Church Bashing

[stunnedbygrace]

Laugh all you want, but that doesn't change my countless observations of this truth in action. Disagreements in the Bible, in my experience, arise because someone changes the meanings of words in order to make a passage fit their view, rather than changing their understandings of those words to fit the Scripture.

You still are seeming to hold to a faulting understanding of death, and laughing when things don't fit it.

Much love!

If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking.

 

[marks]

Hah! Or like…no, death does not mean death but rather eternal existence?

What is death? Your understanding of what death is needs to make sense in the places it appears.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What is death?

Much love!

The opposite of life.

 

[marks]

If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking.

Yes, thankfully, all who lack wisdom may ask, and if you believe Him, He will supply you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The opposite of life.

Yeah. Nevermind.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah. Nevermind.

Much love!

lol! Black is opposite of white. Happy is opposite of sad. Life is opposite of death.

 

[marks]

John 17:3 LITV
3) And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

 

[Nancy]

Not you!

Ha.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Maybe it is that they started to age the day they tool of the tree. Kind of like when thorns, and thistles, and weeds started sprouting where there were none before.
I am not up on the "second death" but, sure does not sound good!

Isaiah 66:24
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

You spoke earlier of this passage Marks, It seems the worms that eat the dead bodies never die, and the fire is never quenched. Don't see anything about "souls" in the belly's of the worms...? And, once they are eaten by the worms...are they not poof, gone?

The outer darkness is something I had asked about a few years back and STILL have not heard a good description. It sounds terrible and, it would be totally separated from Gods goodness...forever...? Talk about being UTTERLY alone!

Just hard to piece together these things and, I'm not solid on any of it. But, either way, Love God (obey) and love others as self. :) It's all we really need to do. But it IS SO INTERESTING!

Im not completely solid on it all either. I see it, then lose it and become confused, then see it again.
Sort of like one of those pictures you see as dark ink on a white page and you have to see it as white ink on a dark page to see a completely different picture.

 

[Nancy]

Im not completely solid on it all either. I see it, then lose it and become confused, then see it again.
Sort of like one of those pictures you see as dark ink on a white page and you have to see it as white ink on a dark page to see a completely different picture.

Yes, just out of reach...so close then it moves away only to start becoming clearer...then back on the shelf with the elf.

 

[marks]

Four rivers . . . four soils, only one leads to life, drying up in this world. The others continue to flow into the world.

One river flows from the temple with eternal life.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

Death is not cessation of activity or existence, death is separation.

Spiritual death is separation from God, while remaining active in a body. Physical death is separation from that body, while remaining a soul. Second death is the lake of fire.

The ancient Hebrews understood that the "worm" in Isaiah 66, the worm dieth not, that the worm is what remains of the soul of a man whom God has destroyed.

I don't see the comfort of annihilation available to the wicked.

Much love!

@stunnedbygrace

Yes, I also believe that the worm could refer to the personal soul of the condemned in hell, and it dies not.
But even if the 'worm' is a maggot, it continues to feed for eternity on the dead, meaning the dead are not consumed.
So there is a continual burning, and a continual feeding on the souls of the damned in hell fire. That implies eternal tormenting of the wicked.
The worm does not die as it continually has something to consume. Same with the fire.

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

 

[marks]

You still apparently hold to a definition of death that does not fit the Bible.

Ephesians 2:1 LITV
and you being dead in deviations and sins,

How can this verse be true of someone living??

Much love!

This passage is true because sin separates us from God. That separation is death.

Isaiah 59:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2) But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

John 17:3 KJV
3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Colossians 2:13 KJV
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Much love!

 

[Raccoon1010]

The opposite of life.

There is spiritual death, where your still alive, and that is what the bible describes for sinning.

 

[marks]

You spoke earlier of this passage Marks, It seems the worms that eat the dead bodies never die, and the fire is never quenched. Don't see anything about "souls" in the belly's of the worms...? And, once they are eaten by the worms...are they not poof, gone?

One of the Targums, I think it was Jonathan, it was some years ago, it made mention that "their worm dieth not", that this referred to the remains of a man, that he is the worm, the destroyed man. "Their worm" would be another way of saying "their remains die not", something like that.

To me this relates to Psalm 22, "But I am a worm and not a man", prophesied of Jesus being crucified.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 17:3 KJV
3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing God is eternal life, not "remaining active/aware forever". People now are active/aware, but unless they know God, they are declared dead in trespasses, because they are separated from God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Colossians 2:13 KJV
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

"having forgiven you all trespasses", this is part of "hath he quickened". Sin separates us from God. Forgiveness of sin removes that barrier, and now we can know Him. Knowing Him is eternal life. He has made us alive, forgiving our sins.

Life and death here are not about awareness/activity. They are about knowing God, which is life, and separation from God, which is death.

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

One of the Targums, I think it was Jonathan, it was some years ago, it made mention that "their worm dieth not", that this referred to the remains of a man, that he is the worm, the destroyed man. "Their worm" would be another way of saying "their remains die not", something like that.

To me this relates to Psalm 22, "But I am a worm and not a man", prophesied of Jesus being crucified.

Much love!

This is the one I think of
saiah 41:14
Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Blue letter bible has this for the word 'worm'

תּוֺלֵעָה, תּוֺלַ֫עַת 40 noun feminine worm; — absolute תּוֺלֵעָה Isaiah 14:11; Job 25:6; תּוֺלַעַת Isaiah 41:14 +, תּוֺלָ֑עַת Deuteronomy 28:39; Numbers 19:6; construct תּוֺלַ֫עַת Exodus 25:4 +; suffix תּוֺלַעְתָּם Isaiah 66:24; —
1. worm, grub, vine-weevil Jonah 4:7; Deuteronomy 28:39 (collective); devouring the dead Isaiah 14:11 (collective: || רִמָּה), Isaiah 66:24 (collective) symbol of insignificance Isaiah 41:14; Job 25:6 (|| רִמָּה), Psalm 22:7.

A collective symbol of insignificance, that even though Jacob is tiny, God will help him. Which still is referring to a person as a worm. But if it really means that in other verses, not sure. It is however compelling.

 

[marks]

Revelation 20:12 LITV
12) And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works.

The dead, standing before God . . .

Much love!

Dead, but not inactive/unaware/non-existent. Not an idiom, not symbolic death, these are dead.

John! Write what you see!

I saw the dead.

Much love!

 

[marks]

2 Timothy 4:1 LITV
Then I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, He being about to judge the living and dead at His appearance and His kingdom:

Both are active/aware, the living and the dead.

Much love!