The Pre-Trib Rapture

[stunnedbygrace]

What's an assert?

read it again. Lol.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Pro beheadings? I am a Christian. We are to be self-controlled and walk in Christ likeness which is against violence.

Hey, at least you were gracious. I would have probably not even answered such a ridiculous question!

 

[Nancy]

Hi @Nancy I do think that the tribulations of Matthew 24 and John 16.33 are different.

Yes Farouk, I do also, thank you.

 

[David H.]

So when you say "the Olivet discourse problem", what do you mean?

It is the fact that Matthew 24:29 says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" we have the sixth seal and the rapture and the tribulation being pointed to is the Great tribulation.

for a more in depth explanation of this problem watch the video.

Are you saying no one will become believers during the 70th week?

There is a time (the sixth trumpet) when repentance is found no more,

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Revelation 9:20-21)

Then Chapter ten is the pronounced judgment (Little scroll) which is sweet in the mouth as the Mystery of God is fulfilled and the prophets and saints and faithful are rewarded, but bitter in the stomach for the Wrath of God begins (Revelation 11:18).

 

[Timtofly]

Some people have the view that the rapture of the church will be for those who have a certain level of holiness and/or righteousness in their thinking and behavior so as to be considered "worthy" to be taken in the Rapture, while those who fall below whatever their particular standard is are "left behind", to be "purified" from such things as rendered them "unworthy" by being given over to the beast in the great tribulation.

So some born again Christians are taken, and some born again Christians are left to be fixed by the trib.

I do not hold to this view. I believe when we are reborn, it is so by our being immersed into Christ, and we are, simply, in Christ. When this catching away comes, it will be for those who are "in Christ", regardless of our behavioral state at the time.

I've heard it put in terms of, "only those abiding in Christ", or other ways. I find that concept wholly contrary to the Gospel of grace and reconciliation in Jesus Christ.

Much love!

How many Christians got onto the ark?

Some time it just means one is not born in the right century for their mindset.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is the fact that Matthew 24:29 says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" we have the sixth seal and the rapture and the tribulation being pointed to is the Great tribulation.

for a more in depth explanation of this problem watch the video.

There is a time (the sixth trumpet) when repentance is found no more,

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Revelation 9:20-21)

Then Chapter ten is the pronounced judgment (Little scroll) which is sweet in the mouth as the Mystery of God is fulfilled and the prophets and saints and faithful are rewarded, but bitter in the stomach for the Wrath of God begins (Revelation 11:18).

I think I got the gist by listening for a few minutes…I guess I didn’t know people saw that verse as a rapture verse…if you think that’s a pretrib rapture verse I agree you have a problem.

 

[David H.]

So it looks to me that autous has some substantial foundation here.

But just the same, getting back to the point we were looking at, autous is referring to the witnesses themselves, while tis is "any", and "man" or "human" isn't specified. This doesn't have to do with manuscript issues as you can see above. It's the same in all these, even Wescott and Hort.

So the conclusion remains sound. The witnesses are not able to be harmed by "any". God does not create a conflict by giving one immunity from another, but giving the other power over the one. God doesn't make Himself a liar by granting the beast authority to make war and overcome everyone, but with a secret carve out.

And G2532 if any man G1536 G846 will G2309 hurt G91 them, G846

ei tis G1536 autos G846 Is the Phrase G5100 which means
τὶς tìs, tis; an enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object:—a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain (thing), divers, he (every) man, one (X thing), ought, + partly, some (man, -body, - thing, -what), (+ that no-)thing, what(-soever), × wherewith, whom(-soever), whose(-soever).

Which means it is inclusive of any of one type, but not as broad as "None". So no man can kill them but a fallen angel can since it is not of the same type.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, I'm referring to the TR. I don't myself recommend that you use the Vaticanus for your authority. Are you assuming I'm using an Alexandrian based version?

That is why i am asking you what version you get the word "None" from? Because this is an incorrect translation. All this verse is limiting from harming the two witnesses is "Men" and God remains true to His word by ALLOWING the fallen angel Abaddon to kill them.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria="any+man"&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria="out+of"&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria="any+man"&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria="in+this+manner"&t=KJV
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria="be+killed"&t=KJV

 

[David H.]

I think I got the gist by listening for a few minutes…I guess I didn’t know people saw that verse as a rapture verse…if you think that’s a pretrib rapture verse I agree you have a problem.

It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, then the Olivet discourse itself does not apply to end times and you might as well be a Preterist.

This question is the source of all the controversy and various eschatological positions out there. I Believe it is speaking of the rapture therefore my logical conclusion is to say we will go through the Great tribulation and the saints will face the onslaught of the beast, and be raptured before the Wrath of God. Many pretribbers say this is, but have to explain away verse 29.

 

[David H.]

Hi David,
@Lifelong_sinner has this only, one difference...his does NOT have a comma Waiting for him to notice it. :)

I Actually did notice the comma in there, but could not remember if @Lifelong_sinner had a comma or not, from what I remember he/she is a Calvinist. Reminds me of Jesus' words about one Jot or tittle.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So where does Jesus come from and how does He come? Which is it?
1. From Bozrah, with robes stained red from treading the wine press of wrath?
2. Suddenly, when least expected and people are partying and planning weddings and marrying?
3. Approaching on the clouds after His sign is seen in the sky, when every single eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, then the Olivet discourse itself does not apply to end times and you might as well be a Preterist.

This question is the source of all the controversy and various eschatological positions out there. I Believe it is speaking of the rapture therefore my logical conclusion is to say we will go through the Great tribulation and the saints will face the onslaught of the beast, and be raptured before the Wrath of God. Many pretribbers say this is, but have to explain away verse 29.

Im confused. Explain to me why that HAS to be a pretrib gathering verse?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

Pre-tribbers pull a scripture here and a scripture there, but no where does it speak of the difference between two raptures in one teaching; one before the 7 years Great Tribulation and the rest of the seals and trumpets, etc., and the one that is said to be AT the second coming. (That last one is the one I believe is the truth and the other a myth and misapplies the second coming rapture to a pre-trib. rapture because they confuse wrath with trials.)

cc: adding @stunnedbygrace (Hi)

 

[ewq1938]

What's an assert?

Essential Meaning of assert

1 : to state (something) in a strong and definite way

 

[Naomi25]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

With all due respect marks, I’m not sure I can agree with these ‘truths’.
There are many…many…reasons..why a person would come to ‘eliminate’ a Pre-trib Rapture as the only option left to us as they read scripture. And while reading scripture with a ‘symbolic’ eye may be one of those reasons, it is not the only reason, and it is not the reason you seem to suppose.

Let me give just one example of what I mean. When we read through the gospels, any proficient reader will know and understand that we are to combine the accounts. We do not look at the gospels…at the slightly different wording or the slight differences in accounts and say that they are describing different events all together. No, we understand both the function and the necessity of the differences. We see the same in both historical recounting and in such things as witness statements. Why? Because people tend to see and understand…to perceive things in different ways. But its still the same event. Likewise in the gospels, we see that many of the same events are being described in varying ways. As readers we combine the texts to create a fuller explanation of the event…to grow our understanding of what happened.

And yet…when it comes to Christ’s return…we don’t do this…or at least, Dispensationalists don’t do this…they separate. Why? Is there something particular in the text that demands we do this? Is there something fundamentally different between a text telling us that Christ returns in the clouds and Christ touches the earth? Must they be two separate returns, or might they be the one return that quite reasonable must first be coming down through the clouds to reach the earth? Where in scripture tells us we must separate these texts rather than combine them to gather a fuller understanding and picture of Christ’s return?

Indeed…I could add many other points that argue that with this one that we ought to consider the passages of Christ’s return a singular event. But I trust my point is made…it is not the ‘only’ logical conclusion to fall back on a Pre-trib rapture. Far from it.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

There is, I feel, much mis-information when it comes to interpreting scripture in the ‘literal vs symbolic’ manner.
On the one hand, those who claim a strong need to interpret all of scripture ‘literally’ seem to fall over their own hermeneutic. To take all of Revelation ‘literally’ boggles the mind. To take it ‘literally’ Christ needs to be both a slain lamb AND a lion…and also a boy child. Satan is a great dragon…literally, Israel is a woman…the antichrist is actually a beast. And somehow a physical chain will restrain the dragon.
Symbolism has a need and a place. And it is used often in scripture to portray important truths. We all know that when Revelation talks about the lion/lamb, that it is really Jesus. That the dragon is really Satan. We know the woman in the stars represents Israel, who gave birth to the male child (Jesus)…and that when Satan is restrained it will, most likely, not be by an iron chain but by the precepts of God…his Word is both life and death and to cast into hell…it is certainly enough to restrain.
My point is this…just because you hold to the idea that symbolism is used in places, does not mean you’ve embraced heresy.

Indeed, one could…and does, argue that embracing symbolism as scripture employs it quite deliberately, enables us to better understand the authors intent. We could also argue that understanding the author…and his intended audiences’, worldview, sets us up for a deeper and better appreciation for the text in question.

So…let me just ask this…do you really think process of elimination has led you to Pre-trib Rapture, or is it the other way around? What would it look like if you read the NT like you read the gospels and their witness…as one combined witness? What would it look like if you allowed genre and symbolism (in its correct place), used in both Revelation…plucked straight from the OT, and the OT, to speak for the truths they stood for…and didn’t try and shoe-horn them into Pre-trib Rapture?

I’ll grant you, Pre-trib rapture is the ‘most exciting’ system to follow. But for years I tried to make it fit scripture, and I just had to honestly give up…it would have been a lie, exegetically and hermeneutically.

 

[Timtofly]

I Agree with this part.



Again, this betrays simple grammar and reading of the text.... When Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" he is pointing to the great tribulation as this is the only other "tribulation" he speaks of in the Olivet discourse.

No, because the whole point about tribulation is this:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Do you refute that martyrdom has been ongoing for 1991 years? That it would get harder and harder, not easier and easier?

If you think the church is going to work hand in hand with the angels, why? The church is really going to remove souls from their physical bodies and send them to their eternal destination? That is the GT, when the angels gather the harvest. The church gathers a harvest year after year, but not like the angels will during the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[Timtofly]

I do believe as some pretribbers do that the first five seals are the church age, and we are awaiting the sixth to be opened and the rapture to occur, thus there is an "immanency" to the rapture, but Jesus is clear there are precursor events one of which is the great tribulation and the mark of the beast, and the abomination. 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation corroborate this timeline, not contradict it.

Except the 6th Seal is the sign of and Second Coming that Paul wrote about. That is the only time Christ as Prince arrives with all the angels for the final harvest.

Revelation 19 and Armageddon is not the same event as the 6th Seal. There is not a 7 year tribulation. There was a 1991 year great tribulation, for those mentioned in the 5th Seal. That is the tribulation of those days.

When the angels arrive, the GT will commence, but that time keeps getting shorter and shorter, the longer God withholds the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is the first event after the sign of the fig tree blooming. It is not the event just before the fig tree blooms. Because the fig tree already bloomed, and the countdown to the end already began. The Seals have been opening with really no one even paying attention. The Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders covered a 3.5 year period of the tribulation.

If the week of the 7th Trumpet, Daniel 9:27, gets split, it is the halfway point of a week of days, not a set of 7 years. Jesus Christ on earth already finished the first 3.5 years of the 70th week. The Seals, Trumpets and Thunders cover the last 3.5 years. So the week of the 7th Trumpet gets cut in half to allow the 42 months given to Satan, the last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet is the 3.5 days the two witnesses lay dead. The same 3.5 days the 7 vials are poured out on those left at the end of those same 42 months. That is why Daniel 9:27 is only days and not years. The first 3.5 days are celebration for the end of the final harvest. The week should end the same way, but cannot if there are those left on earth choosing to be beheaded. The 42 months are the gleanings, ie, those beheaded who endured and rejected Satan during the Trumpets and Thunders. But now in the last 42 months can no longer put off accepting the Atonement of the Cross. It is either the mark, or beheading.

If those beheaded are those gathered on the Sea of Glass, they should be accompanied by the sheep and wheat of the GT. These all are resurrected in Revelation 20:4, who then rule and reign for 1000 years, who cannot physically die again. They are the firstfruits meaning they will come back and have offspring. Because they fill the earth like Noah did after the Flood.

 

[David H.]

Im confused. Explain to me why that HAS to be a pretrib gathering verse?

Yes, I guess you did miss my point. If this chapter applies to Israel only, as some pretribbers do, then they cannot apply any of the Parables that follow to the rapture of the church, as they so often do (and from which they supprt their doctrine of Immanence). By denying the one they have to exclude all of it. UNLESS they say these are pointing to events in 70 ad which would then lead them to say the second coming has already occurred (preterism), or if they believe we are living in the millennial kingdom now (Amillennialism, Kingdom now) views. Where you apply this passage largely determines your eschatology, but the pretribbers pick and choose what they want out of context, saying verse 31 is the rapture, while ignoring verse 29 or explaining it away or as the video stated, trying to say it is speaking of Armageddon.

My personal view is that all the questions the apostles asked are answered by Jesus, and that parts are referring to 70 ad as my view is that the first five seals were opened in the first century, the fifth seal being opened with the Martyrdom of Stephen (the first martyr) and this is ongoing until this day and will be accelerated in the Great tribulation until the fulness of the gentiles is reached. With this understanding, I see that the pre tribbers are right in that the next seal to be opened is the sixth which is what Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to but also know the Great tribulation must precede this which includes the mark of the beast etc. Thus if you want to put a label on what my eschatology is, I am a pre-wrather/ mid tribber, but I Am diverse from that camp in a lot of my views. Unlike the video I believe the Great tribulation is the first half of the week, the second half being the day of the Lord and His wrath.

 

[David H.]

Do you refute that martyrdom has been ongoing for 1991 years? That it would get harder and harder, not easier and easier?

No i do not, and if you read my comment above to @stunnedbygrace you will see I believe the fifth seal was opened with the first Martyr Stephen thus the sixth seal is next (I got that from a very pretribber by the way). What i am saying is we will have to deal with the great tribulation as this precedes the sixth seal.

 

[David H.]

Except the 6th Seal is the sign of and Second Coming that Paul wrote about. That is the only time Christ as Prince arrives with all the angels for the final harvest.

Revelation 19 and Armageddon is not the same event as the 6th Seal. There is not a 7 year tribulation. There was a 1991 year great tribulation, for those mentioned in the 5th Seal. That is the tribulation of those days.

When the angels arrive, the GT will commence, but that time keeps getting shorter and shorter, the longer God withholds the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is the first event after the sign of the fig tree blooming. It is not the event just before the fig tree blooms. Because the fig tree already bloomed, and the countdown to the end already began. The Seals have been opening with really no one even paying attention. The Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders covered a 3.5 year period of the tribulation.

If the week of the 7th Trumpet, Daniel 9:27, gets split, it is the halfway point of a week of days, not a set of 7 years. Jesus Christ on earth already finished the first 3.5 years of the 70th week. The Seals, Trumpets and Thunders cover the last 3.5 years. So the week of the 7th Trumpet gets cut in half to allow the 42 months given to Satan, the last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet is the 3.5 days the two witnesses lay dead. The same 3.5 days the 7 vials are poured out on those left at the end of those same 42 months. That is why Daniel 9:27 is only days and not years. The first 3.5 days are celebration for the end of the final harvest. The week should end the same way, but cannot if there are those left on earth choosing to be beheaded. The 42 months are the gleanings, ie, those beheaded who endured and rejected Satan during the Trumpets and Thunders. But now in the last 42 months can no longer put off accepting the Atonement of the Cross. It is either the mark, or beheading.

If those beheaded are those gathered on the Sea of Glass, they should be accompanied by the sheep and wheat of the GT. These all are resurrected in Revelation 20:4, who then rule and reign for 1000 years, who cannot physically die again. They are the firstfruits meaning they will come back and have offspring. Because they fill the earth like Noah did after the Flood.

Why are you so afraid of the wrath of the devil, all he can do is kill your body?

As for Daniel 9:27, it can be translated both as midst of the week,(KJV, RSV) and for half of the week (ESV, NLT). Either way is right grammatically with the text.

 

[David H.]

As for Daniel 9:27, it can be translated both as midst of the week,(KJV, RSV) and for half of the week (ESV, NLT). Either way is right grammatically with the text.

By the way @Timtofly the latter would be in line with the olivet discourse which says the end begins with the abomination of desolation (verse 14) as well as 2 Thessalonians 2 which says the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin occur before the rapture.