The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

I believe the seals were opened very long ago.

Then I guess you are one who will not notice when they are opened.

 

[Timtofly]

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Revelation 1:19)

Past, present and future.

John was then both there physically at the Cross, while his future self was physically in Paradise at the same time in 30AD?

 

[Timtofly]

Im still trying to find out how someone believes there are 2 separate trees (Church and Israel) with the same holy root instead of 1 tree with 1 shepherd and 1 flock. I can’t find that scripture.

Two trees is not dispensational. The branch laying dead on the ground is dispensational.

Dispensational states Christ is the tree, not Israel. Israel was a branch cut off, that will be grafted back in at the Second Coming. The fulness of the Gentiles is a wild branch from another tree, that is grafted in and remains grafted in, but in Paradise, and no longer viable on the earth.

The church had one member at the beginning, Abel.

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

Israel as a branch grew naturally thousands of years after Abel lived as a church member. That is dispensational. It is an historical view how church members existed in Christ.

The Law of Moses was given to Israel from God. The law could not save any more than the fruit of the Spirit can save today. The law is just the outward works showing what the soul is willing to do in obedience to God. Same with being conformed to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Enoch,

That giant wall of text you posted, I realize you didn’t write it but you did post it. There’s plenty to comment on it, but here is one.

The writer said,
The Rapture will happen “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” “Moment” is the Greek atomos, from whence the word “atom” is derived. The Rapture will occur instantaneously. There will be no warning. There will be no opportunity to make further preparation. It is an event that must be prepared for beforehand by salvation and service (for reward).

The writer says the rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye…but is that what scripture says?

1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In this verse, the only thing that is raised in the blink of an eye is the resurrection of the dead. Yet in 1 Thess 4, it mentions the dead rise first. Those who are alive and remain are not raised with the dead simultaneously in the blink of an eye. They meet the dead, who are already in the air with Christ. That word, proton, means specifically first or first in order of. Let’s get it right and filter the sayings of man out of our minds so we have a clear understanding.

Not really.

The trumpet sound is the only thing attributed before the conjunction "and". If you do not allow those alive and remain to be included, neither can you include those already in Paradise.

In fact the verse before has what happens as being instantaneous:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

We all being changed is what happens in a twinkling of an eye.

So then Paul slows down and explains the change that instantly happened.

Who is this "we all"? What is this "change"?

 

[David H.]

John was then both there physically at the Cross, while his future self was physically in Paradise at the same time in 30AD?

What it means is that the visions John was shown from the time John Wrote revelation in 90AD involved some events that were past, some present, and future. Revelation to me is seven distinct visions, with different start points some in the Past like the seals and the church ages. No Need to insert parenthesis into the text.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Not really.

The trumpet sound is the only thing attributed before the conjunction "and". If you do not allow those alive and remain to be included, neither can you include those already in Paradise.

In fact the verse before has what happens as being instantaneous:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

We all being changed is what happens in a twinkling of an eye.

So then Paul slows down and explains the change that instantly happened.

Who is this "we all"? What is this "change"?

Have to disagree with you there. The context is all will be changed, but the twinkling of an eye, which is for the resurrection of the dead, is separate. Honestly, it’s important to interpret correctly but this issue isn’t one that should cause diversity.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

They are the first to rise. You can’t add “living” to scripture where it doesn’t exist. Nor should we think to add it to agree with our own interpretations.

 

[marks]

So…let me just ask this…do you really think process of elimination has led you to Pre-trib Rapture, or is it the other way around? What would it look like if you read the NT like you read the gospels and their witness…as one combined witness? What would it look like if you allowed genre and symbolism (in its correct place), used in both Revelation…plucked straight from the OT, and the OT, to speak for the truths they stood for…and didn’t try and shoe-horn them into Pre-trib Rapture?

Yes, I really do.

I've studied this literally for decades. I've adopted and held other views at times. You seem to be arguing in your post against a number of things I'm not saying.

What would it look like if you allowed genre and symbolism (in its correct place), used in both Revelation…plucked straight from the OT, and the OT, to speak for the truths they stood for…and didn’t try and shoe-horn them into Pre-trib Rapture?

But I guess you don't believe that of me. No worries! I've got more work to do at last! So I'll be spending the time on my job, thank You Lord!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just hear wah, wah, wah, like Charlie Browns teacher.

I think there's a lot of that going around!

:)

 

[No Pre-TB]

Then I guess you are one who will not notice when they are opened.

It won’t matter. Joel 2 tells us,

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Do you see that in Rev 3, 4 or 5? That’s a rhetorical question. Christ told us not to worry when we see these things. The end is not yet. They are birth pangs, not wrath. When is a women in labor ever thought of as wrath? The birth pangs are because of sin to bring people back to God aka Eve’s curse.

Logically, think about it somewhat. Understanding this has no effectual change from a Pre-TB rapture or any other theory really. You are treating the seals as the contents and they arnt. The seals keep the scroll sealed so no one may read it. Breaking the seals allows the owner to read the prerequisites before ownership. That is key! The seals function as something that is used to hold back that info. Breaking them allows things to move forward. This is another reason, among many, that the seals arnt wrath. Talk to any well educated lawyer about a seal on a document and they will explain it.

 

[marks]

5. The Rapture was taught to Paul “by the word of the Lord” (1 Th. 4:14).
It is divine revelation, and there is no other means by which man can know the future with certainty.
The Rapture is a mystery that was first revealed to Paul. The Rapture was not described in Old Testament prophecy (1 Co. 15:51-52), yet the second coming of Christ is described in much detail (e.g., Ps. 50:3-6; 96:13; 97:1-4; 98:9; 102:13-14; Isa. 26:21; 28:21-22; 30:27-30; 35:4; 40:10-11; 42:13-17; 59:16-20; 62:11; 63:1-6; 66:15-16; Jer. 25:30-33; Da. 7:9-14; Joe. 3:16; Mic. 1:3-4; Zec. 2:10-13; 8:3; 14:3-7; Mal. 3:1-5; 4:1-2).

This is so overlooked.

The church was a mystery, revealed through Paul. The rapture of the church was a mystery revealed through Paul. The living transformation of
some was a mystery, revealed through Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Musterion . . . something not able to be known withOUT being told. When Paul shows a mystery, he is giving information no one had before.

So then Isaiah 26 IS NOT the "rapture of the church", and neither did Jesus prophesy the rapture of the church, OR the living transformation of the believers, which is not what happens to the Israelites gathered when Jesus returns. The go on to have children, the transformed church does not.

A mystery. But many people act as if these were already prophesied, already revealed. But then they wouldn't still be a mystery.

We need to take every word seriously, even this one.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Enoch111,

Here’s another. The writer said,
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3).

He goes on to say that the word for heaven is identical to paradise. It really isn’t. Heaven is described as the outer atmosphere whereas paradise is a park or well watered garden. Two completely different Greek words and meanings. We are promised paradise, and regardless of what religious background someone has, we all agree with that. But where are we promised Heaven? We are promised to reign with Christ on earth, are we promised to reign in heaven?

Now, as far as Christ going to prepare a place. He isn’t going to heaven to prepare for us literal mansions. Christ spoke against lusts, excessiveness and gaudy behavior. The idea that God has many mansions implies there’s room for all. Christ does go to prepare a place for his people that where he is, we are too. And where is he going when he reigns? Earth.

Hebrews 11:13-14
We are strangers and pilgrims in earth seeking a country whose builder and maker is God. Christ is going to prepare a place for us.
1 Peter 1:17; 1 Peter 2:11; Psalms 39:12

Hebrews 11:16
A heavenly country, he prepares for us a city.

Revelation 21:2
The new Jerusalem coming out of heaven to earth.

Matthew 25:34
The messianic kingdom prepared for us

Hebrews 12:28
A city that cannot be removed

Hebrews 12:22
City of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem

John 14:3
Where Christ is, we will be too in Jerusalem

Hebrews 13:14
We seek a city of God

Christ does go to prepare a place for us, and that place is on earth wherein righteousness dwells. Not in heaven.

The point is that the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 years. Paradise is that heavenly city until then. They entered Paradise 1991 years ago. All have been entering since then. That stops at the Second Coming. During the Millennium the church is still in Paradise until the NHNE. No Scripture claims that after being in Paradise, one leaves to live on earth. Not until the city itself comes down from heaven can it be said they are on the earth. Even then, they still will not leave New Jerusalem. It is not a space ship bringing colonist to populate the earth. The population of Paradise remains forever in Paradise. There will just no longer be a separation between earth and Paradise after the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

What it means is that the visions John was shown from the time John Wrote revelation in 90AD involved some events that were past, some present, and future. Revelation to me is seven distinct visions, with different start points some in the Past like the seals and the church ages. No Need to insert parenthesis into the text.

I do not see parenthetical insertions into the text.

I do not see separate visions on separate occasions. I see John was physically transported by the Holy Spirit like Enoch or Philip. They were literally and physically caught up.

What you are saying is that over the course of time, John had 7 different visions? Each one starting at the Cross and ending at the NHNE or an arbitrary time of your chosen personal interpretation?

 

[marks]

Breaking the seals allows the owner to read the prerequisites before ownership.

Do you see the 7 sealed scroll as a scroll of ownership?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

Have to disagree with you there. The context is all will be changed, but the twinkling of an eye, which is for the resurrection of the dead, is separate. Honestly, it’s important to interpret correctly but this issue isn’t one that should cause diversity.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

They are the first to rise. You can’t add “living” to scripture where it doesn’t exist. Nor should we think to add it to agree with our own interpretations.

So who are changed? By your definition the dead are not changed at all. The dead are only resurrected. The resurrection is instant.

Later some are changed, but not instantly, and not the living nor the dead?

 

[Timtofly]

It won’t matter. Joel 2 tells us,

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Do you see that in Rev 3, 4 or 5? That’s a rhetorical question. Christ told us not to worry when we see these things. The end is not yet. They are birth pangs, not wrath. When is a women in labor ever thought of as wrath? The birth pangs are because of sin to bring people back to God aka Eve’s curse.

Logically, think about it somewhat. Understanding this has no effectual change from a Pre-TB rapture or any other theory really. You are treating the seals as the contents and they arnt. The seals keep the scroll sealed so no one may read it. Breaking the seals allows the owner to read the prerequisites before ownership. That is key! The seals function as something that is used to hold back that info. Breaking them allows things to move forward. This is another reason, among many, that the seals arnt wrath. Talk to any well educated lawyer about a seal on a document and they will explain it.

That the Seals do not themselves cause an event may be, however, each of the 4 beast still tells John to physically come and see an event on earth. John is looking down from Paradise. John is not only an eye witness, but an active participant with whomever he is interacting with, whom he does not name but gives a symbolic description of.

The event itself put into symbolic terms of alliterative horsemen.

That makes the event literal, John literal, and who John is with literal. While are the same time, the Lamb is just opening seals that have kept the Lamb's book of life sealed since before creation. Only after all seals are removed can names be removed from the Lamb's book of life. Even Moses knew back when he lived, no name could be blotted out, even if it were possible for his name to be removed to spare all his wicked brethren of Israel in the wilderness. Moses knew then about this Lamb's book of life.

 

[marks]

The writer says the rapture happens in a twinkling of an eye…but is that what scripture says?

1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In this verse, the only thing that is raised in the blink of an eye is the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We shall be changed in in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Heaven is described as the outer atmosphere

That's all "heaven" means?

Much love!

 

[No Pre-TB]

Do you see the 7 sealed scroll as a scroll of ownership?

Much love!

As a scroll of ownership, yes I do in a way. Christ was granted worthy to receive and open it. The scroll IMHO, is the the earth and it’s inhabitants. Meeting the prerequisites brings about the Kingdom.

 

[No Pre-TB]

That's all "heaven" means?

Much love!

Of course not, but I was giving a basic definition to the translation of the word “ouranos”. However, it is never described as a well watered park like Eden.

 

[Keraz]

So who are changed? By your definition the dead are not changed at all. The dead are only resurrected. The resurrection is instant.

Later some are changed, but not instantly, and not the living nor the dead?

Read what the scriptures actually say:
The people; who are everyone who has ever lived, will stand before God on His Great White Throne, are not resurrected back to mortal life, they are their souls, representative of each person.
But there will be some righteous living people at the end of the Millennium. As Paul says in 1 Cor 15:51, they will never die, but be changed instantly to immortality.
It all hinges on whose names are found in the Book of Life. Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 25:46