The Pre-Trib Rapture

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stunnedbygrace

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Sorry, but I have to laugh at your Biblical ignorance and your heeding men instead of studying God's Word for yourself.

Did you not know that at the end of Luke 17, Jesus showed to be left-behind is a GOOD thing, because it means NOT being gathered to where the fowls will be? You obviously never read that Scripture for yourself...

Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

KJV

Matt 24:28
28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

KJV

Those pre-trib rapture preachers teaching such falseness that to be the first one taken is to escape by Christ ought to make you truly angry after you read Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples that asked "Where, Lord?" those first ones would be taken to!

Jesus showed those 1st ones taken are like a dead "carcase" gathered wheresover the fowls are gathered, to do what? To feast on dead carcases! That's the fate of the 1st ones taken per Jesus.

The word translated “taken” is paralombotenai. Here is its definition:
Definition
  1. to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
    1. an associate, a companion
    2. metaph.
      1. to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
      2. not to reject, not to withhold obedience
  2. to receive something transmitted
    1. an office to be discharged
    2. to receive with the mind
      1. by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the tradition proceeds
      2. by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers (used of disciples)
 
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Keraz

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Could it be that some portion of those left behind is because they need more sifting/testing to come out pure and that some of them become the tribulation saints?
This is correct, as we are told in Revelation 12, where there will be a group of Christians who kept faithful during the fiery test to come. 1 Peter 4:12, who will be taken to a distant place of safety. The other Christians must remain in the holy Land. Rev 12:17
We see the two groups also, in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2
 

Taken

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Love how you write Taken, you use only the words needed to get your point across!
"Some times called “frustration” ?" HA is right...MOSTLY called frustration in my world :D LIFE itself is frustration but, don't always respond the correct way...working on that ALL THE TIME.

Frustration is that funky thing...someone says something so absurd ... do you want to show them it’s absurd...and listen to their absurd reasoning...or let it go? And then the deal with getting frustrated over “things”. My poor dog, has to listen to me “ scold a thing “, because it doesn’t work properly, lol. And the seasons God Made? Spend all winter bundled up, eating all those yummy baked goods, till spring rolls around and your lightweight clothes are too snug.
LOL. Who needs an amusement park...we live on Life’s rollercoaster...:p
We can enjoy the ride and laugh or complain. Seems though it is easier to laugh AFTER the fact. :)
 
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Taken

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This is correct, as we are told in Revelation 12, where there will be a group of Christians who kept faithful during the fiery test to come. 1 Peter 4:12, who will be taken to a distant place of safety. The other Christians must remain in the holy Land. Rev 12:17
We see the two groups also, in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2

Christians....? Not mentioned.
 

Nancy

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Frustration is that funky thing...someone says something so absurd ... do you want to show them it’s absurd...and listen to their absurd reasoning...or let it go? And then the deal with getting frustrated over “things”. My poor dog, has to listen to me “ scold a thing “, because it doesn’t work properly, lol. And the seasons God Made? Spend all winter bundled up, eating all those yummy baked goods, till spring rolls around and your lightweight clothes are too snug.
LOL. Who needs an amusement park...we live on Life’s rollercoaster...:p
We can enjoy the ride and laugh or complain. Seems though it is easier to laugh AFTER the fact. :)

Rollercoaster is right, life comes at us like a freight train out of control! And it is in the "how do you respond" that can get ya!
Yeah, my poor dogs have to listen to me yell AND break inanimate objects all the time :eek: . Work in constant progress...want to be counted worthy when He comes, not throwing a fit at "things" :oops:
 

stunnedbygrace

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In the Bible, tempting and testing are both used to translate the same word, peirasmos.

Hmm…I look at satan as the tempter (God tempts no one to do wrongly) and God as a tester (of metals).
 

stunnedbygrace

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Rollercoaster is right, life comes at us like a freight train out of control! And it is in the "how do you respond" that can get ya!
Yeah, my poor dogs have to listen to me yell AND break inanimate objects all the time :eek: . Work in constant progress...want to be counted worthy when He comes, not throwing a fit at "things" :oops:

The way to it is to keep trusting. He knows what He’s doing.
 
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marks

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Hmm…I look at satan as the tempter (God tempts no one to do wrongly) and God as a tester (of metals).
I see this as that God allows a situation, whatever it's source, whether from our flesh, or from the devil, or the allurements of the world.

If we are entertaining fleshy thoughts, this is temptation, not that God is tempting us to sin, rather, God is providing opportunity for us to choose wisely, and in so doing, become just a little bit more like Him. So if we are standing fast in the spirit, and not yielding to what the flesh or the world or the devil wants or offers, we are passing the test.

Peter talks about proving of our faith by the fiery trial.

Peirasmos a steel bar. Hit it with something hard. If it's weak, it breaks, if it's strong, it doesn't.

Much love!
 

Taken

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By protection, NOT removal. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, +

Your Natural Body is going to go THROUGH the Great Tribulation with Protection? How is your Natural Body not destroyed during earth quakes, army bullets?

Why, What exactly is YOUR PURPOSE to be ON Earth during the Great Tribulation?
 

ScottA

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Scott, I have a question I'd like to ask so I can know how you see this.

How does this age end? How does the age of the eternal state of righteousness begin? Do you know what I'm asking? I talk about a return of Christ, gathering of Israel, 1000 year kingdom, then dissolution of this world, this age, resurrection and judgment, and a new creation, where there is only righteousness.

What do you see? That transistions from a corrupt creation to a new creation?

Much love!
To understand...the scriptures must be rightly divided between what is of this world...and...what is of the kingdom. The kingdom "is not of this world", but much of the New Testament is.

We should also consider, that all those things of prophecy somewhat appear to overlay the times of the gentiles--meaning they are seemingly spread out over or have a "gap" between where things left off with Jesus' first coming, and His second coming. That, again, is only a "gap" in understanding. But the issue of it all being spread out over the times of the gentiles, is indeed a stumbling block clouding the affairs of Israel and her promises from God, with every other nation on earth and that "other fold" (involving the gentiles) that Christ "must also bring."

But it would appear that you are asking about what I see as a timeline regarding the end. That is one perspective (that of this world), and yes, we live here, so it is not a non-issue. It is just that those things that are not on that timeline, but of the kingdom of God and are timeless, and must be clearly divided from those things of this world, including much of the times of the gentiles.

Okay.

Jesus is "the Beginning and the End." In this application, He is the Beginning of those born again of the spirit of God. He is "the firstfruits" of the Spirit of God, the first of "many sons." He is also the End of the chosen of Israel. That makes up the two separate groups or "folds" which Christ "must bring" to God the Father. These are those "in Christ" whom He delivers to the Father: Israel, whom died before the cross and the payment was made for the sins of the world, also referred to in the scriptures as "the dead in Christ." Also included "in Christ" are "the living in Christ" whom the apostle Paul referred to as "those who are alive and remain", meaning alive by the spirit of God having been born again, but remaining in the world to be brought to the Father after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled/completed. There is much more that could be said regarding all that pertains to these, even now--because it is written. But only after the end will we be able to look back on these times as we do the times of Israel, about which many are still confused.

This dividing line between Israel and the gentiles (which must be clearly divided in the scriptures), Jesus also spoke of, saying, "But many who are first [Israel] will be last, and the last [the gentiles] first." Meaning, Israel came first, but would be born of the Spirit last, while the gentiles who come last, would be first to be born of the Spirit. This is the dividing line between the two narratives given in the gospel, all prophecies, and all of scripture: "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

Christ, therefore, is that dividing line, and the apex of all that is written. Thus He said, "the kingdom of God has come upon you."

As this pertains to your questions: Christ is the End, the end of Israel and "the dead in Christ", as well as the End of all who are born [again] of the Spirit, which Paul clarifies, saying, "Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies." So then, Israel died in their sins in the flesh, but those born first of the spirit of God, die--but die to sin and death, but are "alive to God." Therefore it is written that Christ died "once for all." Properly divided, this is to say, "It is finished" with God, even though it is not finished with the times of the gentiles. Just as all of Israel did not enter the world together, but "each in his own order", they were saved together "in Christ." Likewise, but in reverse order, all gentiles do not come into the world together, nor do they leave or does Christ come to them together, but "each in his own order", "in Christ." Meaning, all who are born of the Spirit, "were" saved and raised up "first" with Christ. All of which is not exactly according to the times of this world, but to God.

In other words, that was the End, but it comes to each of the gentiles born again of the Spirit "each in his own order", until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. In keeping with those things, those events which are not so much of this world, but of God...God has already gathered together Israel, and Christ has over come the world--this is that thousand year reign. But remember as Peter gently, but not fully eluded to, a thousand years is not so to God, nor is it even "a day" as men think of a day--but is forever, having one evening and one morning, after which there is "no shadow of turning."

Then comes the end regarding the old earth, and the coming of the new heavens and new earth. Such is the end of the age.

As for the second coming of Christ, as it is written--only this: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." Meaning (apart from sin) only in the spirit born again of God--this is salvation..."each in his own order."
 
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Taken

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Rollercoaster is right, life comes at us like a freight train out of control! And it is in the "how do you respond" that can get ya!
Yeah, my poor dogs have to listen to me yell AND break inanimate objects all the time :eek: . Work in constant progress...want to be counted worthy when He comes, not throwing a fit at "things" :oops:

Actually, in person, I am rather soft spoken, and not politically correct, never been a politician, lol, so when typing do use ALL CAPS to emphasize rather than yelling. By the way, already saved, you are prepared, and go to meet Him “Lord” (risen in perfection)...Earthly things, done away, irrelevant.
When He “Son of man”...”returns”, you come with Him.
 
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Taken

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Revelation 12:17 ...those who keep the Commandments and maintain their witness to Jesus.

Obviously the group taken to safety are also Christians; the ones who don't need any further testing.

Taken to safety Where? When?
 

marks

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But remember as Peter gently, but not fully eluded to, a thousand years is not so to God, nor is it even "a day" as men think of a day--but is forever, having one evening and one morning, after which there is "no shadow of turning."

Yes, this is a good thing to think on, a day as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day, but because both are nothing to Him.

Again, of course, I want more time to read and digest, but your post fills out much more Jesus' declaration "It is finished".

Much love!
 
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Keraz

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Your Natural Body is going to go THROUGH the Great Tribulation with Protection? How is your Natural Body not destroyed during earth quakes, army bullets?

Why, What exactly is YOUR PURPOSE to be ON Earth during the Great Tribulation?
God's Purpose is to test us. 1 Peter 4:12
Our task is to keep strong in our faith and to continue to be His witnesses and the Light to the nations.
The cruncher is the verses which say: We must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, 2 Cor 10:13
Taken to safety Where? When?
To a place far away on earth, where Satan's army can't get to. Revelation 12:14-16
When? Exactly 1260 days before Jesus Returns.
 
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ScottA

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There is one criteria given to show inclusion in this catching away,

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive, remaining, will be caught up with them. We who? We in Christ. The dead in Christ rise first, the living in Christ are caught up to join them.

If you are "in Christ", this is you. If you are not "in Christ" this is not you.

Who are they that are "in Christ"?

Much love!
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 breaks down a would-be timeline as things would appear to occur in this world--but is in fact accomplished in one act by Christ.

This is why Paul instructed that we rightly divide the word of truth...because what was written for those in need of such a worldly narrative and explanation, was not to be confused with the what, how, or when, things all occurred within the eternal halls of God.

Why is that important?

Because what, where, and when God has done all that He has done for those who died before the coming of Christ, He has done differently than those afterward. Meaning there are many things that they were to follow before, that are different from what we are to follow after. For this very reason Christ washed His apostles' feet-- because those who came before He had not washed, but those who come after, He does.

The darkness and the light are not to be mixed--but divided.

Thank you Jesus!
 
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marks

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This is why Paul instructed that we rightly divide the word of truth...because what was written for those in need of such a worldly narrative and explanation, was not to be confused with the what, how, or when, things all occurred within the eternal halls of God.
Suddenly I feel very much on the same page with you. You always seem to be good for me, helping maintain that heavenly realm focus.

Much love!
 
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Marty fox

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To tell us that numbers of people aren't that? What if they were, How would God say it?

If God were to seal 144,000 people, and wanted to tell us that, how would He do that? What would He be able to say to you so that you would know that's what He meant?

Much love!

There are many times in the bible that numbers aren't literal but meaning many.

If it said actual people or males or females.

Its the message of the text that counts all it does is call them servants of the Lamb and that they are sealed with Gods protection from His wrath. It doesn't say anything about them no special purpose for them just that they are His servants and they are standing in front of the throne in heaven. So why would they only be protected why not the other Christians in the world?

Just like John heard "here is the lion of the tribe of Judah" and then he turned and saw the slain Lamb John also heard of the 144 000 he then saw the great uncountable multitude of every tribe people language and nation.
 

marks

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There are many times in the bible that numbers aren't literal but meaning many.
This one is literal. What evidence is there otherwise? That it can be fit into a pattern? We can do that with a great many, maybe all numbers, can't we?

There are places that we know from the context are speaking of a unnumbered multitude.

Jesus was 3 days in the heart of the earth, and 144,000 Jews will be sealed.

The 7 blighted heads of grain meant 7 years, but it was an actual 7 years. And without something in the Bible to tell me otherwise, why should I not just believe the simplicity of what it says? Isn't that what having Scriptural authority means?

Much love!