Church Bashing

[marks]

I suggest you look at ALL the verses, not just that one.

As I've been doing quite a number of years, but I don't mind going one by one with you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, it isn’t plainly written in scripture.

It most certainly is.

I'll just post the whole passage,

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These two words in vs. 46, "everlasting" and "eternal" are both translated from aionos, and should read the same, "into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life".

Tell me, which part doesn't mean what it seems to be saying? I'd like to follow this through to the end with you, about what exactly is this passage telling us?

And then to look at other passages, to find the harmony if there seems to be conflict.

Much love!

 

[FHII]

In the context of the local church, it's the Lord Jesus Who is the Head, not a preacher (1 Cor. 11). Continuing steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine (Acts 2.42) does not depend on one man, imho.

That is absolutely false, farouk. In context of the local church he gave gifts unto men. And the gifts he gave were Apostles, prophets, evengelists, pastors and teachers. These were given so that the saints could be perfected.

Overall, yes Christ is the head of the church, but he set men over it in his place.

 

[Wrangler]

In all the churches I tried, they all taught freewill and eternal torment of unbelievers

I’m not sure why you are invoking a doctrinal purity test as an obstacle to fellowship with living, breathing siblings in Christ.

I am CERTAIN no church I ever went to had 100% doctrinal alignment. How did I respond to this reality? I forgave and loved them anyway.

Make a Blessed Day!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It most certainly is.

I'll just post the whole passage,

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These two words in vs. 46, "everlasting" and "eternal" are both translated from aionos, and should read the same, "into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life".

Tell me, which part doesn't mean what it seems to be saying? I'd like to follow this through to the end with you, about what exactly is this passage telling us?

And then to look at other passages, to find the harmony if there seems to be conflict.

Much love!

It all means what it’s saying, but you are saying and thinking that human flesh and blood could survive that because human flesh and blood is born with eternal life in it. It is not. If it was born eternal, Jesus would not have said, let the dead bury their own dead. He called a dead man dead and he called the living men that buried him dead. Because they had no eternal life in them.

But if a man has Gods Spirit in him, even though he dies, he will live eternally.

 

[marks]

That is absolutely false, farouk. In context of the local church he gave gifts unto men. And the gifts he gave were Apostles, prophets, evengelists, pastors and teachers. These were given so that the saints could be perfected.

Overall, yes Christ is the head of the church, but he set men over it in his place.

How many of us have really known truly Godly pastors?

I've known a number of churches that have "made allowances" concerning the qualifications of elders and overseers and deacons.

My last pastor, who died from a stroke over a year ago now, was an amazing man of love, with a Godly family, and a Spirit led church. And it really was Spirit led! He made those allowances, sometimes, but always, always, something would happen to correct our course, and quickly. And the body was filled with love, everyone there knew it. I'm so sad he's gone! But I know I have the same mission, to be that same man of love.

I can see not sitting under bad teaching, but that can be harder to detect. Jesus said it's by their fruit you know them.

Some false teachers seem really holy, really mystical, but, I've seen on this forum one who badgered another member (one of the nice ones) into some abruptness of speech . . . I mean literally innuendo after innuendo after innuendo (his oft method) until this person broke down on a post. What he said wasn't even that much. And he was remorseful over it, but not that fellow who did it, he gloated over it. Hounding someone until they falter, then glorying in it! And that's a repeat behavior. That's fruit. That's a false teacher.

But if this is all one knows, and has never known a truly Godly shepherd, then I wouldn't wonder that they don't feel the loss the way I do.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Who have I hated…? That’s the problem, saying I won’t sit and listen to a man doing harm to others is not hating him…

My apologies. I was just using an example in response to your question about using "him."

Understanding the situation better, it seems to me to be less about you being hateful and more about you not forgiving. Have you even told the Pastor how strongly you oppose the points he makes?

No one on Earth is perfect. I don't think it is wise to contort the principle of the 99 and 1 sheep. A Christ follower who is 1% or even 10% bad is not our enemy, especially when that is due to wrong doctrine.

I pray you pray for him and for yourself. (I have a story that I'd like your thoughts on and hope to create a new thread this week).

 

[marks]

It all means what it’s saying, but you are saying and thinking that human flesh and blood could survive that because human flesh and blood is born with eternal life in it.

No, I'm not. Like I said before, you apparently don't understand my thinking sufficiently to speak for me. I've never said people are born with eternal life. Eternal life is relationship with God, and men are born dead, separated because of sin. Mankind is separated from God because of sin, born dead, and remaining dead, unless God raises them to life, by immersing them into Christ in His death and burial and resurrection, at which time they are eternally alive in Christ. No longer born from Adam, now a person who was born from God.

I'm saying that when the Bible says, "eternal torment", that's what it means. That these who are sent will be in torment, and that everlasting, which is exactly what Jesus says there.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, I'm not. Like I said before, you apparently don't understand my thinking sufficiently to speak for me. I've never said people are born with eternal life. Eternal life is relationship with God, and men are born dead, separated because of sin. Mankind is separated from God because of sin, born dead, and remaining dead, unless God raises them to life, by immersing them into Christ in His death and burial and resurrection, at which time they are eternally alive in Christ.

I'm saying that when the Bible says, "eternal torment", that's what it means. That these who are sent will be in torment, and that everlasting, which is exactly what Jesus says there.

Much love!

Yes, you are saying it, because for them to be tortured forever would mean they have to live forever.

 

[FHII]

I do have a Shepherd. And I listen to Him and so when I hear someone teaching Freewill and Eternal Torment of Unbelievers, why would I call them my shepherd? Shepherds don’t give things to a flock that harms them, only hired hands do that.
And actually, I do have a gathering but had to leave for a time and at various times since then, I’ve thought my heart would just break over having to do so and I greatly desire to get back to them but am waiting because it’s what I’m supposed to do for now.

I am not responding to this post solely, but to all you've said.

Stunned, I wish you peace and hope you find it. But I don't believe you have. A man of God and a Church is where you can run to in times of trouble. It is a refuge. But you seem to be running away from it.

If that is the case, I wish you well and hope you find peace. But in the mean time, please don't claim your situation and dilemmas are the same for every one. I have a loving Church and a great Pastor. So instead of all the doom and gloom, maybe you should ask how to find one.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Understanding the situation better, it seems to me to be less about you being hateful and more about you not forgiving. Have you even told the Pastor how strongly you oppose the points he makes?

No, I didn’t. Should I have stood up and started arguing? Asked him for a meeting? I wouldn’t have even known back then how to explain that he was wrong. I just fled. But I’ve seen quite a few pastors in here who show me that he wouldn’t have listened to me anyway. I’ve found no way to get men to spit leaven out once they’ve swallowed it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am not responding to this post solely, but to all you've said.

Stunned, I wish you peace and hope you find it. But I don't believe you have. A man of God and a Church is where you can run to in times of trouble. It is a refuge. But you seem to be running away from it.

If that is the case, I wish you well and hope you find peace. But in the mean time, please don't claim your situation and dilemmas are the same for every one. I have a loving Church and a great Pastor. So instead of all the doom and gloom, maybe you should ask how to find one.

There isn’t one. They all teach harmful things. There isn’t one near me. I tried. A lot. There’s no church left near me to try that doesn’t teach these harmful things. There just isn’t.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am not responding to this post solely, but to all you've said.

Stunned, I wish you peace and hope you find it. But I don't believe you have. A man of God and a Church is where you can run to in times of trouble. It is a refuge. But you seem to be running away from it.

If that is the case, I wish you well and hope you find peace. But in the mean time, please don't claim your situation and dilemmas are the same for every one. I have a loving Church and a great Pastor. So instead of all the doom and gloom, maybe you should ask how to find one.

Im not claiming your situations and dilemmas are mine. But I do think one would be hard pressed to find a gathering that doesn’t teach those leavens. They are too embedded.

 

[marks]

Yes, you are saying it, because for them to be tortured forever would mean they have to live forever.

They are not alive. They are dead. They have to be dead forever, I think is what you mean. I've learned to think in the Biblical terminology, and that helps to understand all the passages. They make sense all together when you form your thoughts the way the Bible forms thoughts.

Technically speaking, your argument is not about "eternal life". The unrighteous do not have eternal life. But then you have to define "eternal life" the way the Bible does. It's not a thing you have, like durable shoes. It's Who you are with, the One Who is alone immortal. We are clothed with Him, Who is transforming us into Christ's image.

And apparently to be apart from that is torment.

Your argument is about the durability of dead Mankind, is there something that is not destroyed in the eternal flames? I say, from my reading, yes there is, you say no there is not. I would point out that there is something that remains after physical death, as the person is separated from their body. Is there something that remains after one is separated from their soul?

Something underneath, that's never been able to deny God's reality, something that will forever know the horror of what has come? In the ancient Hebrew's thinking, "the worm".

Much love!

 

[FHII]

There isn’t one. They all teach harmful things. There isn’t one near me. I tried. A lot. There’s no church left near me to try that doesn’t teach these harmful things. There just isn’t.

Like I said... I hope you find peace. To add to that, I hope you find a church that believes the same thing as you do...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And apparently to be apart from that is torment.

At least you’ve added “apparently.” That’s hopeful.

 

[marks]

At least you’ve added “apparently.” That’s hopeful.

That's in reference to "second death" being "separation from one's soul", in the same way that physical death is separation from the body, because that's merely a speculative idea.

I think hope would be found in believing what Jesus said.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is there something that remains after one is separated from their soul?

A soul is a living, breathing, thinking, feeling body.
Men’s living, breathing, thinking, feeling bodies will be raised to life again for judgement.
If men are not living and breathing and thinking, they are then a dead soul.
Men don’t have a soul. They are a soul. The body is a container wherein resides their will, thoughts and emotions. Taken together, they are a soul.
Don’t fear men who can kill your body, fear God who can destroy both body and soul.

In my opinion, based on what I’ve read.

 

[BarneyFife]

I've heard enough generalized church bashing to last the rest of my life.

God tells us that if we create division in the body of Christ, be warned, if you destroy God's temple, He will destroy you.

Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But how many have a heard declare, "Western Christianity is a failure", "the church has become corrupt", on and on it goes.

Well, I have a couple of responses. First of which, if this is your experience, find a new church to attend! Seek until you find faithful believers. They are there. God will lead you to them.

Secondly, how in the world do you know what my church is like? Simple answer. You don't. So why make out like it's all so rotten? Does that make you feel better to sit over all of Christendom in judgment? Think about it.

And thirdly, who are you helping in telling everyone there isn't any good church anywhere? Why not be good church?

OK, I could go on, but, rant over.

Much love!

You certainly have a right to express your opinions about how church warning and discipline should or should not take place.

Unfortunately, the Holy Spirit, through the Bible, does some general church-bashing throughout Revelation 2 and Revelation 3.

Also, the church in the Old Testament was constantly testing God's patience, and He did not hold back His disapproval of it.

So, unless all Scripture is indeed not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, itching ears are likely to keep on itching in a format like this.

Conversely, those who want to be critical will have ample support and opportunity to do so.

In truth, a balance of mercy and justice would be the ideal in a follower of Christ.

(Again) unfortunately, individual Christians rarely exhibit this kind of excellence of character. It takes a degree of consecration that most folks aren't willing to strive for. :)

 

[Wrangler]

I’ve found no way to get men to spit leaven out once they’ve swallowed it.

Well, there is the hatefulness others have noticed. Do women ‘spit leaven out once they’ve swallowed it?’

What does that expression even mean?

You seem to have pre-determined that there is no way to resolve conflict with, dare I say it? These men?

I pray God’s spirit bring you peace.