The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

Paul didn’t mention the vials. So with the same logic, there is no last vial :)
That’s what they want you to believe

That sounds non-sequitor to me.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

Paul didn’t mention the vials. So with the same logic, there is no last vial :)
That’s what they want you to believe

The last vial is the 7th. The last trumpet is the 7th. Paul knew about the 7 trumpets and addressed the last one. It is the 7th trump that Christ returns in. No surprise that it is the last one.

 

[Naomi25]

Hell isnt eternal, as Hell will be cast into the lake if fire, this is eternal

Revelation 20:14-15KJV
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

‘Eternal suffering in the lake of fire’ is often just labelled as ‘hell’….a place understood as constant eternal punishment.
But if specifics are essential to you…
“Unbelievers will be judged into the lake of fire, which is the second death”…

 

[Naomi25]

Of course there is other text. Genesis 6:1-2

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

Those men were the offspring of Adam and Eve. The sons of God were created on the 6th day.

There are…several assumptions you have made here that don’t, in my estimation, stand up under scripture.
Your assumption that the ‘men were offspring of Adam and Eve’ is pure supposition on your part, and, given later references to ‘sons of God’ is hard to support.

And, as for your first point, while Gen 6 does mention other people, there is nothing to suggest that these people came either from Adam or Eve or from an ‘outside’ population of people God had made and called them ‘sons of God’.

. Genesis 1 cannot be about Eve, not even symbolically. Eve was taken out of Adam not even in the image of God. Of course if she was equal to Adam she would be an equal son of God in God's image, but the operation was not the same as day 6 creation. And they were not created at the same time. Eve came much later.

I…am left somewhat speechless over this, and hope I am not understanding you correctly.
Are you, perhaps, saying that Eve was not also ‘created in the image of God’?
Because to make that claim is to say that women do not have the inherent worth due to God’s image bearers. And thus would only find their worth equaled to animals.
I don’t think I really need to label the reasons why this view is appalling and unbiblical.

But, putting that aside…to say that Eve ‘came much later’ and that she could not have been created in Gen 1 (even symbolically) is, I’m sorry…guff.
Gen 1 is considered by scholars to be the ‘macro’ view of creation, and Gen 2 the ‘micro’.
Have you not stopped to realise that the events that go on in Gen 1 are totally out of sink with how we understand nature to work? Like, for example, God separates ‘light and dark’ on day 1, but the sun and moon are not created until day 4. More strangely, plants are created on day 3…one day before the sun is created…and yet we know vegetation requires sunlight.
Now…granted all life could survive a single day without the sun, but if we truly believe God has made the universe under certain scientific conditions…which we ought…he is a God of order, not chaos…then might we then suppose that Gen 1 is to be seen, in some light, as symbolic?
Indeed…when we read in Gen 1, on day six, that God made ‘male and female’…it seems rather presumptuous to insist which ‘male and female’ it is referring to.
So, once again, I find you are making assumptions from the text that the text itself doesn’t speak to.

 

[Naomi25]

Have you ever considered that Genesis 1 was a general revelation? Genesis 2 was more specific about a single son of God? You cannot use the second mention to completely nullify the first mention. Genesis 2 builds on Genesis 1, it does not supplant and redefine Genesis 1. All the sons of God were created the same way. Genesis 2 is slightly more specific. This man was identified by gender, not by the difference of man and son of God. All the sons of God had gender, because they were created male and female.

Again, you seem to be presupposing that ‘sons of God’ is a reference to human men. I disagree.
I don’t believe I am mentioning Gen 2 in order to ‘nullify’ the first. Indeed, I believe both passages speak to the creation of male and female (as specifically stated) and do not mention other ‘people’. As I keep saying…there is the distinct possibility within the passage of it referring to other people, but both passages are ambiguous in that regard. Insisting something one way or the other is poor exegesis. The text remains deliberately vague.

.The only other way to read Genesis 1 is that each son of God were both male and female. Evidenced by God later viewing that as a single being containing both sexes, made for a lonely relationship on an individual level. Adam was not even named until after he named all the animals. Adam was not lonely until after being separated from the others and placed in the Garden. Adam was put to sleep to separate the male from the female.

Again..presuming that the ‘sons of God’ were human.
And once more, presumption on your part. ‘Adam was not lonely until after being separated from the others’…..please…show me where this is stated?

 

[Timtofly]

There are…several assumptions you have made here that don’t, in my estimation, stand up under scripture.
Your assumption that the ‘men were offspring of Adam and Eve’ is pure supposition on your part, and, given later references to ‘sons of God’ is hard to support.

And, as for your first point, while Gen 6 does mention other people, there is nothing to suggest that these people came either from Adam or Eve or from an ‘outside’ population of people God had made and called them ‘sons of God’.



I…am left somewhat speechless over this, and hope I am not understanding you correctly.
Are you, perhaps, saying that Eve was not also ‘created in the image of God’?
Because to make that claim is to say that women do not have the inherent worth due to God’s image bearers. And thus would only find their worth equaled to animals.
I don’t think I really need to label the reasons why this view is appalling and unbiblical.

But, putting that aside…to say that Eve ‘came much later’ and that she could not have been created in Gen 1 (even symbolically) is, I’m sorry…guff.
Gen 1 is considered by scholars to be the ‘macro’ view of creation, and Gen 2 the ‘micro’.
Have you not stopped to realise that the events that go on in Gen 1 are totally out of sink with how we understand nature to work? Like, for example, God separates ‘light and dark’ on day 1, but the sun and moon are not created until day 4. More strangely, plants are created on day 3…one day before the sun is created…and yet we know vegetation requires sunlight.
Now…granted all life could survive a single day without the sun, but if we truly believe God has made the universe under certain scientific conditions…which we ought…he is a God of order, not chaos…then might we then suppose that Gen 1 is to be seen, in some light, as symbolic?
Indeed…when we read in Gen 1, on day six, that God made ‘male and female’…it seems rather presumptuous to insist which ‘male and female’ it is referring to.
So, once again, I find you are making assumptions from the text that the text itself doesn’t speak to.

Being in sin is not in God's image, so your indignation of inequality is pointless. God does not view us as male or female as one being more favored over the other.

If you do not accept in Genesis 2 that Eve was taken out of Adam, then your view parts from God's Word.

"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

This is not symbolism for this:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,"

The sons of God multiplied and filled the earth.

Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Naomi25]

The morning stars were the angels. The sons of God were humans. God says He created both at the same time. One on day 4, the other on day 6. They both communicated with each other, giving God praise.

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ok…simple question…were humans created when God “laid the foundation of the earth”?
Simple question…big implications.


Psalm 82:1, 6-7
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

This passage above is very hard to argue against, which is presumably why you didn’t try.
“God” (elohim) has taken his place in the divine council. In the ‘midst’ of the “gods” (elohim) he holds judgement.
First…one must work to place these other ‘elohim’, which, outside of heavenly beings is hard. God is judging these beings for ruling unjustly over the nations. Two usual views of this is it’s either ‘Jewish elders’, which can be rejected because God never placed Jewish people over the other nations to rule them. The other option usually put forth is that God is talking to the other members of the Trinity. And we can see immediately the problem with this…God is chastising them for ruling wickedly, and promises that they shall ‘die like men’. Unless we want to entertain the notion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit have behaved wickedly and will be killed, we reject this outright.
So, if God is not speaking to Jewish men or the other members of the Trinity, who are these ‘sons of God’? Well, the passage tells us; they are ‘elohim’…the word used repeatedly in scripture for divine or spiritual beings. Does that sound like ‘men’ to you?
Or…how about the fact that God sentences these beings to ‘die like men’ even though they are ‘gods’? Would dying the death of man mean much to men? Aren’t they all going to die anyway? No…this punishment only means anything IF the beings being punished are more than man.

 

[Timtofly]

The great tribulation is a 7 year period of time.

Scripture for this is found where?

 

[Timtofly]

Job 38:4-7
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ok…simple question…were humans created when God “laid the foundation of the earth”?
Simple question…big implications.


Psalm 82:1, 6-7
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”

This passage above is very hard to argue against, which is presumably why you didn’t try.
“God” (elohim) has taken his place in the divine council. In the ‘midst’ of the “gods” (elohim) he holds judgement.
First…one must work to place these other ‘elohim’, which, outside of heavenly beings is hard. God is judging these beings for ruling unjustly over the nations. Two usual views of this is it’s either ‘Jewish elders’, which can be rejected because God never placed Jewish people over the other nations to rule them. The other option usually put forth is that God is talking to the other members of the Trinity. And we can see immediately the problem with this…God is chastising them for ruling wickedly, and promises that they shall ‘die like men’. Unless we want to entertain the notion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit have behaved wickedly and will be killed, we reject this outright.
So, if God is not speaking to Jewish men or the other members of the Trinity, who are these ‘sons of God’? Well, the passage tells us; they are ‘elohim’…the word used repeatedly in scripture for divine or spiritual beings. Does that sound like ‘men’ to you?
Or…how about the fact that God sentences these beings to ‘die like men’ even though they are ‘gods’? Would dying the death of man mean much to men? Aren’t they all going to die anyway? No…this punishment only means anything IF the beings being punished are more than man.

Yes, all things were created in the first 6 days.

Yes, those created on the 6th Day could still hold council with God. They are still glorified like we will be at the Second Coming, when we are restored as sons of God.

1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

 

[Naomi25]

Umm. We were in the image of God. You cannot get more heavenly. The angels were not created in the image of God. When Adam disobeyed God, all his descendants lost their heavenly standing in Seth. Seth was born in Adam's fallen image. We are currently not sons of God other than we have a soul. Genesis 5:1-3

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

We see here the contrast prior to sin, and Seth because of sin. We are fallen in dead flesh, and separated from our spirit which is the glory of God. At the Second Coming we will be glorified, and our spirit will return to us like a "robe of white" as John symbolizes in the 5th Seal.

I think you are showing your fundamental lack of understanding in what the phrase ‘elohim’ means….and perhaps what being created ‘in the image of God’ means.

Humans have always been created with a physical/spiritual component. We were made that way before the fall, and we’ll have that element after Christ returns.
Elohim, however, refers to spiritual beings.

Pass 104:4 - Who makes his angels spirits.
John 4:24 - God is spirit.
Rev 16:14 - They are demonic spirits.
1 Sam 28:13 - The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth”.

In these verses we see that angels are spiritual beings. God is a spiritual being. Demons are spiritual beings. And even the ‘ghost’ of Samuel is labelled as a ‘god’…because he was a spiritual being.
The point being, humans are not ‘elohim’. And, of course, no elohim are like God…he is species unique…having all the attributes that make him God. But when we look through scripture we absolutely find others that are referred to as both ‘spiritual beings’ and even ‘gods’.

But I suppose the point remains…just because humans were/are created in the ‘image’ of God does not mean they will ever be just spiritual beings. God created us with both spiritual/physical characteristics.

 

[Naomi25]

Christ comes to Jerusalem to set upon the throne of David, ie Jerusalem. Christ is the Prince of Israel. Christ has yet to actually be the Prince of Israel. Christ did not hover and remote in as Messiah. Why would He be remoting as Israel's Prince? Being Prince is a physical task on earth, not a heavenly one.

Not sure what you mean by ‘remoting’.
I agree that Christ will reign on earth, most likely from Jerusalem. But I reject the idea that it will be…or can be seen in scripture to be…some ‘intermediate’ age between this one, and the eternal one. I think Christ will reign, physically on earth, during the eternal age, on the new earth in the new Jerusalem.

.
The Second Coming is to earth. And only then will the prophecy that "Israel is saved in a day" will be fulfilled. You realize the metaphor of the olive tree only works in the here and now. At the Second Coming it is complete and no longer applicable. The Lamb's book of life is opened. God's judgment will fall on those who destroy the earth. The only choice John gives after the Second Coming is to be beheaded. Only those beheaded will belong to the olive tree metaphor if it even applied.

The Millennium is no longer about the olive tree.

Hmmm. Too bad the Millennium is not supportable as an intermediate age.

 

[Naomi25]

It is not a strawman. Amil has error in it's approach.

It’s not a strawman?
Let’s see…you presumed an argument that Amil’s hold, when we don’t, and then said it was an insupportable idea.
It’s that, like, the definition of a strawman argument??

 

[n2thelight]

It's nonsense. Jesus doesn't come at the 7th seal because he comes at the 7th trump which means he is here before the 7th vial pours.

The 666 for satan is equally as wrong.

I strongly disagree ,as I agree with the below

A Study on 666 and 777

By Servant of God


Now we know that 666 comes before 777, so let's take a look at what happens in 666 and 777.

Let's start with 666

We will start with the 6th SEAL

With the Seals being knowledge put in your forehead of what happens in the trumps and vials, we will start with the 6th Seal.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when He (The Lamb) had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black
as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Now this is Satan copying the true Christ's return, this is the knowledge that Satan comes before the true Christ.

Now let's go to the 6th TRUMP, when the trumps sound that's the time of action.

Revelation 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, “Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.”

Euphrates is connected with the judgments of the great day, (See Jer. 46. 4 –10) we see that these four angels are fallen angels that come with Satan.

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Now when you see hour, day, month, year that means a fixed point of time.

Now let's go to the 6th VIAL

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east be prepared.

Here again you have the river Euphrates, this is when the kings that are east of the Euphrates are gathered together in a place called Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14 For they are spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Recap of 666

6th SEAL, knowledge that Satan comes before the true Christ.

6th TRUMP, four angels loosed, Satan as Antichrist is here with his fallen angels. (supernatural are here)

6th VIAL, vial poured out on the Euphrates, kings gathered at Armageddon to battle at that great day of God Almighty.

Now let's look at 777

Let's go to the 7th SEAL

Revelation 8:1 And when He (the Lamb) had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So we see that the seventh seal was opened and there was silence in heaven, Why? because Satan (the Accuser) is here on earth.

And we see that after the 7th seal is opened the trumps start to sound Revelation 8:6.

Let's go to the 7th TRUMP

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world are
become the kingdoms of our LORD, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and
that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 11:19 And the Temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His Temple the ark of His testament:
and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So we see at the 7th trump Jesus is returning and it's the time of judgement. Now the 7th trump contains the 7 vials, the wrath of God.

Let's go to the 7th VIAL

The vials are when the judgments are poured out unto the people that worship the beast and the number of his name.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the Temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done.”

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men
were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed
God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Recap of 777

7th SEAL, 7th seal opened and silence in heaven, after that the trumps start to sound.

7th TRUMP, great voices in heaven, He shall reign for ever and ever.” Time for judgments (vials) to start.

7th VIAL, 7th angel poured out his vial into the air, saying, “It is done”, This is when the great hail out of heaven falls unto them in a place called Armageddon, at that great day of God Almighty.

666 and 777, Bible Study, theseason.org

 

[Naomi25]

Obviously. The branch cut off would indicate that for thousands of years many of Israel would have to be removed from the Lamb's book of life on principle alone.

I’m sorry…didn’t you say - “Every human ever conceived is written in the Lamb's book of life.” in post #720
How is it then ‘obvious’ that really they are not? You are making contradicting arguments.
Besides…Rev 13:8 tells us that ‘all on earth will worship it (the beast from the sea), everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb…”
So…it would seem that if your name is in the Lamb’s book, its been there since the foundation of the world. And we also clearly see not every name is written there….indeed many a person…many a Jew…has passed on without knowing Christ.
So…I honestly have no idea what point you’re attempting to make.

.
On the flip side, the fullness of the Gentiles does not imply that every single person born over the last 1992 years will remain in the Lamb's book of life.

The metaphor of the olive tree is only symbolic. The Lamb's book of life is reality, and if one's name is removed, there is no grafting back in. Stick with your metaphor while it lasts. The Lamb's book of life is eternal.

Okay…two points: first, it’s not MY metaphor, it’s Paul’s.
Second: ‘remain in the Lamb’s book of life’..? We’ve been over this…either you’re in it from the foundation of the world, or you’re not.
The book of life idea, has no need to supersede or take over the tree metaphor. The book is talking about final salvation; who is there, who is not there.
The tree metaphor is for establishing how two peoples have become one, uniting under the promises God made to Abraham. And for demonstrating that Jewish individuals might be grafted back in. But even if this happens, they have not been ‘in the book’ then removed, only to be back in the book. If those who are to be saved is known AT the foundation of the world, their names have always been in the book. If it was known that they will NOT be saved, then their names were never in it…Jew or Gentile.

 

[Naomi25]

The 7th Seal is opened in the 8th chapter. Chapter 7 clearly shows the whole church in Paradise prior to that last Seal being opened. You can alter and explain away the book of Revelation any which way that suits you. I prefer to just take it as written.

Are you, perhaps, referring to this passage?

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Tell me…why should we assume that this ‘great multitude’ is not the saints already in heaven?
I mean…have we not had about 2000 years of ‘Saints’ who have died in Christ? I wonder what number they might be?

The fact is, this passage does not require us to understand it as ‘the church’ being raptured. Indeed, it only demands this interpretation when we force an already held doctrine onto it.
And if we take it ‘just as its written’, it does not mention the church or a rapture. It simply lists believers of every nation and tribe being there. Which their currently is….

 

[ewq1938]

7th SEAL, 7th seal opened and silence in heaven, after that the trumps start to sound.

7th TRUMP, great voices in heaven, He shall reign for ever and ever.” Time for judgments (vials) to start.

7th VIAL, 7th angel poured out his vial into the air, saying, “It is done”, This is when the great hail out of heaven falls unto them in a place called Armageddon, at that great day of God Almighty.

666 and 777, Bible Study, theseason.org

Jesus is depicted as coming in the 6th seal not the 7th. This is just Shepherd Chapel nonsense.

 

[Naomi25]

You mean the goats, right?

Nice catch..! I did, indeed, mean the goats…

.
This is what I find in disagreements over interpretations.

You understand there is something more behind these words, that declaring them righteous for their works is a demonstration of an existing faith, a saved state, so the works demonstrate their saving faith in Christ, and a new creation, and they are just like us.

I understand the words to mean exactly what they say, that Jesus declares righteouse those who had not been declared righteous because they did the right things.

There will come a verse where one of us says, we should understand it exactly as it reads, and the other says, no, we have to understand other passages prevent us from doing that.

Much love!

The tension here, I think, lies not just in ‘understanding the words to mean exactly what they say’…but in our ability to harmonise this passage with other passages in order that they do not contradict one another.
I assume you agree that is both good and necessary?
Because if I only take Matt 25 to be saying that salvation comes to these people through their works, then I invalidate everything Paul says about salvation coming through faith alone.
How we harmonise these texts is to say, like James, that Matt 25 speaks of fruit that proves salvation…not earns it.

 

[Naomi25]

The differences arise the same way as the question of the sheep/goats. The more I hold to the direct meaning of a passage, in any particular case, the more at odds I'll be with those who feel such isn't warranted. While I think Jesus is declaring them righteous because they did the right thing, someone else will say it's something different than that, because they take a more, I'm having a hard time thinking of a good word to use here, because they are more willing to allow other meanings than what is stated. And I don't say we never should. But we draw different lines.

For myself, when I come to a set of passages which seem at odds with each other, I just keep looking to see if there is an answer that makes sense to me that allows each to just say what it says. And again we come to, where do we draw the line?

Much love!

I….don’t know that this is simply a matter of ‘differences in interpretation’.
In order to allow your interpretation on several things, I must invalidate other direct passages. This cannot be a reasonable of righteous way to interpret scripture. Because both things cannot be true at the same time…not if we read them saying the opposite of one another.

May I ask…how do you harmonise the idea that salvation can…apparently…be only by faith…but also by works?

 

[Naomi25]

The Law ended, so you could no longer have your sins atoned. But you could come to God through Christ by faith.

But…even when law was still in place, before Christ, we know that Jews only remained ‘true Israel’..in other words, were justified…by faith in God’s promises. The law was always, and only, to point out ones sins and need for said Saviour. So, while the Jewish nation was called on to follow the law, it did not save them. Indeed, we see numerous examples of Jews who followed the laws and made sacrifice for sins, who are condemned by God or Jesus.

. And after Jesus comes, as He rules the earth with an iron rod, will people be asked to receive Him by faith? Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

Sorry…I don’t think I’m entirely getting what you say here. Are you suggesting that those who have seen Christ can’t come to him ‘through faith’ because faith is proof of something unseen?

If that is what you are saying, I must object. The Disciples ‘saw’…they were eye witnesses. And while Jesus told Thomas that those who did NOT see and still believed would be blessed, the Disciples all came to Christ through faith. Indeed, faith has been the key element since Abraham…why would we suppose that a future time…even if it is a ‘time of seeing’ once more, that faith no longer factored in?

.
Will there be something different happening then?

That is dispensationalism.

How it all works with the tree of Scripture is a separate matter.

Much love!

Well…I suppose that would be one reason why I am not a Dispensationalists.

 

[Naomi25]

Jews who don't believe are not counted among Israel, only believing Jews are Israel. Just the same, there is the "seed of Israel", the nation itself, to whom God made promises that will not be broken, including to prophecy the time of Jacob's trouble, but you will be saved out of it.

Deuteronomy 4:26-31 KJV
26) I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27) And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28) And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30) When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31) (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

See…I think the real difference between you and I, is this ‘seed of Israel’ notion. Look again at this passage:

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Paul is asking if God’s promises to Israel have failed, since so many Jews rejected Christ. His answer is no! The reason? Not all ‘Israel’ belongs to ‘Israel’. He’s saying that not all of those who are Jews by birth and blood, actually belong TO Israel. He goes on to emphasise this; not all who are Abrahams ‘offspring’ (by blood) are ‘children of Abraham’. Next, Paul tells us outright what this means: ‘this means that it is NOT the children of flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.’

This is remarkable. He tells us that anyone who is in Christ is a true child of Abraham…and that those who reject Christ…are not. Which means, of course, that the promises given to Abraham are given to his ‘true children’.
To insist other wise…that the ‘promises’ still belong to ‘those who are not offspring’ is to insist that every single Jewish person down throughout history is saved, automatically because of their blood connection to Abraham. We know this is just not the case. There are numerous passages in scripture that tell us that those of Jewish blood are NOT saved. That salvation…even for them, come through faith.
So while Rom 11 gives us the tantalising promise of many, many Jewish individuals coming to Christ in the last days, they must still come to Christ to be considered heirs of those promises to Abraham.

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The Redeemer shall come to Jacob . . .

But what happens if we read the rest of the passage, especially if we look at it through the light of Rom 9:6-8?

Isaiah 59:20-21
“And a Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.
“And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from this time forth and forevermore.”

First, we see that the Redeemer comes to ‘Jacob’…to those who turn from transgression. It’s still saying that Jews must repent and accept Christ.
We then see a reference to the ‘covenant’…not the covenant of law, but the one that would see God put ‘his Spirit upon you and my words in your mouth’. This is the New Covenant. He then directly ties the new covenant to the ‘offspring’. But we know from Paul’s explicit teaching that Abraham’s ‘offspring’ is regarded only as those in Christ.
Which means, if we take the NT at face value, the promises given to ‘Jacob’ in the OT are meant for folks…both Jews and Gentiles, who are in Christ.

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And all Israel shall be saved, that is, 2/3 will be destroyed, but 1/3 shall survive, and when they see Him, they shall mourn for Him.

The Jews said, Our father is Abraham, Paul says, that's not enough. Abraham had two sons, you must be the son of promise. And Isaac had 2 sons, you must be the son of Jacob.

Romans 9:26-33 KJV
26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28) For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29) And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

And not just the son of Jacob, but having sought righteousness by faith.

This identifies the Isreal of God, believing Jews. Paul continues here to contrast gentiles and Israel.

Not all Israel is saved, but all Israel shall be saved when Jesus returns. Those who survive.

Much love!

I’m…not sure this passage supports your view. When Paul, in V26, refers to ‘those who were not my people, I will call my people’…we see clearly echoed in 1 Peter as he speaks to numerous churches across the land, made up of both Jews and Gentiles:

1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

V27-29 outright tell us that there will only be a ‘remnant’ of ‘the sons of Israel’ who will ‘be saved’. This holds true to what we’ve seen play out in scripture, in regards to the faithfulness of Israel…as well as down throughout history. Not all Jews have had faith in Christ.

And V31-32 outright tells us why ‘National Israel’ did not find righteousness…because they attempted to attain it via law rather than faith.