HERESY?

[Aunty Jane]

As Catholics we believe that a church building is the House of the Lord, He is with us in that building and that is why they are so ornate. Does God abhor ornate church buildings? 1 Kings, chapter 7 would seem to suggest just the opposite. It describes intricate workmanship, a golden altar and cherubim and pillars of copper or bronze for His temple. God was quite pleased with His house as His cloud settled into it and dwelt there.
I had to look up the word "ostentation" If you believe that God is unhappy that men have built beautiful, elaborate and ornate churches to honor Him then you would be wrong. I refer you back to 1 Kings chapter 7 and I would refer you to the Ark of the covenant that was commanded to be built and 1 Chronicles 22! So there you go. I have used Scripture to give you the reasons FOR ornate/elaborate Churches. Can you use Scripture to show that God is against it? Not your opinion...but Scripture!

Again, Christianity was not to emulate the Jewish faith which provided the symbolisms foreshadowing many heavenly things....with the introduction of the new covenant, those symbols were done away with because the worship of Christians no longer required them.

Although the Jews had a Scriptural basis for regarding Jerusalem as the center for worshiping their God, Jesus’ comments to the Samaritan woman at the well, showed that this arrangement for worship was not to continue.
John 2:20-22....
"Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus told her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

So as God's Temple for worship had only one location (in Jerusalem) and only at the Temple could sacrifices be offered.
Jesus returned to offer the value of his sacrifice to God in heaven...not on earth.
Hebrews 9:24-26....
"For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, so that he now appears in the presence of God on our behalf."

25 Nor was it his purpose to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters into the sanctuary year after year with the blood that is not his own. 26 For then he would have had to suffer over and over again since the creation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once and for all at the end of the ages to abolish sin by sacrificing himself."

So....the sacrifices, festivals, priesthood and the like, forming a part of the Jewish arrangement for worship, were a shadow of greater things in heaven.
“The Law contains little more than a shadow of the good things to come and not the true image of them. These sacrifices that are offered year after year can never bring the worshipers to perfection.” (Hebrews 10:1)

So, once Jesus died and returned to heaven, emulating Jewish worship was pointless.....Christianity was a new arrangement under a new covenant. The "shadows" were no longer necessary. Anywhere Christians gathered, Christ was there in their midst (Matthew 18:20)....providing that the ones who were rendering worship to Jehovah were doing so in accord with all his commands, and not in a ritualistic manner as before.

When the Romans destroyed God's Temple in 70C.E. it was razed to the ground as Jesus had foretold...."not a stone will be left upon a stone"....But since the Temple was required for sacrifices, if the Jewish system was to continue, then God would have had the Temple rebuilt....it never has for almost 2000 years.....and they still await their Messiah.....who never comes because of failed expectations, not because he just didn't show up.

In regard to your question: Did the first Christians meet for worship in buildings like these...?

Historically we know they didn't. They met in houses. The reason they could/did meet in houses is because there weren't very many Christians. As the Christian population grew they needed bigger meeting places so they built Churches. Also, they didn't have the money to build churches. Did you know that some of the first churches they built were over the houses of some of the people in the NT? Also, did you know that some of them were ornate? Not compared to todays standard..... but according to their standards at the time they were ornate none the less.

Are you trying to justify the ostentatious edifices that dot the landscape of every country in which mainstream Christianity is practiced?
Here are 22 of those cathedrals in various parts of the world....
22 of the Most Beautiful Cathedrals in the World

Now imagine who attended such edifices and how the poor could have benefited from the money spent currying favor with the rich, which is exactly what the pharisees did.
The Catholic church as well as other religious institutions are sitting on vast fortunes whilst their poor go hungry and without shelter...even in a wealthy country like the USA, thinking of itself as a "Christian" nation, the churches have the resources, but do not direct them to their own members in need.

There are many architecturally beautiful "churches" but the word in Greek means the congregated people, not the building.....so the building itself is of no consequence, once dedicated to God for worship, no matter how humble....it was what went on in those buildings that mattered....and what went on outside of them as well.

So you don't have any concerns about all the historical schisms in your denomination? You aren't concerned that historically your church is just a break away church from a break away church from a break away church of the Protestant Reformation (part of the fractured churches of Christendom)? Your not concerned that 1800 years after the death of Christ a man who was confused about Protestant teachings started your denomination based on his own teachings? I don't say this in a mean way. I really don't understand why you would "choose to become one" when one reads the history of your denomination.

It all depends on who wrote the history.....how many of the history book could be rewritten if the truth were actually told from both sides.....? So no, I know that my brotherhood has always tried their best to follow through on the Bible's teachings without the additions that came in over the centuries and corrupted the heck out of what Jesus started.....his words at Matthew 7:21-23 say it all to me......those who offer him their excuses as to why they did not do the will of his Father as they were commanded to do, will hear "I NEVER KNEW YOU, get away from me you workers of lawlessness"......in saying that to professed Christians, Jesus is showing that what is done "in his name" means nothing if there is no obedience to his teachings. When he says "I NEVER KNEW YOU"..."NEVER" means "NOT EVER"......so not in their whole existence has Jesus set foot in their elaborate buildings or corrupt institutions.

PS....What passage in Scriputre says that one MUST be immersed? I can't find it.

Jesus set the example....he was fully immersed in the waters of the Jordan River...
Matthew 3:16-17....
"After Jesus had been baptized, as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened and he beheld the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

The word "Baptized" ("baptizō") means..."to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)" (Strongs)
So no sprinkling of water, and no infant baptism because infants cannot make a solemn decision to become disciples of Christ.... and there is no proxy arrangement.

Once I left Christendom...I left all of it.

 

[Moriah's Song]

When heretics try to embed and entrench their false doctrines, and refuse to give them up, those teachings become heretical.

This is exactly what happened with dispensationalism that has infiltrated the churches today. Heresey in the early churches was not as easily spread around as it is today. With the invention of the printing press, it became much, much easier for someone like John Nelson Darby, Scofield and others to sell books, start colleges and seminaries to spread all kinds of ideas and this was one that got a strong foothold. It was during this period that the ones that are considered "cults" also became numerable within our country - the USA. Cults like Jehovah's Witnesses - a doctrine has very close resemblance to dispensationalism.

(Taken from Dictionary of Premillennial Theology by Mal Couch, General Editor)

"Producing some of the warmest and most cherished devotional commentaries in the history of dispensationalism, the evangelist, teacher, and pastor, H. A. Ironside (1876–1951) encouraged thousands of people across the English-speaking world to understand dispensational truth.

Ironside did not receive much of a formal education but was a self-taught student. He received an honorary doctorate (Litt.D.) from Wheaton College in 1930. Ironside became a nationally known Bible teacher with an itinerant teaching ministry, much like other leading dispensationalists of the first half of the twentieth century such as Arno C. Gaebelein. Ironside's traveling ministry included Bible conferences and seriatim teaching at institutions across the United States such as Moody Bible Institute and the Evangelical College (now Dallas Theological Seminary).

He showed the skills of a historian in A Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement (1942), which highlighted the development of the movement largely responsible for spreading the dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby which Ironside himself believed."​

(Taken from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Main article: Christian countercult movement

In the 1940s, the long-held opposition by some established Christian denominations to non-Christian religions and supposedly heretical or counterfeit Christian sects crystallized into a more organized Christian countercult movement in the United States. For those belonging to the movement, all religious groups claiming to be Christian, but deemed outside of Christian orthodoxy, were considered cults. Christian cults are new religious movements that have a Christian background but are considered to be theologically deviant by members of other Christian churches. In his influential book The Kingdom of the Cults (1965), Christian scholar Walter Martin defines Christian cults as groups that follow the personal interpretation of an individual, rather than the understanding of the Bible accepted by Nicene Christianity, providing the examples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Unity Church.​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It was a profile. I know what he teaches. Try searching "Origins of dispensationalis." You will find a pletora of information on him. Mauro is a good start on his writings.

lol

So instead of going to HIM. I should go to what someone else says about him.

Thats your problem. Like all people who think they KNW what we believe, You believe what you are TOLD we believe, and nt what we actually believe. And then you attack us as being false teachers. When you do nto even KNOW what we believe.

Here let me ask you something

Show me in the OT where we are told the MESSIAH will die for the sins of the people (please note. I need to see the word messiah. We are after the events. We need to look at the OT from the context as Mathew, mark luke john peter and ther est would have seen it BEFORE he Christ died.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was warned of this heresy by my pastor 40 years ago also and I am so thanful for it.

Ahh, I get it,

You were told what we believe. You have never actually studied it.

I love it when people come in and try to tell me what I believe and where my belief came from. Only to find out they only know what they were told by others.

I used to be like you, Blindly led by people I look up to. Pastors or priests or the people who were elders in my denomination. Much like MaryMog here. But I got out on my own, and I started to actually study. And found out a some of what I was taught, or thought I was taught was wrong. And instead of putting my hands up and fighting it, I dug deeper. I also had a few friends that would not let me dig in, they kept at me, kept pushing, (of course its alot easier in person, when you can all sit and open the word) And I finally found the truth, I finally did what we are told to do. Study to shew ourselves approved. Test each spirit

Alot of what I was told about others. I found to be in error. I started to ask THEM, instead of reading about them. Talk about a mind opening experience.

I hope and pray you do this. Because nothing you have shown me here shows me you understand what I and everyone I personally know believe.

Dispensational belief has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The only difference today, is we know WHO that faith is centered on.

While there is a sect of People who claim to believe that Israel were saved by Law. And during the 70th week, they will return to being saved by law. They are not mainstream. And we do not have fellowship with them because they teach a false gospel.

I do not follow Darby, I have never even read Anything he has written, I grew up with a scofield reference KJV, and when I was a teenager was given a Scofield reference NKJV bible. That is what I grew up with. I do not follow scofield. Scofield was a gap theorist. He had me convinced until I went to a creation museum abut 8 years ago. And started to study the creation account and the flood. I no longer am a GAP theorists. And have changed many things.

I follow what I study to be true, I test everything. I stopped being a man follower about 20 years ago. I would suggest you do the same

So You want to know what we believe, Ask. Don;t assume you know; and please do not judge what you do not know.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Show me in the OT where we are told the MESSIAH will die for the sins of the people (please note. I need to see the word messiah.

STRONGS H4899: (Hebrew)
4. Messianic prince, עַדמָֿשִׁיחַ נָגִיד Daniel 9:25 = מָשִׁיחַ Daniel 9:26

Daniel 9:25-26 "Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, [the Messiah] there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, [crucifiction] and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.​

STRONGS G3323: (Greek)
Μεσσίας

Μεσσίας, Μεσσιου (cf. Buttmann, 18 (16)), ὁ, Messiah; Chaldean מְשִׁיחָא, Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ, equivalent to Greek Χριστός, which see: John 1:41 (John 1:42); John 4:25.

Jhn 1:41 He first found his brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ)
Jhn 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things."​

Therefore the transliterations are:

Anointed means "Messiah" in Hebrew.
Messiah means "Christ" in Greek.​

Nobody disputes this.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Ahh, I get it,

You were told what we believe. You have never actually studied it.

I love it when people come in and try to tell me what I believe and where my belief came from. Only to find out they only know what they were told by others.

You are out of line in making the false claim that since my pastor told me to be aware of this false doctrine of dispensationalism it also means that througout my 40 years of examining it for myself, through scripture alone, along with many theologians agree that this "new" doctrine of "a man's idea is false by making it seem like I am a puppet that cannot read scripture and agree with those who have made it their lifes work to help us with being able to determine false doctrine that should not be in the church of Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

STRONGS H4899: (Hebrew)
4. Messianic prince, עַדמָֿשִׁיחַ נָגִיד Daniel 9:25 = מָשִׁיחַ Daniel 9:26

Daniel 9:25-26 "Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, [the Messiah] there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, [crucifiction] and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.​

STRONGS G3323: (Greek)
Μεσσίας

Μεσσίας, Μεσσιου (cf. Buttmann, 18 (16)), ὁ, Messiah; Chaldean מְשִׁיחָא, Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ, equivalent to Greek Χριστός, which see: John 1:41 (John 1:42); John 4:25.

Jhn 1:41 He first found his brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ)
Jhn 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things."​

Therefore the transliterations are:

Anointed means "Messiah" in Hebrew.
Messiah means "Christ" in Greek.​

Nobody disputes this.

Show me where messiah was said to die for the sins of the people

I know daniel 9, The 59th has ended, the 70th is yet future.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are out of line in making the false claim that since my pastor told me to be aware of this false doctrine of dispensationalism it also means that througout my 40 years of examining it for myself, through scripture alone, along with many theologians agree that this "new" doctrine of "a man's idea is false by making it seem like I am a puppet that cannot read scripture and agree with those who have made it their lifes work to help us with being able to determine false doctrine that should not be in the church of Christ?

Your out of line telling me what I believe.

Dispensationalism is not a doctrine. It is an attempt to break history and the future down into categories.

You still have not proven you even know what we believe.

 

[post]

Well yes.....Passover occurs on the 15th of Nisan....always and always on a full moon it starts the evening before.
The 14th of Nisan was on a Friday.
The Last Supper on a Thursday.

Gregorian calendar tuesday last supper, when Levitical calendar Pascha began, at sundown.
Gregorian calendar wednesday / Levitical calendar Nissan 14 crucifixion.
per Josephus, Israel slaughtered a national lamb in the temple at the moment Christ chose to lay down His life, and the veil rent.

in the earth for 3 days & nights:
((1)) wed. night / thurs. day = 15 Nissan = high sabbath of Unleavened Bread
((2)) thurs. night / fri. day = 16 Nissan = the women buy and prepare spices, not knowing Nicodemus had already done this prior to Pascha, because after John 3 Nicodemus, 'the' teacher of Israel, had the wisdom to figure out that Christ was going to lay down His life, and figured out when. he was ready, and Joseph was ready, having bought and prepared a new tomb and linen for burial.
((3)) fri. night / sat. day = 17 Nissan = weekly sabbath

He rose at some point after sunset ((i'm going to guess midnight)) on Gregorian calendar Saturday, which is in the Levitical calendar 18 Nissan, Firstfruits, the 8th day which is the 1st day of the week.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Show me where messiah was said to die for the sins of the people

Why don't you show me..."Where Messiah said that He would not die for the sins of the people?"

 

[Moriah's Song]

Your out of line telling me what I believe.

I have never told you what you believe. I have only posted a description of who, when and where the doctrine of dispensationalism came from.

Dispensationalism is not a doctrine.

Uh, yeah it is....Doctrine Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster.....Definition of doctrine. 1 a : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief

It is an attempt to break history and the future down into categories.

And that is how Darby and all his followers thereafter went astray.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why don'tyou show me..."Where Messiah said that He would not die for the sins of the people?"

In other words you can’t find it.

Its ok, You won’t. No place in the OT does it say the messiah Would die for the sin of the people. We are told a suffering servant would die for the sin of the people.

Its part of the great mystery paul spoke of.

it why the disciples were so confused when Jesus said he would die. Because they had no basis which to see that was what the messiah would do. If you look at the OT it appears to be two people.

1. The messiah, would never die. Would be looked up to. Would be served. Would be king would have an eternal kingdom

2. The suffering servant. Would be looked down on. Would come as a servant, would die a horrific death, would die for the sin of the people, would have no kingdom

The first advent was jesus coming as the servant who would die. Not as messiah. That was the hidden mystery.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have never told you what you believe. I have only posted a description of who, when and where the doctrine of dispensationalism came from.

And YOUR WRONG

Uh, yeah it is....Doctrine Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster.....Definition of doctrine. 1 a : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief

Um no it is not. Dispensationalism is a group of specific doctrines, It is not A doctrine

I have spent 40 years in this teaching, I think I know what it is.

And that is how Darby and all his followers thereafter went astray.

You want to know what we teach Salk me

Again, I do not follow Darby.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Hey Bloodbought, Thanks for joining the conversation....

Lol....That has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious freedom and each individual Christian having the authority to read the bible and interpret it on their own and come up with their own interpretation (truth).

If your theory were true then you can NEVER tell another Christian they are wrong in their interpretation of the truth. There would be no "truth" in Scripture if your theory were true. Scripture would only be opinion.

I never fully understood what this really meant or how far the the implications of it could go......I just kinda throw that verse out there from time to time.....you never hear anybody preach about it....

I think he goes beyond just talking about what you can eat or what days one should worship....

He seems to be saying he is free to do things that he wants to do, but he will not do things that could get a grip on him and control him......somebody should start a thread on this some time.....I would , but I’m too lazy.....lol....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I never fully understood what this really meant or how far the the implications of it could go......I just kinda throw that verse out there from time to time.....you never hear anybody preach about it....

We should just take it literally

All things are lawful. But not all things are profitable.

I can’t be judged eternally for what I do. All things are lawful

But I can do things which will not profit me, in fact it may hurt me. May even kill me

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Scripture is clear....No one will be saved by law!
Romans 3:28...“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

“ By The Law NO MAN will be Justified”

 

[Moriah's Song]

In other words you can’t find it.

You have a serious contradiction when you said...

No place in the OT does it say the messiah Would die for the sin of the people. We are told a suffering servant would die for the sin of the people.

The same person is the "Messiah" and the "suffering servant". Did you not look at the post that said that those two word meant the same, but in different languages, and was taken out of Strong's Concordance that showed that the OT Hebrew word for "Messiah" is the same NT word for "Christ?"

Its ok, You won’t. No place in the OT does it say the messiah Would die for the sin of the people. We are told a suffering servant would die for the sin of the people.

And your verse for that is what? So who told you that "a suffering servant would die for the sin of the people?"

 

[Grailhunter]

Gregorian calendar tuesday last supper, when Levitical calendar Pascha began, at sundown.
Gregorian calendar wednesday / Levitical calendar Nissan 14 crucifixion.
per Josephus, Israel slaughtered a national lamb in the temple at the moment Christ chose to lay down His life, and the veil rent.

in the earth for 3 days & nights:
((1)) wed. night / thurs. day = 15 Nissan = high sabbath of Unleavened Bread
((2)) thurs. night / fri. day = 16 Nissan = the women buy and prepare spices, not knowing Nicodemus had already done this prior to Pascha, because after John 3 Nicodemus, 'the' teacher of Israel, had the wisdom to figure out that Christ was going to lay down His life, and figured out when. he was ready, and Joseph was ready, having bought and prepared a new tomb and linen for burial.
((3)) fri. night / sat. day = 17 Nissan = weekly sabbath

He rose at some point after sunset ((i'm going to guess midnight)) on Gregorian calendar Saturday, which is in the Levitical calendar 18 Nissan, Firstfruits, the 8th day which is the 1st day of the week.

Nope. But if it makes you feel better about the math of the resurrection, I am thinking that Peter will not be handing out a quiz at the pearly gates.

 

[Davy]

We know that in order to be born again, we must first die, right? So God narrows it down to where does sin reside? In the nature. So which part of the soul, spirit and joints and marrow makes up our nature?

Romans 8:9-10
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

When we are born again and our nature changes, it is our conduct that is affected. So think. What controls our conduct? Our joints and marrow? No they move because of our mind and emotions which includes our heart where the laws of God become a new part of us. Therefore, the spirit and soul/mind and emotions/heart are the areas of rebirth, making our mortal spirit become immortal. So, in your question - numbers 1 and 2, are referred by Paul as our "flesh," our carnal nature, which becomes indwelt by God. Our carnal nature has been nailed to the cross, and we rise up in this life as born again Christians. Our body of joints and marrow does not become new yet. It has yet to die, but is headed in that direction, but is at the end of our life. Then at the resurrection it also changes and becomes immortal and joins together again with the spirit and soul to live with God forever.

Our flesh has its wants and desires, which our spirit battles against. Don't you remember that Jesus said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak? So while here on earth in a flesh body, our spirit inside struggles with our flesh. Our spirit-soul doesn't put on immortality in Christ Jesus until His future return and the change at the twinkling of an eye. Even then, the spirit-soul of the "resurrection of damnation" will still be in a mortal liable to perish state at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

Our flesh body, its joints and marrow, will never... become new. Don't you remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? Christ's Salvation for the saved is to a "spiritual body", not another flesh body, nor the flesh body we had in this present world. Remember Jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit (John 3). Our spirit inside our flesh is what is 'born again', and will put on immortality at Christ's future return. As of right now though, per Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:17, our Faith on Christ Jesus has made us a "new creature", showing there is some kind of change that happens to our spirit by The Spirit of John 3 when we believe on Jesus Christ in this world.

 

[Taken]

“ By The Law NO MAN will be Justified”

^5 :)