting on our spirit over the incorruptible physical body. That deals with the spiritual. The full image of God as a son of God is soul, body, and spirit.

There is currently the death of both the physical and spiritual. We are totally separated from the spirit. That is why the Holy Spirit is given to mankind as interest. There is not a "physical here" and a "spiritual there". Creation is fully spiritual and physical. We are just blind to the spiritual aspect of Creation outside of God's Word and the Holy Spirit. At the Second Coming that blindness will be removed from all of creation. That is why all on earth will see the angels and Satan. That is why the pit is opened and those angels will be loosed.

No...but I am speaking plainly, repeating what is written and explaining it in truth.

The error of "physical" putting on incorruptible, is not as you say as "over", but indeed as Paul said, it is "not...that body" at all, but "a new creation."

Furthermore, we do not go to God bringing Him flesh that He should be in our likeness thereafter. No, but rather, God being spirit, and Him raising us up to be One with Him--we take on His likeness...which is spirit. And the flesh returns to the earth and is dissolved with fervent heat and with fire. But that is not to say, that there is nothing physical about the new spiritual body--heaven forbid (and you have this part correct)! No, the perfect creation of God is not less than what has been manifest in the world--but more. The difference is, it does not include the flesh, as many believe.

 

[Curtis]

I've never denied that there is a 3.5 years reign of Antichrist, but I do deny that it is the Great Tribulation of Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Now *where* does this Great Distress say it is 3.5 years? The 3.5 years comes from Dan 7, where it is given as the reign of Antichrist--not the Great Tribulation! You are confusing the two things. The Reign of Antichrist is not the Great Tribulation! The Great Tribulation is defined in the Olivet Discourse as the Wrath of God against the Jewish People, beginning with the destruction of the Jewish temple!

I don't expect you to address this point, because quite frankly, you can't. This is just what the Bible teaches, Curtis. Please adjust your theology to the Bible. Don't adjust what the Bible says to your preconceived theology!

A CORRECT understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel’s people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel’s 70 sevens.

With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.

Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.' In the middle of the ’seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power

Now back to Matthew 24:15, which is the abomination of desolation/son of perdition event that Daniel says will happen in the middle of the 70th week - it is after this that Jesus says the GREAT TRIBULATION will start:

Mat 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mat 24:17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,

Mat 24:18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

Mat 24:19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!

Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Therefore YOU ARE WRONG in claiming the entire New Testament period is the tribulation.

And since the great tribulation doesn’t begin until after the Matthew 24:15 event that’s right in the middle of Daniels 70th week period of 7 years, this confirms that the entire tribulation is 84 months, and that the 42 months the beast has power to give the mark and kill the saints is the great tribulation.

Jesus said the tribulation will be the worst time of trouble ever to occur.

The time period that the beast we call THE antichrist- not just an antichrist, of which there are many - rules the entire world and is possessed by Satan, will be the worst time of trouble the world has ever seen, and he’s not yet on the scene, and not yet not ruling the whole world, and the tribulation period has not even started yet.

 

[Timtofly]

No...but I am speaking plainly, repeating what is written and explaining it in truth.

The error of "physical" putting on incorruptible, is not as you say as "over", but indeed as Paul said, it is "not...that body" at all, but "a new creation."

Furthermore, we do not go to God bringing Him flesh that He should be in our likeness thereafter. No, but rather, God being spirit, and Him raising us up to be One with Him--we take on His likeness...which is spirit. And the flesh returns to the earth and is dissolved with fervent heat and with fire. But that is not to say, that there is nothing physical about the new spiritual body--heaven forbid (and you have this part correct)! No, the perfect creation of God is not less than what has been manifest in the world--but more. The difference is, it does not include the flesh, as many believe.

Yet the flesh is not the point. It is Adam's dead corruptible flesh that is the point. The permanent physical body is only made by God, not Adam's genetic copies. 2 Corinthians 5:1. It is the "tent" that cannot enter God's presence. You are correct that the permanent "building" is way more than this temporal "tent". Yet the permanent incorruptible physical body is still flesh and blood. It is also imperishable, not subject to the decay of sin, and death by sin.

Adam and Eve enjoyed that permanent incorruptible physical body. The moment Adam disobeyed God, that flesh died, and Adam and Eve were given corruptible perishable physical flesh. God even made the birthing process more difficult than it was previously.

 

[Truth7t7]

I wouldn't know about "Gnostic cults", but it is biblical to say the flesh is passing away--not inheriting the kingdom of God. You have some things completely backwards.

Jesus Christ was resurrected into a glorified tangible "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone, this body entered a room with doors shut, and vanished out of the disciples sight

Jesus Christ ascended to heaven in this tangible, glorified, "Spiritual Body" of flesh and bone

1 Corinthians 15:20 & 42-44KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

John 20:26-27KJV
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Luke 24:30-31KJV
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

i cant imagine what might supercede a lexicon; let’s hear it!
(speaking in tongues, am i? :))
and there are no accusations in there that i am aware of rn? have a good one, gotta run

A lexicon is just a glorified concordance. It gives basic definitions and uses. But given that verbs in Greek can have up to 580 endings which all give a nuanced meaning- lexicons lack severely.

and dont take this wrong ok, but that is all plain english up there, and what you are doing here is a great way to dodge the issue eh
we only fool ourselves in the end, or so they say

Well you failed at trying to read my mind. I just don't know what you were trying to say. It may be plain ot you . but it wasn't to me so I simply said so.

also, this doesn’t seem to take into account “speaking in tongues,” which is im sure some religious experiential thing to most believers at first…point being He knows how to confuse language, and fwiw i am not finding where Yah “created” language at all? Although that seems pretty strange, surely in there somewhere? dunno

Well speaking in tongues is not for everyday communicating between people. But languages are! And wordsa have specific meanings (even when used euphemistically). So allegorizing Scriptures are a dangerous tool. It is all subjective based on the individual or the group doing the allegorizing because they got a "revelation from the Lord as to what a verse truly means"!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Many words have more than one meaning. Yes, "genea" can refer to the people of Israel or to a single "generation" of anywhere from 20-70 years. It is the latter meaning that holds sway here because it is *context* that determines which meaning applies to "genea."

Jesus had just addressed his "generation" specifically in a time period, namely those who were abusing the Law at that time and those who were rejecting him as Messiah. So just finding that "genea" can refer generally to the people of Israel does not really count for anything.

It is how the word is being applied *in context* that is determinative. And it's clear that Jesus is speaking of a short time period, referring to those who were presently sinning, abusing the Law, and rejecting him as Messiah who would, within 40 years, suffer the Roman punishment in 70 AD.

Wrong Randy. If Jesus wished to use generation in a specific time frame Aiaon would have been the more used word.

Jesus in the Olivet discourse, was not addressing teh generation but teh disciples. they asked three specific questions to which He answered as reocrded in the synoptics.

!. When will the temple be destroyed.
2. What is the sign of your coming.
3. what is the sign of the end of the world.

The context is in answering the disciples and not the population as a whole. Passages that show th econtext is the Jewish people:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This has not happened yet.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The people group (Jews-genea) who sees these things will not pass away.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I understand the word. You seem not to understand what "all" means. One generation will see all the events, including the second coming and gathering of the saints by angels. Obviously those events did not take place.

If you knew grammatic construction, you would not say that.

But Matt. 24 of the Olivert Discourse mostly refers to answering the last two questions:

2. what is the sign of your coming.
3. What is the sign of the end of the age!

Thie Luke portion of the Olivet discourse deals mostly with answering the first question the disciples asked:

When will the temple be destroyed- and that occurred in 70 AD That is not preterist, but simply history and fulfilment of prophesy as well as Israel beign scattered until teh last days when god would restore thm to their land to pass them under the rod of HIs judgment and purge the unbelievers out.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you knew grammatic construction, you would not say that.

But Matt. 24 of the Olivert Discourse mostly refers to answering the last two questions:

2. what is the sign of your coming.
3. What is the sign of the end of the age!

Thie Luke portion of the Olivet discourse deals mostly with answering the first question the disciples asked:

When will the temple be destroyed- and that occurred in 70 AD That is not preterist, but simply history and fulfilment of prophesy as well as Israel beign scattered until teh last days when god would restore thm to their land to pass them under the rod of HIs judgment and purge the unbelievers out.

"The Complete Package" is sold in the Preterist claim

The Temple and Jerusalem destruction by Roman Soldiers, which accounts for their claims in fulfillment of Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation in 70AD

 

[Randy Kluth]

Quote Randy Kluth: Please adjust your theology to the Bible. Don't adjust what the Bible says to your preconceived theology!

No the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 didnt take place in 70AD Jerusalem

The AOD Matthew 24:15 and Great Tribulation Matthew 25:21 are future events unfulfilled

You don't ever seem to be able to actually debate a subject? Your way of discussing differences is simply to assert your beliefs, which proves nothing at all. If you never take seriously another point of view, how are you ever going to be corrected on anything you may be wrong about?

The Great Tribulation I cited was in Luke 21, and it clearly was associated with the fall of the temple and with an entire age of Jewish Punishment, ending at the Coming of the Lord. You should at least have acknowledged this.

Instead, you assert something about Matt 24, which I believe to be the same Discourse as the one in Luke 21. You may dispute that, but that's an entirely different argument. I was stating that the Great Tribulation in *Luke 21* was about the fall of the temple, and continuing. Is your silence on that particular issue confirmation from you that I'm right? I'm going to assume that's so, since you failed to respond to it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This one issue seems to be the crux of the problem. I'll reply to it separately:

You, and indeed "learned scholars", seem to have unwittingly explained away the truth according to your own understanding. It appears you have made your own exception...which Jesus has not done.

Above you explain what you perceive to be His exception--and that much is true. But you seem to do so only to defend your error of deviating from His exception, and then add to it a physical fleshly return of Christ a second time--which He has clearly stated will not happen in the world. Which, non-event, is then confirmed by the apostle Paul, saying that it is not an event visible to all the world, but "apart from" the sins of the world and only visible "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Thus, if we can agree that Christ does not appear a second time to the world, let us continue. If not, I will not entertain you further.

Really, I'm not concerned about whether you want to or not discuss the subject. My concern is in correcting any false presentation of what the Scriptures say. And I'm quite prepared to be corrected myself, should I have failed to perceive and represent the Scriptures properly. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you and I keep talking about it.

I think, respectfully, that you're reading too much into various passages, largely because of your preconceived notion that Christ does not return physically. As I said, I'm not overly concerned about this because many Christians believe that Christ returned to more of a divine form, and less of a human form at his ascension. I personally believe that Jesus remains a divine human being forever, to be the "first born among many brethren," king over the kingdom of the world.

When the Scriptures say Jesus is coming back to appear to us for salvation, it is not saying that the world will not see him. It is rather only saying that *for the purpose of salvation* he is coming for the Church. He is coming for the unbelieving, ungodly world for an entirely different reason!

 

[Randy Kluth]

A CORRECT understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation.

No, this is a diversionary tactic, switching to another passage. I gave you expressly-stated information backing up my point, and you just deflect and change the subject matter. I was arguing to you concerning the definition of the Great Tribulation or Great Distress from Luke 21--not Dan 9! If you can't argue the point, then never mind. I'll discuss Dan 9 *after* you answer the point. If your answer is to divert, then nothing will be accomplished. Rules of engagement are to discuss the matter at hand--not switch to another matter.